Flames Defense

[swayze67]

We need to improve at D no doubt.  The other thing is both Gio and Wides will be 32 yrs old next season.  So when do you trade so you get something in return so people aren't complaining that the flames missed the best before date like with Iggy.  Also for help what about Chara for short term.  Boston was rumoured to have him on the block at trade deadline.  And possibly Brent Burns out of San Jose.  That's if they try to shake up the team - but that's probably a very long shot.

[MAC331]

I don't think so but I would be interested in young defenseman Tinordi for Wideman if MON was up for it. They may be looking for more offense from their back end. Tinordi would give us a young Rehger type defenseman.

[travel_dude]

MTL are done with Gonchar, Malhotra, and Weaver

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/marc-bergevin-says-sergei-gonchar-manny-malhotra-mike-weaver-wont-return-to-montreal-canadiens/

 

Are any of these guys appealing, even for a year?

 

Manny was always a guy I though could help us.  His FO% is through the roof, always has been.  But he is to a point where his game is mostly ineffective.  It would make sense to have him as a mentor for taking faceoffs, whether he was the 14th forward that only came in for limited duty.  Get him on the ice when we needed a FO win, then get him off.

[cfreining]

I cannot buy into the system of always trading players before the contract ends. Sometimes you get a lot even in the laat season, since it can help your prospects or rookies to develop and that is priceless. If you sell them for other prospects, can you be sure of the off ice development?

[Flyerfan52]

MTL are done with Gonchar, Malhotra, and Weaver

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/marc-bergevin-says-sergei-gonchar-manny-malhotra-mike-weaver-wont-return-to-montreal-canadiens/

 

Are any of these guys appealing, even for a year?

Before his eye injury I would have given up a fair bit to add Malhotra. Now I'm worried that we are the team to let him lose what he's got left of his vision. That said I'd take him cheap & play him limited minutes/select games for 1 year to add even more compete to the room. Maybe after a few games ask if he's ready to transition to coaching with him having full knowledge he starts as an assistant in the ECHL or AHL. I'd offer him that training as a coach 1st but profer the last hurrah contract to seal the deal.

 

Gonchar, Weaver I have 0 interest.

[robrob1974]

I cannot buy into the system of always trading players before the contract ends. Sometimes you get a lot even in the laat season, since it can help your prospects or rookies to develop and that is priceless. If you sell them for other prospects, can you be sure of the off ice development?

 

Good teams don't have to sell their vets at the end of contracts because they've already developed a good roster. They make little moves to improve your team. 

I have a problem with selling your vets at their contract end as well. 

 

I don't think you're showing true commitment to someone you're going to trade just at the end of their contract. If we developed properly, wouldn't everyone have wanted to see Iginla retire a Flame? It's the same with the Sundin thing in Toronto. 

 

Detroit doesn't do that.

[AlbertaBoy12]

Am I the only one who could be excited if we went into next season with the additions of  Nakladal, Morrison. With the other D prospects we have such as Wotherspoon, Kulak, Culkin etc. If we were to sign a player like cody franson or make a trade for a luke schenn our D depth going into camp would look really good! 

[FlamesLogic]

I think Gio has been playing like a top 10 dman the last two years and if he shows the same next year by all means pay him like a top 10 guy. Just dont do it for 7 more years when he is 38 and his game has slowed down and everyone starts to regard his contract as an anchor.

 

Average cap hit for a top 10 dman = 6.9785

Player Cap Number Final Year Term Age weber 7.857 2027 14 41 suter 7.538 2026 13 40 letang 7.25 2023 8 35 campbell 7.14 2017 8 37 doughty 7 2020 8 30 dion 7 2022 7 36 chara 6.917 2019 7 41 pieterangelo 6.5 2021 7 30 karlsson 6.5 2020 7 29 green 6.083 2016 3 30 AVG 6.9785 2021.1 8.2 34.9

 

Dion, Campbell, Letang are 3 contracts Im sure those teams would like to have back. Im sure even Boston would like to shed Chara and his contract right now.

Weber and Suter at least have the benefit of time so that in 8 years when they are slowing down their respective cap hit compared to the overall cap should be smaller in comparison to what their body can produce.

 

Gio at 4 yrs for 6 mil would be team friendly

Gio at 4 years for 7 mil would be pretty fair

Gio at 4 years for 8 mil would be player friendly

 

Thats the starting points imo. Cap likely wont change much next couple years due to CDN dollar adjusting for any rise in overall revenue.

 

If he wants more term or overall dollars then we can add retirement years to lower cap hit for the term of the contract.

 

What we shouldnt do is pay him as a top 10 dman for the next 7 years because he wont be a top 10 dman for the next 7 years.

 

In 4 years if he is still producing like that by all means give him another good contract but dont give term AND dollars and bet on Gio being that generational player like Lidstrom/Bourque that produces well into his late 30's.

Sweet, I was close on this one.

 

ABC923 was dead on though:

http://fans.flames.nhl.com/community/topic/21682-mark-giordano-wants-9mil/?p=677213

 

I too think Gio will take a somewhat friendly deal that pays him well, while taking into account where he is at in his career.  When he is signed, I think it is important Gio be the highest paid player on the team at that time.  Hamilton is currently tops on the blueline at 5.75 AAV, so he should be higher than that.  I'm thinking a 6 year deal, AAV around 6.75 with a bit of backdiving (8, 7.5, 7, 6.5, 6, 5.5).  That will bring Gio to 39 years of age, at which point he will likely retire.  We don't want to go much farther, since an early retirement will still subject us to some cap recapture (i think?).

 

[The_People1]

With Giordano signed, the Flames are going to have one of the best top 3's in the league for the next 4 to 6 years.  Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton are going to be really tough to play against.  It's going to come down to replacing Wideman, Russell, etc in the support roles.

[420since1974]

The Flames really need one of their prospects to progress up to a 2nd pairing D position within 2 - 3 years.

 

There shouldn't be any problem at all replacing the current 5th - 7th D from within the system.

[rocketdoctor]

I don't understand the non love for Russell on these boards

 

This guy is on a great contract. Has proven time and again through Junior and Senior that you don't need to be 6'4 to play D. 

 

He is so under rated on the Flame boards.    I would have in our top 4 for a long time.   Ship out Wideman, Smid Engeland first.   I think it would be a big mistake getting shot of Russell.

[travel_dude]

I don't understand the non love for Russell on these boards

 

This guy is on a great contract. Has proven time and again through Junior and Senior that you don't need to be 6'4 to play D. 

 

He is so under rated on the Flame boards.    I would have in our top 4 for a long time.   Ship out Wideman, Smid Engeland first.   I think it would be a big mistake getting shot of Russell.

 

Not so much no love as he is on an expiring contract.  He will likely be looking for $4m+ on his next one.  For a LHS, smaller d-man, that is a lot.  His true weakness is being able to handle bigger teams like LA and ANA.  

[CheersMan]

I believe we have an extremely good defense with our existing top 7.  Not including the young ones knocking on the door.  Assuming playoffs, this is the type of depth you want entering the playoffs.  I see Russell signing an extension before TDL and then subtractions made on this grossly over spent position in the off season.

 

Gio
Hamilton
Brodie
Wideman
Russell
Smid
Engelland

[cccsberg]

I believe we have an extremely good defense with our existing top 7.  Not including the young ones knocking on the door.  Assuming playoffs, this is the type of depth you want entering the playoffs.  I see Russell signing an extension before TDL and then subtractions made on this grossly over spent position in the off season.

 

Gio

Hamilton

Brodie

Wideman

Russell

Smid

Engelland

 

 

Am I the only one who could be excited if we went into next season with the additions of  Nakladal, Morrison. With the other D prospects we have such as Wotherspoon, Kulak, Culkin etc. 

Personally I would love to see  Giordano and Brodie stay together as well as Wideman and Russell, leaving Hamilton anchoring the 2nd pair with one of the youngsters making the jump to play with him.  I believe Nakladal is likely the closest to ready, though I'd love to see Morrison who is also mature and may be ready too.  Of course Wotherspoon has previously been touted as the next one in line but he needs to really step it up with big effort or he's going to get left behind quickly.  This TC isn't do or die for him, but its getting close.  

 

That would leave Engelland and Smid as extras with one getting traded or sent down where they could mentor the kids there, unless some team plucks them off waivers which wouldn't be a terrible thing assuming one of the prospects makes the jump.  

 

Come TDL the Flames will have to make decisions on Wideman and Russell and if the kids are ready they can be moved.  If not, kept on for another year or two till they are.  In two years time or less,  I'm expecting a huge battle between all the prospects for the potentially 4 available D spots and with Kylington and Andersson entering the mix by then, and Kulak, Culkin, Kanzig et al fully steeped with AHL training, it'll get very, very interesting to see who breaks through and perseveres.

[cccsberg]

Personally I would love to see  Giordano and Brodie stay together as well as Wideman and Russell, leaving Hamilton anchoring the 2nd pair with one of the youngsters making the jump to play with him.  I believe Nakladal is likely the closest to ready, though I'd love to see Morrison who is also mature and may be ready too.  Of course Wotherspoon has previously been touted as the next one in line but he needs to really step it up with big effort or he's going to get left behind quickly.  This TC isn't do or die for him, but its getting close.  

 

That would leave Engelland and Smid as extras with one getting traded or sent down where they could mentor the kids there, unless some team plucks them off waivers which wouldn't be a terrible thing assuming one of the prospects makes the jump.  

 

Come TDL the Flames will have to make decisions on Wideman and Russell and if the kids are ready they can be moved.  If not, kept on for another year or two till they are.  In two years time or less,  I'm expecting a huge battle between all the prospects for the potentially 4 available D spots and with Kylington and Andersson entering the mix by then, and Kulak, Culkin, Kanzig et al fully steeped with AHL training, it'll get very, very interesting to see who breaks through and perseveres.

On a different thread someone was projecting the Flames 2017-18 defence as:

 

Giordano-Brodie-Hamilton-Morrison-Andersson-Hickey, with Kylington others noted as the spare.

 

That's assuming 4 new guys make it, but also that Wideman, Russell, Smid, Engelland are gone and none of these guys make it: Wotherspoon, Culkin, Kulak, Nakladal, Kanzig, Bruce, Roy... 

 

That's a big WOW!  What a difference a year makes.  There is tremendous competition and hopefully a few of these guys will really break through and force their way onto the team, or force BT to move some very good/promising D-men.  

[zima]

What a difference a few months make from a top d core as predicted from so called analysed to a bottom dwelling team because of poor defence and goal tending  watching Hamilton right now is like watching a rookie that on most teams would have been sent down by now. The sad thing is Hartley isn't willing to bring up some help we have a KHL top d man sitting down in the AHL I know Hamilton isn't the only problem right now but he isn't the player we traded three top prospects for hopefully he can pull out and make a difference but not happening to this point and we need help desperately lets see what some other players in the A can do what do we have to lose another Game LOL   . lets try something different the shots on goal are there the protection of the back end isn't.

[kehatch]

I think Wideman was really good this season. I am not sold that he will keep that up though. I think you can move him, even with his contract. I would do that.

 

This wasn't a popular sentiment.  But it is one I stood by all off season.  Wideman was a buyout candidate two seasons ago and all the signs pointed to him falling off this season.  I was really hoping we would have cashed in on his good season to get out of that contract and maybe get a return. 

 

That said, there are rumors Treliving tried to move him this off season but couldn't find a taker for that contract.  If true, well at least we tried.  Either way, it looks like we are stuck with his contract for a couple more seasons.  

[travel_dude]

This wasn't a popular sentiment.  But it is one I stood by all off season.  Wideman was a buyout candidate two seasons ago and all the signs pointed to him falling off this season.  I was really hoping we would have cashed in on his good season to get out of that contract and maybe get a return. 

 

That said, there are rumors Treliving tried to move him this off season but couldn't find a taker for that contract.  If true, well at least we tried.  Either way, it looks like we are stuck with his contract for a couple more seasons.  

 

His value right now is NIL.  If he is able to start putting up points (he's actually our leading point producer on D right now) consistently, his value will be a lot higher at TDL.  Away from Russell, he hasn't been quite as bad, but he needs someone like Nakladal to cover his lapses.  

[cross16]

This wasn't a popular sentiment.  But it is one I stood by all off season.  Wideman was a buyout candidate two seasons ago and all the signs pointed to him falling off this season.  I was really hoping we would have cashed in on his good season to get out of that contract and maybe get a return. 

 

That said, there are rumors Treliving tried to move him this off season but couldn't find a taker for that contract.  If true, well at least we tried.  Either way, it looks like we are stuck with his contract for a couple more seasons.  

 

I just don't think the value was there. I think the problem with moving Wideman is the term versus the age and the only way they were going to move him was to make some money back in return. Once they got Hamilton i was content moving Wideman for a 2nd rounder if they could get it but I just don't think they could.

 

To defend Wideman a bit I don't think he is playing awful this season. He looked pretty solid playing with Gio but with Russell - Englelland etc he's look pretty bad but part of that is Wideman is not a guy who will push a pairing. He needs a certain level of chemistry to hide mistakes. I've been suggesting this for a while but not really sure why Hartley hasn't rolled out:

 

Gio - Wideman

Brodie - Hamilton

Russell - Englelland.

 

Russell- Englelland might scare some peole but IMO I would be playing that top 4 around 48-50 mins a night so you don't really need Russell-Englelland that much. Russell hasn't played horrible as of yet, but I am a bit perplexed why Hartley seems to commited to getting Russell going. IMO, you need to get Wideman and Hamilton going not Russell.

[robrob1974]

As great as Brodie has been at solidifying the D, I think they need to better the team by splitting up him and Giordano. As good a pair they've been, I think splitting them stabilizes the rest.

Cross' pairings seem about right.

[travel_dude]

As great as Brodie has been at solidifying the D, I think they need to better the team by splitting up him and Giordano. As good a pair they've been, I think splitting them stabilizes the rest.

Cross' pairings seem about right.

 

I think that is a lineup that a lot of us have been waiting for.  Convince BH that Russell is a 5/6 guy, though.

[zima]

So no one thinks we should bring up some one like Nakladal ok maybe not his points in the A isn't anything to write home about but perhaps he can stop a few advances from the bad guys. seems like management are going to stick with what we have in the back end including goal perhaps no one wants what we have or they think they can weather the storm or maybe just maybe were going for first over all. The sad thing is before last yr I was all for it now they teased us gave us a possibility of greatness just to pull the rug out from under us perhaps it's time to look forward to the first over all unless Edmonchuck pays some one off again and gets first overall again. Im all for first as long as Bennett kills it in the scoring race LOL I know doesn't mean every thing but would like to see him show we made the right pick. 

[travel_dude]

So no one thinks we should bring up some one like Nakladal ok maybe not his points in the A isn't anything to write home about but perhaps he can stop a few advances from the bad guys. seems like management are going to stick with what we have in the back end including goal perhaps no one wants what we have or they think they can weather the storm or maybe just maybe were going for first over all. The sad thing is before last yr I was all for it now they teased us gave us a possibility of greatness just to pull the rug out from under us perhaps it's time to look forward to the first over all unless Edmonchuck pays some one off again and gets first overall again. Im all for first as long as Bennett kills it in the scoring race LOL I know doesn't mean every thing but would like to see him show we made the right pick. 

 

If there was a free spot in the roster, then he could be called up.  We have 23 which is the limit.  Would need to waive a player to do it.  Likely Raymond or Smid or Bollig.  But we have 7D already.  Nakladal isn't likely to get time unless we trade Russell or Wideman.

A short-term injury likely means Smid goes back in.

[JTech780]

I just don't think the value was there. I think the problem with moving Wideman is the term versus the age and the only way they were going to move him was to make some money back in return. Once they got Hamilton i was content moving Wideman for a 2nd rounder if they could get it but I just don't think they could.

To defend Wideman a bit I don't think he is playing awful this season. He looked pretty solid playing with Gio but with Russell - Englelland etc he's look pretty bad but part of that is Wideman is not a guy who will push a pairing. He needs a certain level of chemistry to hide mistakes. I've been suggesting this for a while but not really sure why Hartley hasn't rolled out:

Gio - Wideman

Brodie - Hamilton

Russell - Englelland.

Russell- Englelland might scare some peole but IMO I would be playing that top 4 around 48-50 mins a night so you don't really need Russell-Englelland that much. Russell hasn't played horrible as of yet, but I am a bit perplexed why Hartley seems to commited to getting Russell going. IMO, you need to get Wideman and Hamilton going not Russell.

I wouldn't want Wideman anywhere near my top 4. I was happy when he was playing on the 3rd pairing and playing 17 or less minutes a night. Wideman should be in a pairing that doesn't get any defensive zone starts. He is a nightmare in the defensive zone. Give him O-Zone starts and OK time, but lock him to the bench outside of that.

Ideally we could get a LHS physical defense man who can play alongside in the top 4.

Giordano/Brodie

?/Hamilton

Russell/Wideman

[AlbertaBoy12]

I wouldn't want Wideman anywhere near my top 4. I was happy when he was playing on the 3rd pairing and playing 17 or less minutes a night. Wideman should be in a pairing that doesn't get any defensive zone starts. He is a nightmare in the defensive zone. Give him O-Zone starts and OK time, but lock him to the bench outside of that.

Ideally we could get a LHS physical defense man who can play alongside in the top 4.

Giordano/Brodie

?/Hamilton

Russell/Wideman

The problem really is that neither wideman or russell is a top 4 D man, but BH plays them like they are, like I said earlier Russell was top on the team in minutes till the end of the 2nd. This article sums up my feelings on the way BH is playing our D corp.

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/11/13/lightning-3-flames-1-post-game-embers-square-peg-round-hole

 

I have no clue why Hamilton is not getting pp time or pk time, I know he has not in the last couple games. Its almost as weird as ortio not getting a start on a back to back night.

 

First pp of the game in washington and russell/wideman are out together. ffs.