The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[DirtyDeeds]

19 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I understand all of what you are saying here but it has to and will start somewhere and removing the NDP is essential.

Province has little to do with a civic arena being built. They don't contribute very much and have already said they wont here.

 

Edmonton funding came from other areas .

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/how-the-edmonton-arena-deal-was-done

[MAC331]

36 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Province has little to do with a civic arena being built. They don't contribute very much and have already said they wont here.

 

Edmonton funding came from other areas .

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/how-the-edmonton-arena-deal-was-done

They have a lot to do with the exodus of capital from Alberta or the return of capital until they are out.

I think there can be a deal done eventually similar to the Edmonton one but not the CalgaryNEXT project (which did have required Provincial involvement)

BTW if the Flames are considering a sale and move of the Flames they are not the only business considering to leave Alberta.

[Flyerfan52]

2 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Province has little to do with a civic arena being built. They don't contribute very much and have already said they wont here.

 

Edmonton funding came from other areas .

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/how-the-edmonton-arena-deal-was-done

Didn't those costs rise from 485 to 604. 5 with Katz only adding 15?

Easy to hide #s for all levels of government. We'll get it back via taxes on the area or a surtax on tickets. What was the cost of infrastucture to get people there?

 

[CheersMan]

On ‎2017‎-‎12‎-‎22 at 0:18 PM, MAC331 said:

There is still a lot of capital projects going on in Calgary and I highly doubt prices have come down any. Our Province and Municipalities are having to deal with the realities of lesser revenues from the Oil industry so arenas are rightfully so not a high priority right now. We also should know that most if not all the Flames owners made their wealth and maintain a lot of their investments within the Oil industry. We may have to wait until the NDP are out and capital investment returns to the Oil industry before this gets back on track.

In the mean time Bettman needs to keep his mouth shut.

Agreed

[MAC331]

9 hours ago, CheersMan said:

Agreed

I have to admit not being in many other NHL arenas, especially the new ones but what is so wrong with the Saddledome and sold out games ?

[Pyromancer]

27 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I have to admit not being in many other NHL arenas, especially the new ones but what is so wrong with the Saddledome and sold out games ?

Absolutely nothing wrong with the Saddledome.

The factions that feel we absolutely need one suffer from arena-envy.

Sure, there are some new beautiful arenas out there but the Saddledome is far from being an ugly duckling.

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I have to admit not being in many other NHL arenas, especially the new ones but what is so wrong with the Saddledome and sold out games ?

Sold out games does not mean you are making money. It just means there is a base of population that wants hockey.

 

I read somewhere that the Flames are not making money. Not enough Corporate boxes etc in this arena. When they did the refit from the floods they did not have time to redo the insides just fix it in time for the season. The same article said they were now among revenue sharing that was receiving rather than contributing to.

 

It might have been smoke and mirrors because of the attempts to get an arena but I could not say for sure.

 

Edit: https://globalnews.ca/news/3766552/ken-king-set-to-address-the-future-of-the-calgary-flames-at-monday-luncheon/

 

The president of the Calgary Flames says the team is not swimming in money.

Ken King told Calgary’s chamber of commerce Monday that the team has gone from a giver to a taker in NHL revenue sharing.

READ MORE: Calgary Flames release details of their new arena funding plan

“We’ve gone from a top-10 revenue contributing team, where we wrote the cheques in the last few years to help the other teams, and we have now crossed the line,” King said. “We’re now receivers. We’ll get a cheque this year.

“Isn’t that ridiculous in this beautiful market? It shows where this is heading and it’s in the wrong direction.

[CheersMan]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I have to admit not being in many other NHL arenas, especially the new ones but what is so wrong with the Saddledome and sold out games ?

The Saddledome is totally serviceable and still provides all the needs required for a hockey game.  I was not and I’m still not a supporter of a new standalone arena.  However, when I seen the masterplan for CalgaryNext I changed my mind.  CalgaryNext would have brought us to the forefront for ALL of our sporting and entertainment needs, under one roof, as well as remediate the waste land in the heart of a thriving city.  I believe CalgaryNext would have provided the best bang for the buck.

[Heartbreaker]

2 hours ago, CheersMan said:

The Saddledome is totally serviceable and still provides all the needs required for a hockey game.  I was not and I’m still not a supporter of a new standalone arena.  However, when I seen the masterplan for CalgaryNext I changed my mind.  CalgaryNext would have brought us to the forefront for ALL of our sporting and entertainment needs, under one roof, as well as remediate the waste land in the heart of a thriving city.  I believe CalgaryNext would have provided the best bang for the buck.

Yeah, but, who is going to pay for it? Who should pay for it? 

 

Love. 

[MAC331]

3 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Sold out games does not mean you are making money. It just means there is a base of population that wants hockey.

 

I read somewhere that the Flames are not making money. Not enough Corporate boxes etc in this arena. When they did the refit from the floods they did not have time to redo the insides just fix it in time for the season. The same article said they were now among revenue sharing that was receiving rather than contributing to.

 

It might have been smoke and mirrors because of the attempts to get an arena but I could not say for sure.

 

Edit: https://globalnews.ca/news/3766552/ken-king-set-to-address-the-future-of-the-calgary-flames-at-monday-luncheon/

 

The president of the Calgary Flames says the team is not swimming in money.

Ken King told Calgary’s chamber of commerce Monday that the team has gone from a giver to a taker in NHL revenue sharing.

READ MORE: Calgary Flames release details of their new arena funding plan

“We’ve gone from a top-10 revenue contributing team, where we wrote the cheques in the last few years to help the other teams, and we have now crossed the line,” King said. “We’re now receivers. We’ll get a cheque this year.

“Isn’t that ridiculous in this beautiful market? It shows where this is heading and it’s in the wrong direction.

I don't know the surrounding details on how we go from giver to receiver in one year, sounds convenient. Maybe it is time the NHL gave us a cheque for supporting their League.

It is all a war of words right now.

[CheersMan]

1 hour ago, Heartbreaker said:

Yeah, but, who is going to pay for it? Who should pay for it? 

 

Love. 

That’s the $1.8B dollar question.  The pie chart the Flames produced was split in almost 4 equal ways, which is a starting point.  Property tax and profit sharing appears to be the stumbling block.  The CSEC wants to avoid the property tax by having the city own the building.  I believe the CSEC also wants to manage the building and keep all the profits.  CSEC can’t have both but surely there has to be a deal somewhere in the middle.  I’d also be looking for Provincial and Federal money for the cleanup.  The contamination was a result of treating railway ties that were used to build a railway connecting everything between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the building of a country.  I like the concept of the project, but I don’t pretend to have the financial answers.        

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CalgaryNEXT

 

[Cowtownguy]

17 minutes ago, Heartbreaker said:

Yeah, but, who is going to pay for it? Who should pay for it? 

 

Love. 

Although this billion dollar question is never directly confronted, I get the sense that the answer from the Flames is that 1)  Edmonton got one, and 2) another city might pay for their desired arena. We want more money.

 

Those are not very good answers especially during a recession. In Canada, only the city of Edmonton paid for their arena, and they were fleeced. Meanwhile, their owner bought the most expensive home in LA. Edmonton will not be revitalized because of a new arena. A quick visit to every major city in Canada will prove that. They have serious problems, and I am not being a homer when I say that. The auto wrecking plants on Calgary Trail are a beautiful touch btw. Sexy.

 

The Flames can talk about free market principles etc., but that is not a good logical direction to take. Tell Balsillie that the NHL operates in a monopoly free market. The reality is that there are more teams than viable NHL cities. If they move to the US, they will need a decade to build a base IF they can copy the Nashville model (Nashville and Vegas know how to do entertainment), and they will have to compete with three other sports that are historically far more successful. Take a major US city, cut the potential market share by 1/4th at best, and remember that ice hockey in places where ice doesn't exist tends to do poorly. The Phoenix Arizona Coyotes is a never-ending saga still, I cannot see the Florida Panthers existing there for long, and the Islanders have won several cups and struggle to get fans out. The Islanders played in a basketball arena for a few years. Buffalo has long been on thin ice (pun intended), and Detroit would not have a team if their Canadian fan base didn't cross the border to watch games every night. I lived in the 'peg when the Jets left. The media blackouts announced on game days after they figured out how many people bought tickets were fun. How is Carolina doing these days? Oh yeah, and there was something about Ottawa being unhappy. Don't talk to me about greener pastures and economics. The Flames have it good in Calgary. The fan base is so strong that local media actually conducted an interview with the guy who was not wearing red during the playoffs. THE guy. How many professional sports teams can boast such dedication? The existing arena deal is so sweet that the Flames find investing into a new one to be unattractive. 

 

The Flames need to start all over again. King has been an epic failure in this negotiation. Maybe ownership is making his life difficult. Fall off of your wallet, hire a real PR firm, and talk about a made in Calgary solution that will meet everyone's needs (as much as is possible). As I have said several times, other cities have hotel or airport taxes to fund new infrastructure. Get outsiders to pay a portion of the new arena. 

Passively-aggressively threatening to sell or move, having one of the most disliked ice hockey columnists (Eric Francis) demanding a new arena, crying while walking away from the negotiating table and refusing to return until you get everything you want, and bringing in one of the most hated people in North America from New York to threaten us further is not going to work.

 

I would rather the City of Calgary temporarily reduce taxes on oil and gas companies who are laying off employees right now. Offer Amazon zero taxes for a decade. Generate some new investment capital. A new $1.8 billion arena is low on the priority list. Oh, and although I really want the creosote cleaned up, that was a brilliant politiacal strategy to raise that issue. I am sure that warmed up council right from the beginning. I suspect that Nenshi is difficult to deal with. After Mainstream published those less than accurate polls suggesting that Smith would win, I am sure that healed old wounds. 

[DirtyDeeds]

Edmonton model relies heavily on new infrastructure and development to recover costs. They are already ahead of the projections.

[Cowtownguy]

[media]

[/media]

[The_People1]

On 12/24/2017 at 10:32 AM, CheersMan said:

I believe CalgaryNext would have provided the best bang for the buck.

 

I remember seeing a website that listed the most expensive stadiums/arenas every built on the face of the Earth and CalgaryNext's price tag would have ranked #3 all time.

 

And for what?  For a freaking CFL team?  Compared to Dallas Cowboys, Manchester United, Barcelona, New York Yankees, LA Lakers, etc?  Does this even make any sense?  Is this the best bang for the buck?

 

CalgaryNext is a beautiful idea but it is the most expensive solution that could ever have been imagined.  I wish we built it, of course.

[The_People1]

19 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

 The Flames need to start all over again. 

 

I believe so.  It even begins with a new location, arena design, new budget, new people, etc.

[CheersMan]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I remember seeing a website that listed the most expensive stadiums/arenas every built on the face of the Earth and CalgaryNext's price tag would have ranked #3 all time.

 

And for what?  For a freaking CFL team?  Compared to Dallas Cowboys, Manchester United, Barcelona, New York Yankees, LA Lakers, etc?  Does this even make any sense?  Is this the best bang for the buck?

 

CalgaryNext is a beautiful idea but it is the most expensive solution that could ever have been imagined.  I wish we built it, of course.

I’ve never been in any of the buildings or facilities you identified above.  I believe the LA Lakers share a building with the Kings, but do any of the other buildings/facilities accommodate more that one sport?  CalgaryNext could accommodate all the above sporting events plus some, with the exception on MLB.  Do any of those buildings promote public training and activities for amateur sport?  Is the covered BC Place to fancy for the Lions?  CSEC says the cost is $890M, City says its $1.8B, one would think the cost is somewhere in the middle depending of what each side is including in their estimates.

Some can’t see the big picture so they want to start with just an arena and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  Then they want to turn their attention to a stadium and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  Then they want to turn their attention to a field house and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  Then they want to turn their attention to the contaminated land and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  What are all these added up going to cost and where is the savings?

I see the rational for digging one hole, one foundation, one roof, shared walls, one parking lot.  One can only imagine the supporting staff required to manage all the separate sporting facilities but with CalgaryNext the supporting staff (parking attendants, ushers, cooks, servers, cleaners, concessions, restaurant’s, security, police, mechanical, electrical, etc.) would be under one roof serving the entire facility.

I’m not sure if the stadium portion could accommodate a concert, but with 30,000 seats and thousands of possible temporary floor standing/seats, could we see some of the largest concerts imaginable?  Garth would only have had to do one or two shows, not 8.

[stubblejumper1]

17 hours ago, CheersMan said:

I’ve never been in any of the buildings or facilities you identified above.  I believe the LA Lakers share a building with the Kings, but do any of the other buildings/facilities accommodate more that one sport?  CalgaryNext could accommodate all the above sporting events plus some, with the exception on MLB.  Do any of those buildings promote public training and activities for amateur sport?  Is the covered BC Place to fancy for the Lions?  CSEC says the cost is $890M, City says its $1.8B, one would think the cost is somewhere in the middle depending of what each side is including in their estimates.

Some can’t see the big picture so they want to start with just an arena and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  Then they want to turn their attention to a stadium and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  Then they want to turn their attention to a field house and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  Then they want to turn their attention to the contaminated land and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  What are all these added up going to cost and where is the savings?

I see the rational for digging one hole, one foundation, one roof, shared walls, one parking lot.  One can only imagine the supporting staff required to manage all the separate sporting facilities but with CalgaryNext the supporting staff (parking attendants, ushers, cooks, servers, cleaners, concessions, restaurant’s, security, police, mechanical, electrical, etc.) would be under one roof serving the entire facility.

I’m not sure if the stadium portion could accommodate a concert, but with 30,000 seats and thousands of possible temporary floor standing/seats, could we see some of the largest concerts imaginable?  Garth would only have had to do one or two shows, not 8.

 

If the Flames are quoting $890MM and the City is quoting $1800MM, the cost will likely be in excess of $2000MM.  Large scale construction projects rarely come in under estimate.  It is much more likely that an unforeseen expense will be encountered than it is to encounter an unforeseen cost saving measure.  

[Cowtownguy]

59 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said:

 

If the Flames are quoting $890MM and the City is quoting $1800MM, the cost will likely be in excess of $2000MM.  Large scale construction projects rarely come in under estimate.  It is much more likely that an unforeseen expense will be encountered than it is to encounter an unforeseen cost saving measure.  

I completely agree that there are usually cost overruns. I don't understand why these costs are not negotiated in advance of construction given that they are so common.

[redfire11]

48 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I completely agree that there are usually cost overruns. I don't understand why these costs are not negotiated in advance of construction given that they are so common.

There are so many variables when quoting out a large construction project like this one. The only way to retain any semblance of a budget is to pre-assemble  it in modular sections and put together like a lego set on site. This is not going to happen in Alberta. So the only way to quote this is to get a rough idea on material costs, labour costs, and admin costs and hope that the Material and Admin costs are the ones that accelerate beyond budget as they are the easiest for the customer to accept. 

[Flyerfan52]

On 12/25/2017 at 3:24 PM, CheersMan said:

I’ve never been in any of the buildings or facilities you identified above.  I believe the LA Lakers share a building with the Kings, but do any of the other buildings/facilities accommodate more that one sport?  CalgaryNext could accommodate all the above sporting events plus some, with the exception on MLB.  Do any of those buildings promote public training and activities for amateur sport?  Is the covered BC Place to fancy for the Lions?  CSEC says the cost is $890M, City says its $1.8B, one would think the cost is somewhere in the middle depending of what each side is including in their estimates.

Some can’t see the big picture so they want to start with just an arena and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  Then they want to turn their attention to a stadium and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  Then they want to turn their attention to a field house and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  Then they want to turn their attention to the contaminated land and figure out how that’s going to be funded.  What are all these added up going to cost and where is the savings?

I see the rational for digging one hole, one foundation, one roof, shared walls, one parking lot.  One can only imagine the supporting staff required to manage all the separate sporting facilities but with CalgaryNext the supporting staff (parking attendants, ushers, cooks, servers, cleaners, concessions, restaurant’s, security, police, mechanical, electrical, etc.) would be under one roof serving the entire facility.

I’m not sure if the stadium portion could accommodate a concert, but with 30,000 seats and thousands of possible temporary floor standing/seats, could we see some of the largest concerts imaginable?  Garth would only have had to do one or two shows, not 8.

I'm not sure how the funding would have to work for Calgary so I guess there would be a lot of horse trading needed but in the last 2 Jets game I saw how the ice suffers when a NBA team (the main tenant in most American barns) suffers. In Boston & @ Barklay there had been NBA the day before & the ice made the ponds I played on look better. In most barns in Canada the ice only comes out for concerts but those aren't as hard to adjust for as basketball.

Wpg. had an owner that built with some government help (mostly getting extra lottery machines & a bigger cut of the pie from those voluntary taxes) while a different set of owners  of the Bombers got a sweetheat deal but ended up with inferior construction & those dreaded cost over-runs.

The problem might be that Calgary is trying to tie their entire sports scene into 1 package. Jets/Moose sharing an arena & practice facility works while the separate entity of the CFL team is miles away. There also aren't a CHL team nor others like the Roughnecks throwing a spanner in to cause the need for a building that needs that many uses. Maybe shedding the non-hockey parts to others might help so the Stamps, Hitmen & Roughnecks could play out of more suitable locations. WHL doesn't need a NHL arena with 2/3s closed off while football nor lacross are played on ice.

The new arena should be the main concern as the NHL is the main game in Canada. 2nd comes the CFL but it draws well even outdoors as the fans like to brag about braving the elements. WHL can make money in any decent local arena. Not sure how many fans the lacross attracts but probably not a need for 20+ thousand seats.

Concentrate on the 1 part that makes money. Lets the new owners of the rest of those teams sort out deals that help keep the more minor parts solvent.

[CheersMan]

3 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I'm not sure how the funding would have to work for Calgary so I guess there would be a lot of horse trading needed but in the last 2 Jets game I saw how the ice suffers when a NBA team (the main tenant in most American barns) suffers. In Boston & @ Barklay there had been NBA the day before & the ice made the ponds I played on look better. In most barns in Canada the ice only comes out for concerts but those aren't as hard to adjust for as basketball.

Wpg. had an owner that built with some government help (mostly getting extra lottery machines & a bigger cut of the pie from those voluntary taxes) while a different set of owners  of the Bombers got a sweetheat deal but ended up with inferior construction & those dreaded cost over-runs.

The problem might be that Calgary is trying to tie their entire sports scene into 1 package. Jets/Moose sharing an arena & practice facility works while the separate entity of the CFL team is miles away. There also aren't a CHL team nor others like the Roughnecks throwing a spanner in to cause the need for a building that needs that many uses. Maybe shedding the non-hockey parts to others might help so the Stamps, Hitmen & Roughnecks could play out of more suitable locations. WHL doesn't need a NHL arena with 2/3s closed off while football nor lacross are played on ice.

The new arena should be the main concern as the NHL is the main game in Canada. 2nd comes the CFL but it draws well even outdoors as the fans like to brag about braving the elements. WHL can make money in any decent local arena. Not sure how many fans the lacross attracts but probably not a need for 20+ thousand seats.

Concentrate on the 1 part that makes money. Lets the new owners of the rest of those teams sort out deals that help keep the more minor parts solvent.

You might be surprised to hear that the Hitman attendance for a game on Dec 10^th was 18,035, not an everyday occurrence but it happens.  The Roughnecks drew 12,857 for a preseason game on Nov 18^th.  The Saddledome is the only building in the city right now that can accommodate these 3 teams.  When the new arena is built, the Saddledome with likely see a wrecking ball because the operating cost will be too high for new or zero tenants.   If the Flames move into new arena, Hitman and Roughnecks will follow. 

http://calgarysun.com/sports/hockey/history-of-hitmen-teddy-bear-toss-stuffed-with-wonder

http://www.nll.com/news/nll-teams-hit-historic-preseason-attendance-marks/

 

Just an arena still leaves us with a 60-year-old stadium and a field house that is rumored to be highly sought after for decades.  One just happens to fit inside the other which tells me there has to be a significant savings there somewhere.

I’ve sat thru Western finals in -30C when I was younger but never again.  The frigid days are reserved for the younger intoxicated fan while the older fans enjoy it from the comforts of their living room. 

CalgaryNext is not the only answer, but it was a homegrown solution that checked all the boxes.  The number of boxes we want checked off and how they’re checked off is the ongoing debate.

[travel_dude]

9 hours ago, CheersMan said:

You might be surprised to hear that the Hitman attendance for a game on Dec 10^th was 18,035, not an everyday occurrence but it happens.  The Roughnecks drew 12,857 for a preseason game on Nov 18^th.  The Saddledome is the only building in the city right now that can accommodate these 3 teams.  When the new arena is built, the Saddledome with likely see a wrecking ball because the operating cost will be too high for new or zero tenants.   If the Flames move into new arena, Hitman and Roughnecks will follow. 

http://calgarysun.com/sports/hockey/history-of-hitmen-teddy-bear-toss-stuffed-with-wonder

http://www.nll.com/news/nll-teams-hit-historic-preseason-attendance-marks/

 

Just an arena still leaves us with a 60-year-old stadium and a field house that is rumored to be highly sought after for decades.  One just happens to fit inside the other which tells me there has to be a significant savings there somewhere.

I’ve sat thru Western finals in -30C when I was younger but never again.  The frigid days are reserved for the younger intoxicated fan while the older fans enjoy it from the comforts of their living room. 

CalgaryNext is not the only answer, but it was a homegrown solution that checked all the boxes.  The number of boxes we want checked off and how they’re checked off is the ongoing debate.

 

The cost of the stadium(s) aside, the location choice only checked a couple of boxes.  The cleanup alone was enough to doom it.  Nenshi will never agree to pay a cent to clean it up fir any sports facility.  There's no votes available for taking on that monster,  He'll wait until the Feds step in or until low-rent housing or luxury condos are built there that bring him votes.

 

It's pretty clear that Nenshi has a vision for "his" city.  He wants developers to build things according to his plan.  You build the new stadium adjacent to the Dome and we'll tell you what going to be in that area.  His plan may never be built, though he won on the basis of it.     

[Flyerfan52]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The cost of the stadium(s) aside, the location choice only checked a couple of boxes.  The cleanup alone was enough to doom it.  Nenshi will never agree to pay a cent to clean it up fir any sports facility.  There's no votes available for taking on that monster,  He'll wait until the Feds step in or until low-rent housing or luxury condos are built there that bring him votes.

 

It's pretty clear that Nenshi has a vision for "his" city.  He wants developers to build things according to his plan.  You build the new stadium adjacent to the Dome and we'll tell you what going to be in that area.  His plan may never be built, though he won on the basis of it.     

Nenshi reminds me of our mayor. Ours has a vision of rapid transit we can't afford during a time regular ridership is falling because service is so ineptly run (but fares keep going up). Meanwhile the cost of that rapid transit that few want/need rises as the feasibility studies show it to be a hair brained idea. Ours also figures re-opening Portage & Main (the windiest, coldest intersection in NA) to pedestrian traffic  is a great idea even though there was an underground walkway built to faciltate closing it due to the highest death tolls occuring @ what is the junction of the 2 busiest streets in town. They all want a heritage but don't seem to realize that heritage isn't what will have you remembered in a good light. 

 

As far as the cleanup isn't that supposed to be funded by all 3 levels of government? I know finally it all came together for the flooding of reserves in the north out here. In the meantime the residents lived in hotels in & around Wpg. which probably cost as much as rebuilding those towns,

Various departments will obviously fight over which pays what @ all levels (as if the money doesn't come out of the taxpayer's pocket regardless). Whether the cleanup is done for a sports facility or housing it still will need to be done. But politicians think short range as by the time a long range project starts to pay off odds are some other person will have been elected in their stead.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Nenshi reminds me of our mayor. Ours has a vision of rapid transit we can't afford during a time regular ridership is falling because service is so ineptly run (but fares keep going up). Meanwhile the cost of that rapid transit that few want/need rises as the feasibility studies show it to be a hair brained idea. Ours also figures re-opening Portage & Main (the windiest, coldest intersection in NA) to pedestrian traffic  is a great idea even though there was an underground walkway built to faciltate closing it due to the highest death tolls occuring @ what is the junction of the 2 busiest streets in town. They all want a heritage but don't seem to realize that heritage isn't what will have you remembered in a good light. 

 

As far as the cleanup isn't that supposed to be funded by all 3 levels of government? I know finally it all came together for the flooding of reserves in the north out here. In the meantime the residents lived in hotels in & around Wpg. which probably cost as much as rebuilding those towns,

Various departments will obviously fight over which pays what @ all levels (as if the money doesn't come out of the taxpayer's pocket regardless). Whether the cleanup is done for a sports facility or housing it still will need to be done. But politicians think short range as by the time a long range project starts to pay off odds are some other person will have been elected in their stead.

 

That's the theory.  I don't think JT has any interest in fixing the problem, since creosote doesn't vote, and it's west of Ontario.  Notley won't do anything alone.