The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[The_Tribal Chief]

Oh fine Here this Bidding process how ever much there throwing out in that the renovations and what ever other money there tossing out the window the plebiscite is a waste of money No body wants the olympics they know there gonna have to pay it all back in taxes

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, The_Snowbear said:

Oh fine Here this Bidding process how ever much there throwing out in that the renovations and what ever other money there tossing out the window the plebiscite is a waste of money No body wants the olympics they know there gonna have to pay it all back in taxes

Nobody ? I think you are incorrect as many want to see it happen. Right now we know Calgary's commitment is 379M leading into the Opening over 7 years. The City just put 270M into a new Library so I think as a City we CAN afford it. Like all vote related issues there we be the NO and YES sides, that just the way it works.

[cross16]

The fact that the city continues to be so secretive about this bid, the budget and the cost overruns is making it very difficult for me to vote yes. Nenshi, Councillors and people on the Yes side say we are getting an "extraordinary" deal, but if it's so extraordinary why all the secrecy?

 

So far the only comment on cost overruns is they've taken out an insurance policy of up to 200 million (good luck with that) and they will pay the insurance premiums on it. Other than that there is next to nothing being said about them which is extremely troubling considering it's cost overruns that usually wind up killing a cities budget. 

[MAC331]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

The fact that the city continues to be so secretive about this bid, the budget and the cost overruns is making it very difficult for me to vote yes. Nenshi, Councillors and people on the Yes side say we are getting an "extraordinary" deal, but if it's so extraordinary why all the secrecy?

 

So far the only comment on cost overruns is they've taken out an insurance policy of up to 200 million (good luck with that) and they will pay the insurance premiums on it. Other than that there is next to nothing being said about them which is extremely troubling considering it's cost overruns that usually wind up killing a cities budget. 

How can you comment on cost over runs when nothing has even been developed yet ?

[travel_dude]

16 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

How can you comment on cost over runs when nothing has even been developed yet ?

 

Have you ever heard of a major infrastructure project that doesn't have cost overruns?

Inflation, material costs, labor shortages, increased security....

[MAC331]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Have you ever heard of a major infrastructure project that doesn't have cost overruns?

Inflation, material costs, labor shortages, increased security....

I have been involved with developments I will guess a lot more than you so to answer your question, yes I have. I also understand the concern surrounding cost over runs but asking for information on things that haven't occurred yet is impossible. The position you take is like " I better not leave the house I might get hit by a car". Naysayers will use all the excuses and yasayers will paint the other side. Go with the type you consider yourself to be is all one can do at this stage. I would love to see the winter Olympics held here again.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

How can you comment on cost over runs when nothing has even been developed yet ?

 

Because all Olympics in recent memory have gone over budget to the tune of 150% if I'm not mistaken. Not talking about cost over runs when the risk is that high Is incredibly foolish imo. 

[MAC331]

33 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Because all Olympics in recent memory have gone over budget to the tune of 150% if I'm not mistaken. Not talking about cost over runs when the risk is that high Is incredibly foolish imo. 

Some of those places did not have the facilities available to us now either. To position your NO vote based on what there could be as unknown cost over runs doesn't even allow you to find out. First win the bid, then start the estimates of what has to done. Anyways do what you want, the vote is coming up. I'm not here to convince you.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I have been involved with developments I will guess a lot more than you so to answer your question, yes I have. I also understand the concern surrounding cost over runs but asking for information on things that haven't occurred yet is impossible. The position you take is like " I better not leave the house I might get hit by a car". Naysayers will use all the excuses and yasayers will paint the other side. Go with the type you consider yourself to be is all one can do at this stage. I would love to see the winter Olympics held here again.

 

Actually, the position I take is in reference to other major infrastructure project of recent times.  Rogers Place.  LRT line in EDM.  Olympics in Vancouver.  Olympics in Montreal (many of it racketeering).  Rio Olympic Cost Overruns Reach $1.6 Billion.  

 

"In the past 25 years, costs and cost overruns have soared. Olympics in Barcelona 1992 ($9.7 billion cost, 266% cost overrun) and Athens 2004 ($3 billion, 49%) contributed to soaring debt in both Spain and Greece, which fueled the subsequent European sovereign debt crisis. Moreover, the high costs of London 2012 ($15 billion, 76%) and Sochi ($22 billion, 289%) added to heavy indebtedness in the UK and economic erosion in Russia."

 

That's less staying in the house because I may get hit by a car and more staying in the house when I see a crane carrying a unstable load over my front door.

 

I would love to have the chance to see the Olympics.  It's not reasonable to plan for it without understanding what the costs may be.  

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Actually, the position I take is in reference to other major infrastructure project of recent times.  Rogers Place.  LRT line in EDM.  Olympics in Vancouver.  Olympics in Montreal (many of it racketeering).  Rio Olympic Cost Overruns Reach $1.6 Billion.  

 

"In the past 25 years, costs and cost overruns have soared. Olympics in Barcelona 1992 ($9.7 billion cost, 266% cost overrun) and Athens 2004 ($3 billion, 49%) contributed to soaring debt in both Spain and Greece, which fueled the subsequent European sovereign debt crisis. Moreover, the high costs of London 2012 ($15 billion, 76%) and Sochi ($22 billion, 289%) added to heavy indebtedness in the UK and economic erosion in Russia."

 

That's less staying in the house because I may get hit by a car and more staying in the house when I see a crane carrying a unstable load over my front door.

 

I would love to have the chance to see the Olympics.  It's not reasonable to plan for it without understanding what the costs may be.  

You are not going to know the costs, its impossible right now. Vote YES to even go to the bid. Bail later if the estimates and contracts get out of hand would be my recommendation.

[cross16]

15 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Some of those places did not have the facilities available to us now either. To position your NO vote based on what there could be as unknown cost over runs doesn't even allow you to find out. First win the bid, then start the estimates of what has to done. Anyways do what you want, the vote is coming up. I'm not here to convince you.

 

Appears you have a lot more faith in elected officials than I do. Not just Olympics, what public works project does not have cost overruns? I have no faith that the people involved here can deliver this on budget. No games do, no recent Calgary projects have and I still found it incredible fishy that in order to make the budget work for the feds they managed to cut 300 million out of it. It just all seems very back door to me. 

 

Problem with submitting a bid and seeing what happens, is the bid is binding. You can't win the bid and decide later it's getting to be too expensive and drop out so I think it's really important we understand these questions now. 

 

[robrob74]

36 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Actually, the position I take is in reference to other major infrastructure project of recent times.  Rogers Place.  LRT line in EDM.  Olympics in Vancouver.  Olympics in Montreal (many of it racketeering).  Rio Olympic Cost Overruns Reach $1.6 Billion.  

 

"In the past 25 years, costs and cost overruns have soared. Olympics in Barcelona 1992 ($9.7 billion cost, 266% cost overrun) and Athens 2004 ($3 billion, 49%) contributed to soaring debt in both Spain and Greece, which fueled the subsequent European sovereign debt crisis. Moreover, the high costs of London 2012 ($15 billion, 76%) and Sochi ($22 billion, 289%) added to heavy indebtedness in the UK and economic erosion in Russia."

 

That's less staying in the house because I may get hit by a car and more staying in the house when I see a crane carrying a unstable load over my front door.

 

I would love to have the chance to see the Olympics.  It's not reasonable to plan for it without understanding what the costs may be.  

 

There was a guy on the Fan talking about the Vancouver Olympics. He said they were on budget. All of the things put into the Olympic bid went on budget and he said it was his reputation on the line. He said they cut costs when they had to. 

 

Pinder askef him about the highways and other infrastructure and the response was, those cane after the bid and are not part of the Olympic costs. Roads and highways and the Canada line are a separate entity. The government chose to do those on their own. 

[MAC331]

37 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Appears you have a lot more faith in elected officials than I do. Not just Olympics, what public works project does not have cost overruns? I have no faith that the people involved here can deliver this on budget. No games do, no recent Calgary projects have and I still found it incredible fishy that in order to make the budget work for the feds they managed to cut 300 million out of it. It just all seems very back door to me. 

 

Problem with submitting a bid and seeing what happens, is the bid is binding. You can't win the bid and decide later it's getting to be too expensive and drop out so I think it's really important we understand these questions now. 

 

We don't even know who the working committees will be comprised of yet however it won't be politicians running the show. Like I said you have convinced yourself of the NO side and I'm not here to debate or convince you otherwise.

[Horsman1]

20 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

We don't even know who the working committees will be comprised of yet however it won't be politicians running the show. Like I said you have convinced yourself of the NO side and I'm not here to debate or convince you otherwise.

I was initially so happy to once again have the Olympics as the 88 games were such a tremendous time here in Calgary.. it was almost spirituous how the entire city came together and the joy it brought for so many.. I'm afraid that at the current stated price of 5.3 Billion.. there is no way in hell i'll be able to support this bid.. We Calgarians Pay Federal/provincial and civic taxes.. Which are the three levels of government promising money for these games.. as well.. We also will be the only ones buying tickets to the events!! Where , in this sad economic times of this city and province are we to come up with this kind of luxury money?? The Ski jump that sits idle at C.O.P. won't even be used as this event will be held at Whistler.. Many other events will also be held outside the city.. Last olympics.. there were thousands upon thousands of corporate volunteers that really had an economic impact on keeping the costs under control.. These companies either have moved out of calgary or no longer exist... How can we manage a 5.3 billion dollar Olympics with all facilities already built and just in need of a face lift when the last games only cost 800 million which included the building from the ground up of all the facilities?? I won't vote no.. But I just can't vote yes.. I'll live with whatever results the plebiscite determines

[conundrumed]

Olympics = hide your homeless.

Hide your economic disparity, hide your underclasses, Hide your big socio-economic problems.

It's the Olympics after all.

Only the privileged will profit.

But yeah, go for it. *sarcasm*

[travel_dude]

4 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

There was a guy on the Fan talking about the Vancouver Olympics. He said they were on budget. All of the things put into the Olympic bid went on budget and he said it was his reputation on the line. He said they cut costs when they had to. 

 

Pinder askef him about the highways and other infrastructure and the response was, those cane after the bid and are not part of the Olympic costs. Roads and highways and the Canada line are a separate entity. The government chose to do those on their own. 

 

Oh, fo sure.  Call it something else and you don;t have to worry.

So, I guess the massive project of the Sea-to-sky had nothing to do with the Olympics.

Not arguing with ya man, just don;t believe when budgets are balanced.  There are many ways to "hide" stuff.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Oh, fo sure.  Call it something else and you don;t have to worry.

So, I guess the massive project of the Sea-to-sky had nothing to do with the Olympics.

Not arguing with ya man, just don;t believe when budgets are balanced.  There are many ways to "hide" stuff.

 

It was much needed. The prices of homes in Vancouver pushed people out to Squamish and it is a heavily travelled highway. They’d probably live out there anyway, but the danger is lessened by the improvements. 

 

Post games, the olympics brought in a lot of tourism. So the highway is paying for itself in the long run.

[DirtyDeeds]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Appears you have a lot more faith in elected officials than I do. Not just Olympics, what public works project does not have cost overruns? I have no faith that the people involved here can deliver this on budget. No games do, no recent Calgary projects have and I still found it incredible fishy that in order to make the budget work for the feds they managed to cut 300 million out of it. It just all seems very back door to me. 

 

Problem with submitting a bid and seeing what happens, is the bid is binding. You can't win the bid and decide later it's getting to be too expensive and drop out so I think it's really important we understand these questions now. 

 

[Cowtownguy]

19 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I wonder what happens when a project goes over its projected budget. I find it difficult to believe that the large corporation actually absorbs the costs. A friend of mine who works in Toronto for a large company had a 20 storey building put up a few years ago. The company screwed up all of the bathrooms. Basically, the builder somehow sloped all of the area surrounding the tubs into the walls causing serious damage. When I asked why the builder wasn't going to warranty the work, the individual said that there are only so many builders capable of constructing such buildings. They basically told them "too bad. What are you going to do, go to our non-existent competitor?"

[The_People1]

https://calgaryherald.com/sports/olympics/city-unveils-electronic-tabulator-machines-to-be-used-in-plebiscite

 

I'm too tin foiled hat so when I hear the city of Calgary just installed electronic machines this close to the plebiscite, I feel they've got this thing rigged...

[robrob74]

19 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

https://calgaryherald.com/sports/olympics/city-unveils-electronic-tabulator-machines-to-be-used-in-plebiscite

 

I'm too tin foiled hat so when I hear the city of Calgary just installed electronic machines this close to the plebiscite, I feel they've got this thing rigged...

 

What is more expensive? The machine or the not machine?

[ABC923]

So the city really wants to use McMahon for the opening and closing ceremonies again?  Are they trying to embarrass us?  I don't care how much lipstick you put on that pig, it's still an old pig.  

McMahon is like your room in your parents house.  Sure, it's good enough for you.  Comfortable, familiar, has most things you need.  But do you really want to invite your friends or lovers over to hang out at your parents house when your over 30 years old?

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

4 hours ago, ABC923 said:

So the city really wants to use McMahon for the opening and closing ceremonies again?  Are they trying to embarrass us?  I don't care how much lipstick you put on that pig, it's still an old pig.  

McMahon is like your room in your parents house.  Sure, it's good enough for you.  Comfortable, familiar, has most things you need.  But do you really want to invite your friends or lovers over to hang out at your parents house when your over 30 years old?

You leave my personal life out of this.

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

You leave my personal life out of this.

 

Do you put lipstick on pigs?  

[robrob74]

6 hours ago, ABC923 said:

So the city really wants to use McMahon for the opening and closing ceremonies again?  Are they trying to embarrass us?  I don't care how much lipstick you put on that pig, it's still an old pig.  

McMahon is like your room in your parents house.  Sure, it's good enough for you.  Comfortable, familiar, has most things you need.  But do you really want to invite your friends or lovers over to hang out at your parents house when your over 30 years old?

 

Is it a building that can be facelifted with renos? Maybe they’d prefer to throw a few hundred million into it instead of build a whole new one? I dunno.