Flames Defense

[travel_dude]

What do you mean I need to look closer? it seems pretty clear that hamilton is better without russell then with, and russell is better with hamilton then without, even if you take half the ice time.

You are right, I misread your comments.  I thought you said you didn't agree.  Need to read closer next time.   

[cross16]

Tyler Spurgeon and the Wild today agreed on a 4 year deal worth 20.75 Million. 5.1/season.

 

Spurgeon is probably the closest comprable you can have to Russel. Both are smaller stature players, stat lines similar (edge to Russell last year, Spurgeon this yera) and even advanced stats are close. Gives you a good idea what Russell could potetnially commmand on open market and basically confirms he will likely be gone. Flames should not pay Russell anywhere close to that. 

[MAC331]

Tyler Spurgeon and the Wild today agreed on a 4 year deal worth 20.75 Million. 5.1/season.

 

Spurgeon is probably the closest comprable you can have to Russel. Both are smaller stature players, stat lines similar (edge to Russell last year, Spurgeon this yera) and even advanced stats are close. Gives you a good idea what Russell could potetnially commmand on open market and basically confirms he will likely be gone. Flames should not pay Russell anywhere close to that. 

How can MIN afford to pay that figure, what were they comparing him to ? this seems ridiculous.

[travel_dude]

Tyler Spurgeon and the Wild today agreed on a 4 year deal worth 20.75 Million. 5.1/season.

 

Spurgeon is probably the closest comprable you can have to Russel. Both are smaller stature players, stat lines similar (edge to Russell last year, Spurgeon this yera) and even advanced stats are close. Gives you a good idea what Russell could potetnially commmand on open market and basically confirms he will likely be gone. Flames should not pay Russell anywhere close to that. 

 

Pass on that deal.  If that is the going rate, then we should be able to get a tidy haul from dealing Russell.  

[cross16]

How can MIN afford to pay that figure, what were they comparing him to ? this seems ridiculous.

 

Any half decent top 4 dman these days is going to get 4-4.5/year, that is just the going rate. Add in that Spurgeon has a RH shot and you get to 5 mill pretty easily. 

 

Minny has a pretty healthy cap situation. They lose 4 mill of Backstrom this offseason and Spurgeon was already counting 2.6 so its not a massive raise. Bit surprising in that they are deep on D and Dumba is coming off his ELC though but depth on D is never a bad thing. 

[tincup1]

Maybe I haven't seen much of Jared Spurgeon but wow !  The Flames clearly can't pay Russell anything close to that.  if they can find a new home for Smid maybe they can go to $4 million but I can't see them going higher.  Between Hickey, Wotherspoon, Seiloff, Mattsson, Kylington or Anderrson, the Flames look like they'll have someone move into the top 6 from within.  The Flames D is expensive enough and they need to grow someone.

[robrob1974]

I really don't understand the Cap. It was put in place to keep salaries from getting too high, making sure teams have a level playing field, and having GMs manage themselves. But the salaries keep getting inflated and teams have troubles by spending to the Cap, while some teams can't afford to pay what the "going rate" is. The going rate sure makes teams less competitive in the long run. I understand it's part of the game now, but I just don't think the inflated salaries is viable in the NHL as the revenues just aren't there to sustain it. Especially with teams that don't make money. 

 

There's no way you keep Russell. Although, I am not really interested in signing Russell anyway. 

 

We're so lucky to have Brodie on a friendly contract for a few years. He will be worth a lot more once his contract is up. 

[CheersMan]

I really don't understand the Cap. It was put in place to keep salaries from getting too high, making sure teams have a level playing field, and having GMs manage themselves. But the salaries keep getting inflated and teams have troubles by spending to the Cap, while some teams can't afford to pay what the "going rate" is. The going rate sure makes teams less competitive in the long run. I understand it's part of the game now, but I just don't think the inflated salaries is viable in the NHL as the revenues just aren't there to sustain it. Especially with teams that don't make money. 

 

There's no way you keep Russell. Although, I am not really interested in signing Russell anyway. 

 

We're so lucky to have Brodie on a friendly contract for a few years. He will be worth a lot more once his contract is up. 

 

Without a Cap, all the good players would gravitate toward a few teams in the biggest markets, the ones with endless open wallets.  A few teams in this league could afford to pay every player on their team $20M dollars annually and still turn a profit, if there was no Cap.  That would be less healthy for the league than keeping everyone on a level playing field.  The Cap also protects the owners from themselves ensuring they make even more $$$.

[Jessemadnote39]

I'm actually really thankful for Wideman's contract if it means we can't afford Russell long term.

All this talk about RHS D, I think Calgary needs to target a LHS stable, possesion driving guy to play with Dougie. The summer of 2017 will be fun for us fans.

[MAC331]

I really don't understand the Cap. It was put in place to keep salaries from getting too high, making sure teams have a level playing field, and having GMs manage themselves. But the salaries keep getting inflated and teams have troubles by spending to the Cap, while some teams can't afford to pay what the "going rate" is. The going rate sure makes teams less competitive in the long run. I understand it's part of the game now, but I just don't think the inflated salaries is viable in the NHL as the revenues just aren't there to sustain it. Especially with teams that don't make money. 

 

There's no way you keep Russell. Although, I am not really interested in signing Russell anyway. 

 

We're so lucky to have Brodie on a friendly contract for a few years. He will be worth a lot more once his contract is up. 

I have nothing against Russell at all however he is really a 3rd pairing (flex) type defenceman that can give you time on the 2nd pairing if an injury occurs. I think he is being paid his value now and if he demands are more we won't be able to afford him.

I would rather see BT go hard after Hamonic to complete our top 4 defensemen and begin using the bottom pairing to bring in our good defensive prospects. In order to do this you have to trade Russell and Wideman eventually while waiting for Smid and Engelland's contracts to end.

[cross16]

I really don't understand the Cap. It was put in place to keep salaries from getting too high, making sure teams have a level playing field, and having GMs manage themselves. But the salaries keep getting inflated and teams have troubles by spending to the Cap, while some teams can't afford to pay what the "going rate" is. The going rate sure makes teams less competitive in the long run. I understand it's part of the game now, but I just don't think the inflated salaries is viable in the NHL as the revenues just aren't there to sustain it. Especially with teams that don't make money. 

 

There's no way you keep Russell. Although, I am not really interested in signing Russell anyway. 

 

We're so lucky to have Brodie on a friendly contract for a few years. He will be worth a lot more once his contract is up. 

 

Not really. Cap was put in for cost certaintity so they could link salaires to revenues. In the old system there was no link so salary growth could actually outpace revenue growth but now that can't happen. Rising salaries is actually a godo thing for the NHL becuase it means their revenues are going up to. The big difference now is there is a limited pool of money where before there was an unlimited pool essentially. If the Spurgeon contracrt is a bad contract it really only shoots a few teams in the foot, but under the old system if you signed a bad deal you shot the entire league in the foot. 

 

Was never about supressing salaries, it was about linking costs to revenues. 

[travel_dude]

I have nothing against Russell at all however he is really a 3rd pairing (flex) type defenceman that can give you time on the 2nd pairing if an injury occurs. I think he is being paid his value now and if he demands are more we won't be able to afford him.

I would rather see BT go hard after Hamonic to complete our top 4 defensemen and begin using the bottom pairing to bring in our good defensive prospects. In order to do this you have to trade Russell and Wideman eventually while waiting for Smid and Engelland's contracts to end.

 

Agreed about Russell.  Nice to have, but he isn't top 4 material.  Ideal #5 guy, and I can live with Engelland for now.  Would be nice to have a farm kid as a 6/7 guy to rotate in, but really only Nakladal is NHL ready.  Kulak is getting there.  Ideally we move Wideman in the off-season and Russell before TDL.  We aren't going to get Hamonic before the summer.

 

One year remaining Engelland and two more on Smid.  May have to buy out Smid's just to make the cap work, but that is carrying the buyout cost for 3 seasons until 2018/19.    

[420since1974]

According to General Fanager:

http://www.generalfanager.com/teams/calgary-flames

 

Bollig, Engelland, Raymond, Smid, & Wideman's contracts all expire at the end of next season.

Raymond has a NTC and Wideman has a NMC.

 

That will clear just over $16M in Cap Space, assuming that none of them are traded at a prior date.

[travel_dude]

According to General Fanager:

http://www.generalfanager.com/teams/calgary-flames

 

Bollig, Engelland, Raymond, Smid, & Wideman's contracts all expire at the end of next season.

Raymond has a NTC and Wideman has a NMC.

 

That will clear just over $16M in Cap Space, assuming that none of them are traded at a prior date.

 

That is right.  I used the buyout calculator, but that included 2015/16 salary in the calculations.  It would only be a two year buyout, not 3.  

[cross16]

I'm actually really thankful for Wideman's contract if it means we can't afford Russell long term.

All this talk about RHS D, I think Calgary needs to target a LHS stable, possesion driving guy to play with Dougie. The summer of 2017 will be fun for us fans.

 

I agree with this. I know everyone has talked Hamonic but thats not the route I would go personaly unless you can get him for below market which i'm not so sure you will. With how good I think Brodie-Gio and Hamilton are I don't think you need a player like Hamonic you jsut need someone who can help drive posession, play around 20ish mins a night and provide a big of physicality and I think you can get them cheaper than Hamonic.

[travel_dude]

I agree with this. I know everyone has talked Hamonic but thats not the route I would go personaly unless you can get him for below market which i'm not so sure you will. With how good I think Brodie-Gio and Hamilton are I don't think you need a player like Hamonic you jsut need someone who can help drive posession, play around 20ish mins a night and provide a big of physicality and I think you can get them cheaper than Hamonic.

 

If we couldn't get Hamonic as mentioned, I think Schenn would be a reasonable fit.  RHS, so he would need to play with Gio, but then you use Brodie/Hamilton as your top minutes pair.  I think that is the pair we should be using to their potential.  Brodie seems to like the RD side, but he never had a decent partner when playing on LD.  Some night, the only mistakes Brodie makes is making a breakout pass on his backhand.  He is one of the best at doing it, but why limit his options to backhand passes across traffic? 

[cross16]

If we couldn't get Hamonic as mentioned, I think Schenn would be a reasonable fit.  RHS, so he would need to play with Gio, but then you use Brodie/Hamilton as your top minutes pair.  I think that is the pair we should be using to their potential.  Brodie seems to like the RD side, but he never had a decent partner when playing on LD.  Some night, the only mistakes Brodie makes is making a breakout pass on his backhand.  He is one of the best at doing it, but why limit his options to backhand passes across traffic? 

 

I'm not a big Luke Schenn fan so i'm not in favor of that idea personally. I like the idea of Brodie/Hamilton, but I'm not comfortable having Schenn play 23 ish minutes a night so in this scenaior you either have to play Luke Schenn that amount, or limit Gio's minutes and neither option i'm all that comfortable with. 

 

I'm intrigued with what LA could do with their D core this offseason. Rumors have them and Kopitar basically agreed on a deal int he 9 mill range which eats all of their cap room. They want to get Lucic signed which I think will eat into any cap rise next year so i think they need to move some money. Brayden McNabb is a pending UFA and IMO is a very underrated top 4 defensive dman. Flames could target him or maybe even Alex Martinez who is signed to a very reasonable sum for the next 4 years. 

[bigrig91]

Didn't know where to post. But good article on sportsnet . Nhl defense power rankings. TJ Brodie sitting number three in the nhl. Got to say lover seeing him finally getting some recognition from somebody besides flame fans and flames announcers. I heard Barry Sanders say one time that being a running back in the NFL is like writing poetry. Every time I see TJ play he always reminds me of this saying . His skating and edge work is second to nobody.

[Heartbreaker]

Remember that time when there was a big controversy because he was number 66?

Love.

[robrob1974]

It has been awhile since we posted here. Some think our goaltending is the problem others think something else or all encompassing.

Now, on Flames Overtime last night after the game, a caller named Robert was irate about our team structure, particularly the D. The fact that our coaches and players continue to say, we gave them too many goals. Untimely Giveaways kill us, overall team defence kills us.

Apparently we have, as an accumulation on paper, we have one of the best D corps in the league. How can we say that when most nights we let in more goals than we score? Does it have more to do with the team game or with the defence? I think goaltending is a part of it, but not the only thing.

[MAC331]

It has been awhile since we posted here. Some think our goaltending is the problem others think something else or all encompassing.

Now, on Flames Overtime last night after the game, a caller named Robert was irate about our team structure, particularly the D. The fact that our coaches and players continue to say, we gave them too many goals. Untimely Giveaways kill us, overall team defence kills us.

Apparently we have, as an accumulation on paper, we have one of the best D corps in the league. How can we say that when most nights we let in more goals than we score? Does it have more to do with the team game or with the defence? I think goaltending is a part of it, but not the only thing.

I think this all goes back to our lack of puck possession, we always seem to be defending and chasing. If the stretch pass doesn't click the puck is coming back at us a lot. We have some good players but this is not a good team. We need better players and the right combinations playing with each other.

 

Hiller unfortunately is a lost cowboy out there. I laugh when I see him looking up and down or around a screen, well guess what move with some anticipation to the part that isn't covered by bodies. Smid has looked terrible and Nakladal didn't look much better, Hamilton gets beat to the outside to often. Their play is getting discouraging to watch.

[cross16]

It has been awhile since we posted here. Some think our goaltending is the problem others think something else or all encompassing.

Now, on Flames Overtime last night after the game, a caller named Robert was irate about our team structure, particularly the D. The fact that our coaches and players continue to say, we gave them too many goals. Untimely Giveaways kill us, overall team defence kills us.

Apparently we have, as an accumulation on paper, we have one of the best D corps in the league. How can we say that when most nights we let in more goals than we score? Does it have more to do with the team game or with the defence? I think goaltending is a part of it, but not the only thing.

 

 

Goaltending isn't the only thing but its the biggest IMO. I think with better than league average goaltending, Calgary wins the last 2 games. Last night was a great example of what i'm talking about. Botht he Zucker goal and the Pominville goals were not Hiller's fault but they are saves you want and need your goalie to make more often than not. Hiller was in poor position on both of them and couldn't make the save. Do I wish Nakladl didn't make the play at the blueline he did, yes. Do I wish Gaudreau and Frolik weren't so high and out of position on the Pominville goal, yes. Do I wish Englelland woudln't have tried to block that shot, yes. But having said all of that, Hiler should have been in position to make those saves and he wasn't on either.

 

yes th eflames have issues defensivly, mostly with team defence not persee the "Defence", but any good team needs to be bailed out once in a while. This season the Flames just have not gotten the typ eof goaltneindg that bails them out so I think their problems have become magnified becuase every msitake is basicaly in their net. Doesn't help that their PK is garbage as well. 

 

The Flames on paper have a really strong top 3, better than avg top 4 and a below average 3rd pairing. I still contend the Flames D is very good but their 3rd pairing and support form forwrads needs work but if you don't have above average goaltending I don't care if you have 6 Bobby Orrs playing defence, you are going to struggle. 

[Red_Floyd]

I was very hopeful we were going to get a stud d-man in hamilton, and while his play has improved over the year, there is just something that bothers me about his game. Yes he is going to continue to grow and get better, but I just think there is too much wrong with his "character" for lack of a better term, and were going to be rolling our eyes about his decisions for years to come.

 

Personally, and imo opinion if we could get hamonic+ for  hamilton, I would take it. We'd lose some offense, but we'd gain a tough responsible d-man who isn't afraid to be physical, which is an a great asset to have in our conference. I just cant see hammy ever hitting that elite status, but I could be wrong.

[travel_dude]

Goaltending isn't the only thing but its the biggest IMO. I think with better than league average goaltending, Calgary wins the last 2 games. Last night was a great example of what i'm talking about. Botht he Zucker goal and the Pominville goals were not Hiller's fault but they are saves you want and need your goalie to make more often than not. Hiller was in poor position on both of them and couldn't make the save. Do I wish Nakladl didn't make the play at the blueline he did, yes. Do I wish Gaudreau and Frolik weren't so high and out of position on the Pominville goal, yes. Do I wish Englelland woudln't have tried to block that shot, yes. But having said all of that, Hiler should have been in position to make those saves and he wasn't on either.

 

yes th eflames have issues defensivly, mostly with team defence not persee the "Defence", but any good team needs to be bailed out once in a while. This season the Flames just have not gotten the typ eof goaltneindg that bails them out so I think their problems have become magnified becuase every msitake is basicaly in their net. Doesn't help that their PK is garbage as well. 

 

The Flames on paper have a really strong top 3, better than avg top 4 and a below average 3rd pairing. I still contend the Flames D is very good but their 3rd pairing and support form forwrads needs work but if you don't have above average goaltending I don't care if you have 6 Bobby Orrs playing defence, you are going to struggle. 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head.  I watched Nakladal and was impressed with his mature game.  He has a wicked shot.  He angles players quite well.  He mostly can cover a player with the puck without taking a penalty.  Still some work in progress.

 

Hiller is frustrating to watch.  He is so deep in net that he can only block the lower part of the net.  Johnny Hockey could score about 5 goals a game on him.  But you are right that the biggest issue is he isn't making the saves you need.  He will freeze the puck when the top line is out there, killing the play.  And his rebound control is way off.

 

Last night's game was one where he made two or three easy saves look difficult.  

 

We could win games with the top 3 D and the rest filled with Heat players, as long as we had simple plays and a stable goalie. 

[rickross]

The problem was labeling them as one of the best Defensive cores in the league. Flames weren't an elite defensive team last year. Where our D led the league was in SCORING from D men, very different category altogether.