Flames Defense

[cross16]

13 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

So far Smith is giving me flashbacks to Kipper-- in the sense that the biggest change Kipper made is he kept us in games early , until we got over our notorious slow starts.

I am curious tho, while we do still seem to be getting a high number of shots allowed, what are the quality of those shots in comparison to last year ?  Anybody know the High / medium/ Low danger breakdown as compared to last year ?

 

http://www.naturalstattrick.com/ is a great site to check out for stuff like this. They don't break down Low-Med-High but they break down a lot of other data. The sites I use for Low-Med-High danger are goalie stat only sites and they generally don't break that down until the season is complete. Doesn't mean they don't exist I just don't have one.

 

I did look at the 5 on 5 data though last year to this year per 60 mins. I'll post this year's number and whether its higher.

Shots against - 31.92 an increase of 3.3 from last year. however, worth nothing that the median increase league wide is just shy of 1 extra shot per game given the way NHL counts shots now. 

GAA - 2.22 verus 2.24 last year

Scoring Changes against - 27.55. an Increase of 2.4 over last year.

High danger Scoring changes against - 10.31 and increase of 0.5 over last year. 

 

The stats are a little worse when you include all strengths but that underscores how bad the PK is this year and how much the PK is dragging them down.

[Thebrewcrew]

The guys on the 960 morning show mentioned this a few days back and I tend to agree. The Boston Bruins have up on a 21 year old RH shot D man in exchange for nothing but futures. At the time it felt like the Flames had made out like bandits in the deal. But maybe Boston saw something in him. Warrener mentioned that he doesn't think Hamilton cares, which I absolutely agree with, Hamilton shows absolutely nothing that makes me think he is a competitor. Not to mention we have to have his brother on the roster to keep him happy.

[cccsberg]

7 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

The guys on the 960 morning show mentioned this a few days back and I tend to agree. The Boston Bruins have up on a 21 year old RH shot D man in exchange for nothing but futures. At the time it felt like the Flames had made out like bandits in the deal. But maybe Boston saw something in him. Warrener mentioned that he doesn't think Hamilton cares, which I absolutely agree with, Hamilton shows absolutely nothing that makes me think he is a competitor. Not to mention we have to have his brother on the roster to keep him happy.

Absolutely.  We should dump GG and get a hard Hash Rate, yet enlightened coach, send Freddie to Stockton and bench whoever doesn't want to play tough.   

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Absolutely.  We should dump GG and get a hard Hash Rate, yet enlightened coach, send Freddie to Stockton and bench whoever doesn't want to play tough.   

 

Freddie needs to go through waivers again.

[cccsberg]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Freddie needs to go through waivers again.

Great, the first of several, I'd think.

 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

Great, the first of several, I'd think.

 

 

Freddie, Stajan, and...

[MAC331]

14 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

The guys on the 960 morning show mentioned this a few days back and I tend to agree. The Boston Bruins have up on a 21 year old RH shot D man in exchange for nothing but futures. At the time it felt like the Flames had made out like bandits in the deal. But maybe Boston saw something in him. Warrener mentioned that he doesn't think Hamilton cares, which I absolutely agree with, Hamilton shows absolutely nothing that makes me think he is a competitor. Not to mention we have to have his brother on the roster to keep him happy.

I disagree, Hamilton has talent, mostly on the offensive side but still need work with his defensive game. Guys like Warrener that had to work extremely hard to play the game at a high level are jealous of those that come by their talents naturally. Now the other side of that coin is players with natural talent don't work as hard as the others at times and need to be pushed. I know they shouldn't have to be but some do.

I think someone made up this stuff regarding Freddie, we have needed someone like him mostly because our regulars played but this season we have better talent to try and fit in. This is the season he should be in Stockton.

[jjgallow]

 

So, been saying for a while on here now that our D is over-rated.   Received a lot of slack for it.  Smith has played some fantastic hockey in 2017.   And we're still a bubble team.  We gave up First Round picks, to be a bubble team riding on the hot streak of a 35 year old G.

 

So that can only go in one direction.  Andersson and Kylington both look promising but not quite ready.   Andersson should be able to move up next season, and that will be a nice addition but will take time before he is effective.

 

Whatever we do, we need to stop talking about giving up picks.  For one, we have none left.  For two, that's what gets us into these messes.

 

The Flames need more quality D prospects.   IMHO, they should sign some, because they exist out there.

 

But as the trade deadline slowly approaches, the big question looming, like every year, is if the Flames are buyers or sellers.   And I should surely hope that if they're just a bubble team (or worse), then they're sellers.   Which brings up Brodie, Gio, and our centers.   Backlund included (he's never been more valuable).

 

Unlikely to get our first back for Hamonic but we could always try.

 

So this will be an unpopular post, but we are back in a situation again (we're back to the top 10 oldest NHL teams, and it's not all Jagr's fault)  where we need to get younger and we started giving up picks WAY, way too soon.  http://nhlnumbers.com/team-salaries

 

I don't see any quick fixes.

[MAC331]

9 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

So, been saying for a while on here now that our D is over-rated.   Received a lot of slack for it.  Smith has played some fantastic hockey in 2017.   And we're still a bubble team.  We gave up First Round picks, to be a bubble team riding on the hot streak of a 35 year old G.

 

So that can only go in one direction.  Andersson and Kylington both look promising but not quite ready.   Andersson should be able to move up next season, and that will be a nice addition but will take time before he is effective.

 

Whatever we do, we need to stop talking about giving up picks.  For one, we have none left.  For two, that's what gets us into these messes.

 

The Flames need more quality D prospects.   IMHO, they should sign some, because they exist out there.

 

But as the trade deadline slowly approaches, the big question looming, like every year, is if the Flames are buyers or sellers.   And I should surely hope that if they're just a bubble team (or worse), then they're sellers.   Which brings up Brodie, Gio, and our centers.   Backlund included (he's never been more valuable).

 

Unlikely to get our first back for Hamonic but we could always try.

 

So this will be an unpopular post, but we are back in a situation again (we're back to the top 10 oldest NHL teams, and it's not all Jagr's fault)  where we need to get younger and we started giving up picks WAY, way too soon.  http://nhlnumbers.com/team-salaries

 

I don't see any quick fixes.

Quick fixes become band-aids and this team doesn't need them. What they need to do is keep adding quality players. Whether our D is over-rated or not they are all good players and have value. You can't keep giving up just because your team hits some rough spots during a season. Some on here think it is the end of the world as we know it with every loss. I see us having a better team next season rather than this one. We have core players still gaining the required experienced to win on a regular consistent basis.

[Thebrewcrew]

12 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

So this will be an unpopular post, but we are back in a situation again (we're back to the top 10 oldest NHL teams, and it's not all Jagr's fault)  where we need to get younger and we started giving up picks WAY, way too soon.  http://nhlnumbers.com/team-salaries

 

I don't see any quick fixes.

We overpayed for Hamonic for sure, but BT felt he had to as DET and TOR were interested in Hamonic. My only issue is BT not getting the 1st lotto protected, that could really bite us, my greatest fear is we miss and have this be the year the lotto balls fall our way... Prior to the trade the guy I wanted was Demers from FLA, ARI got him for McGinn... surely BT could have made acquired him since the price was so low.

 

I think we will be younger next year. Versteeg's career may be pretty well over after hip surgery, he won't be brought back, neither will Stajan and Brouwer needs to be bought out. I'd like to have prospects like Mangiapane, Klimchuk and Dube make the jump next year. The way the game is trending you need 4 lines that can play and score. Right now we don't have that largely due to the anchors we have on our 4th line.

[jjgallow]

36 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Quick fixes become band-aids and this team doesn't need them. What they need to do is keep adding quality players.

 

You have to give something to get something.   I presume you mean giving up more draft picks, whereas I mean giving up some now for the future.

 

36 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Whether our D is over-rated or not they are all good players and have value.

 

I'm a good hockey player in my beer league and I have value, so you're right.   They must too.    

 

36 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

You can't keep giving up just because your team hits some rough spots during a season.

 

Exactly, and when we shell out quality draft picks to deal with those rough spots, that is exactly what we are doing...giving up.   On our Future.   Stop That.   Look what the Las Vegas Knights did with nothing.   There are no excuses for not being a competitive team in the now, even if the organization doens't want to give up on it's future, and maybe even wants to add to it a bit.

 

36 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Some on here think it is the end of the world as we know it with every loss.

 

Like the Flames did when they acquired Hamonic

 

36 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I see us having a better team next season rather than this one. We have core players still gaining the required experienced to win on a regular consistent basis.

 

Our core players, if you consider defensemen and goalies core players, are on average quite old with the exception of a very few (Hamilton) and well past the point where we should be expecting improvement.     Our forwards are younger but with the exception of Tkachuk, also past or at their peak production levels.   Once again, we are in the top 10 for oldest teams in the NHL.   With not much changing that for the younger next year, other than maybe releasing Jagr/Smith (for whom we have no solid replacement plans for).

 

I'm hopeful as well, but I'm looking beyond this season, and even next season, to be hopeful.   And I'm dissapointed with so many of the short term decisions made to appease people who only care about the now.    It's like those parents that buy kids stuff out shopping to stop them from crying.

[jjgallow]

46 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

We overpayed for Hamonic for sure, but BT felt he had to as DET and TOR were interested in Hamonic.

 

BT was clearly wrong if he felt like he "had" to do anything, and over-estimated his own abilities to put together a contender.  Wrong is wrong....if we were competing for top 5 in the NHL then we could debate how his move might be justified.  Might.   He pulled a contender move without a contender.   And we will pay for it for years to come.

 

46 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

My only issue is BT not getting the 1st lotto protected, that could really bite us, my greatest fear is we miss and have this be the year the lotto balls fall our way... Prior to the trade the guy I wanted was Demers from FLA, ARI got him for McGinn... surely BT could have made acquired him since the price was so low.

 

100% agree

 

46 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think we will be younger next year. Versteeg's career may be pretty well over after hip surgery, he won't be brought back, neither will Stajan and Brouwer needs to be bought out. I'd like to have prospects like Mangiapane, Klimchuk and Dube make the jump next year. The way the game is trending you need 4 lines that can play and score. Right now we don't have that largely due to the anchors we have on our 4th line.

 

Dube's not ready, Klimchuk likely isn't good enough, Mangiapane, I'm looking forward to that.  Possibly Andersson too.

 

We'll bring a couple up from the farm.   They won't be big minute eaters, they won't stop our core from aging.   We are old and we don't have solutions to get young.   We might get younger, I agree....but not likely better.   Not until our 2016 and 2017 draft picks are NHL ready (good picks).   

[DirtyDeeds]

58 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

We overpayed for Hamonic for sure, but BT felt he had to as DET and TOR were interested in Hamonic. My only issue is BT not getting the 1st lotto protected, that could really bite us, my greatest fear is we miss and have this be the year the lotto balls fall our way... Prior to the trade the guy I wanted was Demers from FLA, ARI got him for McGinn... surely BT could have made acquired him since the price was so low.

 

I think we will be younger next year. Versteeg's career may be pretty well over after hip surgery, he won't be brought back, neither will Stajan and Brouwer needs to be bought out. I'd like to have prospects like Mangiapane, Klimchuk and Dube make the jump next year. The way the game is trending you need 4 lines that can play and score. Right now we don't have that largely due to the anchors we have on our 4th line.

If we are a playoff team then there is no lotto balls falling our way. BT has been building this team to win now.. not via the lottery chance.

 

We all ant our prospects to make the jump. Most are not ready. Go Janks....

[DirtyDeeds]

58 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

We overpayed for Hamonic for sure, but BT felt he had to as DET and TOR were interested in Hamonic. My only issue is BT not getting the 1st lotto protected, that could really bite us, my greatest fear is we miss and have this be the year the lotto balls fall our way... Prior to the trade the guy I wanted was Demers from FLA, ARI got him for McGinn... surely BT could have made acquired him since the price was so low.

 

I think we will be younger next year. Versteeg's career may be pretty well over after hip surgery, he won't be brought back, neither will Stajan and Brouwer needs to be bought out. I'd like to have prospects like Mangiapane, Klimchuk and Dube make the jump next year. The way the game is trending you need 4 lines that can play and score. Right now we don't have that largely due to the anchors we have on our 4th line.

If we are a playoff team then there is no lotto balls falling our way. BT has been building this team to win now.. not via the lottery chance.

 

We all want our prospects to make the jump. Most are not ready. Go Janks....

[MAC331]

16 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

You have to give something to get something.   I presume you mean giving up more draft picks, whereas I mean giving up some now for the future.

 

 

I'm a good hockey player in my beer league and I have value, so you're right.   They must too.    

 

 

Exactly, and when we shell out quality draft picks to deal with those rough spots, that is exactly what we are doing...giving up.   On our Future.   Stop That.   Look what the Las Vegas Knights did with nothing.   There are no excuses for not being a competitive team in the now, even if the organization doens't want to give up on it's future, and maybe even wants to add to it a bit.

 

 

Like the Flames did when they acquired Hamonic

 

 

Our core players, if you consider defensemen and goalies core players, are on average quite old with the exception of a very few (Hamilton) and well past the point where we should be expecting improvement.     Our forwards are younger but with the exception of Tkachuk, also past or at their peak production levels.   Once again, we are in the top 10 for oldest teams in the NHL.   With not much changing that for the younger next year, other than maybe releasing Jagr/Smith (for whom we have no solid replacement plans for).

 

I'm hopeful as well, but I'm looking beyond this season, and even next season, to be hopeful.   And I'm dissapointed with so many of the short term decisions made to appease people who only care about the now.    It's like those parents that buy kids stuff out shopping to stop them from crying.

There is a time and place to use draft picks to fill immediate needs and our RSD was in need of a fix big time. Hamonic will pan out to be worth it, easy to kick players when they aren't playing well. I think our pipeline is well stocked given the age and replacement requirements that are coming up in our future and I'm sure BT took this into consideration. Why do you sneak these quips in about "no solid replacement plan for" Smith when we have Rittich, Gilles, Parsons, MacDonald and Schneider ? You are the one always going off about building through the draft and developing from within but put no faith in what's there. I just think you are a chronic complainer that knows very little about player development or what it take to run and operate a hockey operation.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

There is a time and place to use draft picks to fill immediate needs and our RSD was in need of a fix big time.

 

That time and place is when, and only when, you're a contender and need a difference maker for the cup.   Which we were not, and which Hamonic wasn't.

 

Every single team in the NHL had holes to fill and we were the only ones that coughed up 2018 first rounders to do it.

 

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Hamonic will pan out to be worth it,

 

Zero chance of that at this point.

 

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

easy to kick players when they aren't playing well.

 

Very easy.  That's why I'm not kicking Hamonic.  I'm kicking management.

 

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I think our pipeline is well stocked given the age and replacement requirements that are coming up in our future and I'm sure BT took this into consideration. Why do you sneak these quips in about "no solid replacement plan for" Smith when we have Rittich, Gilles, Parsons, MacDonald and Schneider ?

 

That's a different thread, but almost nobody is "happy" with our goaltender pipeline right now.   That's not just me, that's the majority.   If we're talking about a replacement for a starting goaltender, right now the only remaining prospect in our pipeline with that projection is Parsons.   That's it.   And he's struggling.  As well as being a long ways off.  He will never replace Smith directly.  Someone else will do that and it likely won't be anyone you mentioned above.

 

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

You are the one always going off about building through the draft and developing from within but put no faith in what's there. I just think you are a chronic complainer that knows very little about player development or what it take to run and operate a hockey operation.

 

I think that makes for a poor and childish arguement, personally.   But you're free to think whatever you want.    As long as we're clear that coughing up our first round picks is not "building through the draft".   Basically the polar opposite.  

[MAC331]

12 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

That time and place is when, and only when, you're a contender and need a difference maker for the cup.   Which we were not, and which Hamonic wasn't.

 

Every single team in the NHL had holes to fill and we were the only ones that coughed up 2018 first rounders to do it.

 

 

Zero chance of that at this point.

 

 

Very easy.  That's why I'm not kicking Hamonic.  I'm kicking management.

 

 

That's a different thread, but almost nobody is "happy" with our goaltender pipeline right now.   That's not just me, that's the majority.   If we're talking about a replacement for a starting goaltender, right now the only remaining prospect in our pipeline with that projection is Parsons.   That's it.   And he's struggling.  As well as being a long ways off.  He will never replace Smith directly.  Someone else will do that and it likely won't be anyone you mentioned above.

 

 

I think that makes for a poor and childish arguement, personally.   But you're free to think whatever you want.    As long as we're clear that coughing up our first round picks is not "building through the draft".   Basically the polar opposite.  

I guess you will never understand the state of the organization when you really have no clue about the current talent level within it. Picks are currency whether they round 1,2 or 3 if you have to pay higher than the next team so be it, as a GM make the decision and live with it. You try to come off like you are the VP of Player Development hardly. LOL

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

That's a different thread, but almost nobody is "happy" with our goaltender pipeline right now.   That's not just me, that's the majority.   If we're talking about a replacement for a starting goaltender, right now the only remaining prospect in our pipeline with that projection is Parsons.   That's it.   And he's struggling.  As well as being a long ways off.  He will never replace Smith directly.  Someone else will do that and it likely won't be anyone you mentioned above.

 

 

I think you are not happy with the prospect development, which is another argument.  The biggest problem is that we don't have anyone lighting it up this early in the season in the AHL.  Are you ready to give up on Gillies?  He's had exactly one full season in the AHL.  Add to that 7 and 12 games in separate seasons.  If you look at a guy like Talbot, he spent 3 full seasons in the AHL before he started to put up decent numbers.

 

This year both Gillies and Rittich have faced far too many shots per game.  And they both put up decent stats.  I would have preferred that Gillies be brought up for a season as a true backup, but that was given to Lack.  

 

We can agree on one thing.  The backup position is not being well managed here.  It should be the next starter getting reps.  I think they only picked Rittich because he can come in cold as a backup better than Gillies.  

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I guess you will never understand the state of the organization when you really have no clue about the current talent level within it. Picks are currency whether they round 1,2 or 3 if you have to pay higher than the next team so be it, as a GM make the decision and live with it. You try to come off like you are the VP of Player Development hardly. LOL

 

Well you've done a great job at being so vague it sort of brings an end to the discussion as after the blind insults are removed, there's nothing left that you're saying.   Also, this has nothing to do with player development, Hamonic is a vet and picks are picks.   But whatever.

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

I think you are not happy with the prospect development, which is another argument.  The biggest problem is that we don't have anyone lighting it up this early in the season in the AHL.  Are you ready to give up on Gillies?  He's had exactly one full season in the AHL.  Add to that 7 and 12 games in separate seasons.  If you look at a guy like Talbot, he spent 3 full seasons in the AHL before he started to put up decent numbers.

 

This year both Gillies and Rittich have faced far too many shots per game.  And they both put up decent stats.  I would have preferred that Gillies be brought up for a season as a true backup, but that was given to Lack.  

 

Well if anything, I was really trying to talk about the Hamonic trade, and our situation on defense.   I believe I made a remark somewhere about goaltending and it's sort of had some people gravitate to it.   All I was aluding to really was the age of our core (especially D and G) and how we're not in a position to be handing over draft picks.    In terms of defense, I don't know that our prospect development is that bad....but certainly if we don't draft any prospects to develop down the road, that's a problem.

 

Gillies....far from giving up on him.   He still has a starter NHL goalie ceiling, but I'm not sure I would project him as a future starter at this point, if that makes any sense.   Have not Yet seen the improvement we need to for that.   But, another thread.

 

4 hours ago, travel_dude said:

We can agree on one thing.  The backup position is not being well managed here.  It should be the next starter getting reps.  I think they only picked Rittich because he can come in cold as a backup better than Gillies.  

 

Yes we can.

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well if anything, I was really trying to talk about the Hamonic trade, and our situation on defense.   I believe I made a remark somewhere about goaltending and it's sort of had some people gravitate to it.   All I was aluding to really was the age of our core (especially D and G) and how we're not in a position to be handing over draft picks.    In terms of defense, I don't know that our prospect development is that bad....but certainly if we don't draft any prospects to develop down the road, that's a problem.

 

Gillies....far from giving up on him.   He still has a starter NHL goalie ceiling, but I'm not sure I would project him as a future starter at this point, if that makes any sense.   Have not Yet seen the improvement we need to for that.   But, another thread.

 

 

Yes we can.

Other than Gio our core D ranges from 24-27 which is usually prime for defensemen as D does take longer to translate from junior or Euro leagues.

In goal we are indeed betting the farm on 35 year old Smith as the Flames really do seem to have a blind spot as far as developing goalies. The last top ender we had was Kipper who we had to trade for. But as long as I can remember goalies when they finally become greats have a tendancy to play to higher ages. From Sawchuk to the current Lindqvist & Luongo the best seem to last a while. Patrick Roy & Marty Brodeur are 2 more that were good well into their 40s. It would be nice to have 1 developed in house for a change. Goalies are a different breed to start but it's funny how even where they were developed as youths goes in cycles. For a while it was PQ, the Finland & recently the US seems to have 1 heck of a system based on what we see in the WJC.

Up front the core is still young with Monahan, Gaudreau & Tkackuk.

[Red_Floyd]

The most criminally wrong thing on this team is how stone is not getting more ice time (especially on the PP). He makes smart plays and uses his body well. He has THEE best shot from a defenseman on the team. I'd take him over hamonic any day, even Dougie. 

 

Worst move flames ever did was giving away top two picks for a dman that plays like he should be bottom six. I'm getting sick of it. 

 

Give Stone more responsibility. 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Other than Gio our core D ranges from 24-27 which is usually prime for defensemen as D does take longer to translate from junior or Euro leagues.

In goal we are indeed betting the farm on 35 year old Smith as the Flames really do seem to have a blind spot as far as developing goalies. The last top ender we had was Kipper who we had to trade for. But as long as I can remember goalies when they finally become greats have a tendancy to play to higher ages. From Sawchuk to the current Lindqvist & Luongo the best seem to last a while. Patrick Roy & Marty Brodeur are 2 more that were good well into their 40s. It would be nice to have 1 developed in house for a change. Goalies are a different breed to start but it's funny how even where they were developed as youths goes in cycles. For a while it was PQ, the Finland & recently the US seems to have 1 heck of a system based on what we see in the WJC.

Up front the core is still young with Monahan, Gaudreau & Tkackuk.

 

So ....I just want to know one thing...did you post this praise of our D before, or after, you found out your team won it's first game ever by beating the Flames a million to nothing?  (or something like that)....   Your timing could not have been better

[cross16]

Problem I had with acquiring Hamonic is you paid a premium price for a guy coming off a terrible year and a half. I could understand a rolling of the dice to see if he could go back to the Hamonic of a few years ago but then the price should reflect that. Flames paid a premium for a player who was one of the worst performing Dmen in the NHL last year, it was not a very shrewd moving on Trelivings part and unfortunately its blowing up in his face. 

 

I know we can talk about Hamilton and how he struggled when he first got here but I don't believe the situations are the same. Hamonic has been this bad for well over a season now and because this is becoming the norm, not the exception, i've basically lost all hope he can be fixed. When I watch him play I don't see it being a fit issue I just think he's  overrated and the knee injuries he's suffered has really sucked his foot speed. 

[Flyerfan52]

12 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

So ....I just want to know one thing...did you post this praise of our D before, or after, you found out your team won it's first game ever by beating the Flames a million to nothing?  (or something like that)....   Your timing could not have been better

 

Look @ the time stamp.