The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[conundrumed]

56 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

Let us not forget that it is not just council that makes this decision. They have a committee made up of members of the community including business professionals, that have made suggestions to council. I believe that they concluded the location was deficient because the cost of the cleanup was unclear, as was the responsibility for the cost. The Flames needed to either approach council and gain their interest in advance, or engage in the strong arm tactics that Peeps suggested.

The thing I hate most about cleanups these days is they'll blow through $50 mil on study and research before a spade even touches the ground. Then it will be the research group that assigns the company to do the cleanup, further pollititcking the whole and driving the cost skyward with ineptitude.

That's my rant, I've seen this enough times...

 

Cross, why do you think moving the Field house away from the U is so bad? Across the river is not far. McMahon needs upgrade too, so why not bulk it all into one?

I believe Detroit's budget is $730mil for the arena alone, but creating an interconnecting sportsplex at the location draws about another $500mil US.

So $1.2bil total.

All of their pro sports franchises will now be very close together with the Pistons also moving into Little Caesars next year. It is a plexiglass dome also, 1000km S of Calgary, so the greenhouse thing I believe is moot. Although don't get near the sunshine in Calgary due to vast lakes creating cloud cover.

Edmonton's arena was estimated at $480mil, came in around $600mil, but they haven't finalized the infrastructure stuff, so likely have a few 100mil to go.

Just throwing these numbers around for context, as it's likely a billion $ plan we should be looking at. More is really developing the infrastructure around it to finalize.

Less is Edmonton where it's a beautiful facility, but it's pretty much stand alone and still needs some infrastructure spending.

My own thoughts are with Detroit, finish EVERYTHING before opening the doors.

 

[DirtyDeeds]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

Let us not forget that it is not just council that makes this decision. They have a committee made up of members of the community including business professionals, that have made suggestions to council. I believe that they concluded the location was deficient because the cost of the cleanup was unclear, as was the responsibility for the cost. The Flames needed to either approach council and gain their interest in advance, or engage in the strong arm tactics that Peeps suggested.

The city has assumed the responsibility of this cleanup. The company responsible has long since closed it doors. I have read this in multiple places so assume the City is just waiting.. err procrastinating on the cleanup...

[redfire11]

My take on the whole "new calgary arena " is CAN IT.

 

How many of us can afford to go to a game now a days anyways.

 

Dress the sattledome up a little to last another decade or 2 and thats it.

 

Clearly where I would like to see them spend some money is on camera and audio equipment. 20 or 40 x 4 k camera set ups that you can sit at home and choose 4 , 6, or 8 camera feeds on your tv. Flames could sell game streams that would allow you to pick camera feeds to follow the play.

[cross16]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

 

Cross, why do you think moving the Field house away from the U is so bad? Across the river is not far. McMahon needs upgrade too, so why not bulk it all into one?

.

.

 

 

Are you thinking of Sait? Because the west village is much more than "across the river" from the U of all C. 

The point of a field house is the development of amateur sport, track and field etc. The vast majroty of those athletes are housed at the u of c and have support facilities at the u of c. So it doesn't make sense to me that you are going to build something that far away from the group you are trying to support. 

[Cowtownguy]

5 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

The city has assumed the responsibility of this cleanup. The company responsible has long since closed it doors. I have read this in multiple places so assume the City is just waiting.. err procrastinating on the cleanup...

That was my understanding as well. I did hear something to the effect on the radio that they were considering going after the company that made the mess. I understood that it has since shut it's doors, but there was apparently some possibility of recovering capital somehow. I was a little confused about it. Surely, the province would have to kick in some cash here. 

[CheersMan]

57 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Are you thinking of Sait? Because the west village is much more than "across the river" from the U of all C. 

The point of a field house is the development of amateur sport, track and field etc. The vast majroty of those athletes are housed at the u of c and have support facilities at the u of c. So it doesn't make sense to me that you are going to build something that far away from the group you are trying to support. 

How about a Field House centrally located in between all 3 major Calgary Universities/Colleges (SAIT, MRU and U of C)?  CalgaryNext is a 10 minute drive from all three locations. 

[cross16]

8 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

How about a Field House centrally located in between all 3 major Calgary Universities/Colleges (SAIT, MRU and U of C)?  CalgaryNext is a 10 minute drive from all three locations. 

 

Great except Sait and MRU don't have the facilities nor the athletes that U of C does. Servicing them is irrelevant. 

[CheersMan]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Great except Sait and MRU don't have the facilities nor the athletes that U of C does. Servicing them is irrelevant. 

MRU and SAIT would probably disagree with you, they might even tell you their athletes are better. The EDM field house is 5 km from the U of A, opposite ends of DT and across the river from each other, never hear anyone complaining up there.  With all the field houses in Canada, I guess we had better get busy building Universities around all of them by your logic.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

MRU and SAIT would probably disagree with you, they might even tell you their athletes are better. The EDM field house is 5 km from the U of A, opposite ends of DT and across the river from each other, never hear anyone complaining up there.  With all the field houses in Canada, I guess we had better get busy building Universities around all of them by your logic.

Honestly I don't think KK is the guy to be carrying this project forward and the Flames organization need to can him.

[CheersMan]

11 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Honestly I don't think KK is the guy to be carrying this project forward and the Flames organization need to can him.

Have you been living under a rock?  I think KK has been doing an outstanding job with this building proposal and I’m not sure if there is anyone out there that could do a better job with it.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

Have you been living under a rock?  I think KK has been doing an outstanding job with this building proposal and I’m not sure if there is anyone out there that could do a better job with it.

Tremendous job, flat out lost any toehold there was for the project. Are you his brother ? Do you even know Ken King ?

[Carty]

Nenshi also seems to have forgotten that there is a council that gets to vote and he is not a dictator that can call the shots...   To come out and declare that the idea of Calgary Next is dead was pompous and short sighted...   He did not handle the situation very well...

 

For a mayor that wants to make an Olympic bid that will require new facilties, he could stand to learn a few things about diplomacy...

 

Have to wonder how long he will leave the creosote to cause even more damage over time...   His intentions seem to be to sweep it under the carpet and leave it for the next mayor to deal with...   The sooner the land is reclaimed for whatever purpose it ends up being used for, the sooner the city starts generating revenue from it to help offset the clean up costs..   If he expects help from the province and the feds, he should have been lobbying for it a long time ago...   The longer it is left, the further the toxic hazard spreads and the more it will cost to clean it up...

 

[CheersMan]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Tremendous job, flat out lost any toehold there was for the project. Are you his brother ? Do you even know Ken King ?

No, he is not my brother.  Would it make any difference if he was?  Do you give family members free passes?  I don’t, I hold them to higher standards.  I have had conversations with the man, solid guy, providing leadership and vision.  Now it’s up to the people to decide how they want this community to move forward.  Some are happy with status quo, some are happy with duct tape and adding a few cameras, some would like state of the art facilities to move the city into the 21^st century at every level of sports and entertainment.  Make your choice then be prepared to live with it.

[travel_dude]

Guys, let's keep the opinions away from borderline personal attacks.  

 

[Carty]

Word is that 'King' Nenshi is really a penguins fan, and just doesn't want the Flames to have a new arena...

 

         

[Cowtownguy]

The Flames will get a new arena. It is just a matter of when they get it, what the facility will look like, where it will be located, and how it is paid for. I suspect that it will be a decade before it is built, it will not be as decadent as currently proposed, it will not be on the West end (which I don't think is a terrible site, but those I know, in the know, claim it is terrible), and taxpayers will put up considerable money towards it. I just think that the timing is terrible and I cannot yet see the entire strategy the Flames have used, assuming that there is much of a strategy.

 

What I find unusual is how Canada has not really developed a relationship as to how stadiums should be handled. The US is far more advanced in this regard. I really think that the Flames should target an airport tax to generate revenue as some of the Texas teams have done. That way you generate a consistently vibrant income paid, in part, from non-Calgarians. Also, incorporate a ticket tax for the future stadium now. The two revenue streams will reduce the amount of capital put up front, reduce the traditional financing that has to occur, and make it more palatable for John and Joanne Q taxpayer. This "honey" approach before, or combined with, Peeps horrible, but effective, strong arm tactics, are the way to get this problem solved IMO. Either way, I don't think that the existing strategy has been effective, and bringing back Bettman will just make the whole process more toxic. Albertans don't need New Yorkers coming in telling us what our priorities should be, thanx.

[conundrumed]

17 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Are you thinking of Sait? Because the west village is much more than "across the river" from the U of all C. 

The point of a field house is the development of amateur sport, track and field etc. The vast majroty of those athletes are housed at the u of c and have support facilities at the u of c. So it doesn't make sense to me that you are going to build something that far away from the group you are trying to support. 

No, not at all. I just think when you have a city University it's not unusual to have specialized "campuses" dotted around the city. Then it's just a matter of transporting the athletes.

And sorry cross, in terms of a drive or C-train, that's a pretty quick jaunt down Crowchild, but it depends on scale. It's definitely a bit of a walk lol.

I don't disagree it should be at the main campus, but if you can build a state of the art sportsplex I don't think you're creating a tragedy for the university, but expanding it's part in the entire community. It may make it more accessible for the public to support. It's no different than the U having access to WinSport facilities.

[conundrumed]

There's a decent write up on Detroit's new venue here:

 

https://www.si.com/nhl/2016/07/08/inside-detroit-red-wings-little-caesars-arena

 

can't wait for the tour!!

[MAC331]

14 hours ago, conundrumed said:

There's a decent write up on Detroit's new venue here:

 

https://www.si.com/nhl/2016/07/08/inside-detroit-red-wings-little-caesars-arena

 

can't wait for the tour!!

The West end site IMO would be ideal, not only for the Arena but from an urban development standpoint. The area and traffic plans need some real changes applied to improve Calgary for the future. There is this clean up that shouldn't be delayed any longer. The traffic patterns are forever a bottleneck at peck times or events happening. There is a real opportunity to do this right and still have something all Calgarians can be proud of.

[cross16]

17 hours ago, conundrumed said:

No, not at all. I just think when you have a city University it's not unusual to have specialized "campuses" dotted around the city. Then it's just a matter of transporting the athletes.

And sorry cross, in terms of a drive or C-train, that's a pretty quick jaunt down Crowchild, but it depends on scale. It's definitely a bit of a walk lol.

I don't disagree it should be at the main campus, but if you can build a state of the art sportsplex I don't think you're creating a tragedy for the university, but expanding it's part in the entire community. It may make it more accessible for the public to support. It's no different than the U having access to WinSport facilities.

 

You can still build an arena/stadium without the fieldhouse so I don't see the need to have the field house in west village. It was only a ploy by King and Co to put it in there so it looks like the project isn't taking as much tax payer dollars as it is. Continuing talking about the west Village is fine by me but just take the fieldhouse out and put it where it should go. 

[The_People1]

32 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

You can still build an arena/stadium without the fieldhouse so I don't see the need to have the field house in west village. It was only a ploy by King and Co to put it in there so it looks like the project isn't taking as much tax payer dollars as it is. Continuing talking about the west Village is fine by me but just take the fieldhouse out and put it where it should go. 

 

Do you think an arena alone in West village is more viable?  Creosote cleanup will still be $300-million regardless.

[CheersMan]

I’m thinking a field house at the U of C would have no roof -too expensive, making it useful for maybe 6 months of the year.  A field house incorporated into CalgaryNext would have a roof making it useful year round?

I think the conversation needs to be the clean-up.  Can it be cleaned up?  How much to clean up?  How long to clean up?  If this task can not be done then everything else is for not.

[travel_dude]

26 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

I’m thinking a field house at the U of C would have no roof -too expensive, making it useful for maybe 6 months of the year.  A field house incorporated into CalgaryNext would have a roof making it useful year round?

I think the conversation needs to be the clean-up.  Can it be cleaned up?  How much to clean up?  How long to clean up?  If this task can not be done then everything else is for not.

 

I don't think they can even put a price on it today.  You would have to do a full assessment to know the true costs, and that is only valid for today's prices.  There is no way that the current mayor wants to do anyting with it, with a potential $1b cost.  Realistically, it's a cost that would have to be borne by three levels of government, though.  

[cross16]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Do you think an arena alone in West village is more viable?  Creosote cleanup will still be $300-million regardless.

 

The Creosote cleanup costs have been estimated to be between 85-150 million depending on how quickly the city wants it done. 

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/toxic-creosote-in-calgarys-west-village-not-our-problem-says-domtar

 

I woudln't say so personally, only becuase I don't see the value in spending the money to clean up the land, give up the future property tax revenue, just so they can move an Arena from Victoria Park to West Village. Might as well stay in Victoria Park and let the city develop West Village on its own. I think the main attraction to CalgaryNext, at least for me, is the idea of moving a Stadium downtown so if you are not going to do that I personally don't find value in the arena being there. 

 

1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

I’m thinking a field house at the U of C would have no roof -too expensive, making it useful for maybe 6 months of the year.  A field house incorporated into CalgaryNext would have a roof making it useful year round?

I think the conversation needs to be the clean-up.  Can it be cleaned up?  How much to clean up?  How long to clean up?  If this task can not be done then everything else is for not.

 

City of Calgary has had plans to build a fieldhouse long before CalgaryNext came around and have already budgeted (but not funded) 200million to do so and yes the existing City plans called for a roof. http://www.calgary.ca/CSPS/Recreation/Documents/Research-and-development/Concept-plan-full.pdf

CalgaryNext pulled this into their project as way to try and "save" the city money and get more public funding for the building without appearing as they were taking as much from the tax payer. 

 

It can be cleaned up yes just depends on how long you want to wait and how much you want to spend. Above articled I linked, and form what I remember about the report, as that it would be between 85 - 150 million. The 85 million option could take upwards of 7-8 years however before the land was ready to be built upon while the $150 million would take around 4-6 years. Worth noting, that CalgaryNext disputes this data but to date has not gone public with their own data or own survey to demonstrate it. 

[conundrumed]

For anyone wondering exactly what creosote contamination means, it is from a wood-preserving facility, now long gone and bought by Domtar, a major, MAJOR pulp-and-paper Corporation.

A few decades back, I worked at Domtar shutdowns in Quebec.

Chances are better than average that Domtar bought the facility without doing their due diligence. Yet it is their field of expertise.

Now, they are saying they are not responsible for any clean up.

I don't know why this isn't in court, on Domtar's tab to clean up.

 

Now, creosote. On the banks of our river, due to human incompetence.

Do we just say, oh well? Or do we kick accountability in the nether regions? I'm a fan of the latter.

 

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/sites/KerrMcGee/docs/Creosote Health Effects (Tronox).pdf