Who Should We Fashion Or Rebuild Around?

[TrippinVdUb]

Its all about the return when it comes to Sven, is someone out there willing to trade prospect for prospect based on that potential? Can we turn him into a Pulock/Morrisy/Matta type dman? If so then move him and get back a return that will help us were we lack, thats what drafting BPA is really all about. Maybe we dont need another left winger, but if said left winger is the best player on the board and you can develop him into an asset then you draft said player and move him when his value is at a high.

On the other hand, keeping Sven around doesn't hurt, we have time to teach him how to play the game and develop his skill set to fit into the NHL, if for what ever reason he becomes a busy, well then thats on management, its also why everyone says the draft is anything but a sure thing.

Personally I only move Sven if he can bring back a RW or Dman with the same ceiling. Anything short of that and I hold on and see what he becomes.

[cross16]

I think the problem with Sven is only smart part him and a majority the poor job of the flames. Of we were sitting here today and Sven had played no NHL games but had decent AHL success, which he did last year at the end, no one would bat and eye we would all say good prospect. But because Sven has had two opportunities to makes the club and has failed to run with it we view that as a set back, but at the end of they day whose fault was it that Sven was even in the conversation to make the team? I'm both cases Svens at in the preseason didn't not warrant a spot on the team but yet in both cases we were told this was can't miss kid we were lucky to get bit that did Bly correspond to his play. The only problem I have ever had wth Sven is I was dissapointed in his mindset over last summer that he didn't come in with a more desperate mindset in terms kf making the team last year but I completely agree that calling Sven a reclamation prospect or suggesting he's been giving multiple changes and failed is getting way too ahead of ourselves. Wotherspoon isn't ready for the NHL should we give up in him? Backund is finally joe making the NHL what kf te flames had done what the leafs did worh Colbotne and given up on him for a measly draft pick? You need patience with prospects and two seasons of pro hockey is not enough. I yhjnk this offseason is critical for Sven and if he comes into camp this year with the same lacksidasical attitude he had last year I will fully agree you have to move on but until then patience is the way too go

[TrippinVdUb]

Not sure I agree because Bob Hartley, an offensive minded coach, is still the coach. If Brad wants the Flames to be the Coyotes, then he would've started with the firing of Hartley. Hartley is going to play an uptempo game that allows the blueliners like Brodie, Russell, Giordano, and Wideman to go on the offense.

Also, if we want players to compete in all 3 zones, then he should let Cammalleri go but he isn't. There are contract extension talks.

Cammys value to this team goes well beyond what he does on the ice, he is a key contributor to the identity the flames want to create.

As far as Hartley goes, the guy has proven his worth, love the game and is probably the most passionate coach we have seen behind the flames bench in years, he has done anything to warrant getting the axe.

[CheersMan]

Worst Trades in Flames History -Written by Kent Wilson

ROB RAMAGE AND RICK WAMSLEY FOR BRETT HULL AND STEVE BOZEK

It’s a huge risk trading away someone as obviously talented as Brett Hull. Even at that early stage of his career, it was already obvious that this son of a hockey legend clearly had an amazing gift. Hull had torn up the NCAA with 52 goals in 42 games in his final season, then bagged 50 goals and 92 points in 67 games in the AHL before earning 27 goals and 24 assists in 57 games as a Flame. Calgary was trying to put the final touches on a Stanley Cup contending team, but they clearly sacrificed too much.

Brett Hull scored an amazing 714 goals and 1340 points in his remaining 1212 games, while Steve Bozek enjoyed another 54 goals and 108 points in his 256. According to GVT, together they earned a whopping 310.1 goals above replacement value.

Compare that with the 46.4 goals of value that the Calgary Flames received in exchange: Rob Ramage played another 369 games, scoring 31 goals and 105 points, while Rick Wamsley played 122 games with a respectable goals-against average of 3.30 and save percentage of .877. Respectable players, to be sure, but the types of players you could get without sacrificing a generational talent like Hull had the potential to become.

Despite winning the Stanley Cup, was it worth moving Hull for Ramage and Wamsley? Wamsley didn’t even help win the Cup, he played only one period, and allowed two goals in ten shots. In fact, Wamsley’s post-season goals-against average was 8.08 in four seasons with the Flames. Rob Ramage may have been key, scoring 12 points and finishing 2nd among Flames defenseman to Conn Smythe winner Al MacInnis, but Brett Hull could have potentially helped the Flames win many Cups, and could have helped them avoid the seven-year play-off drought that was to come.

In the end, this one trade cost them 263.7 goals in value, making it stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the worst deals in NHL history.

***************************************

The Flames walked from MSL which diminishing his value in the eyes of the rest of league. Yes he was 25 but it was still a mistake. Both these cases were costly lessons learned. Let's not give up on a 21 yr old Sven who has shown signs that he can be the real deal.

[CheersMan]

My above reply was directed at FF52's last two quotes.

[stubblejumper1]

Maybe.

Or if Hull hadn't been traded maybe we wouldn't have won the Cup in 1989.

 

Heck, if we'd quit & traded all vets on the way to the ditch back in the early 2000s & not traded for Kipper we'd have Crosby, 1 of OV or the Weasel & assorted top players. Iggy would have fetched @ least a 1st so if we'd decided on the 2003 draft you can add Getzlaf to those 1s.

Playing maybe can go any way you want it to. Save the pretend for NHL 14 though.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Wow.  The Flames went 15 years without winning a playoff round, yet they would have been worse off with Brett Hull in the lineup.  Hull would have really struggled playing alongside Nieuwendyk and Fleury.

 

Wow.  The Flames are the only team to let a future Hart Trophy and/or Art Ross Trophy winner walk (in the middle of a 7 year playoff drought,) yet they would have been worse off if they had offered Martin St. Louis a two-way contract or a minimal one way contract.  St. Louis would have really struggled playing with Iginla.

[cross16]

Worst Trades in Flames History -Written by Kent Wilson

ROB RAMAGE AND RICK WAMSLEY FOR BRETT HULL AND STEVE BOZEK

It’s a huge risk trading away someone as obviously talented as Brett Hull. Even at that early stage of his career, it was already obvious that this son of a hockey legend clearly had an amazing gift. Hull had torn up the NCAA with 52 goals in 42 games in his final season, then bagged 50 goals and 92 points in 67 games in the AHL before earning 27 goals and 24 assists in 57 games as a Flame. Calgary was trying to put the final touches on a Stanley Cup contending team, but they clearly sacrificed too much.

Brett Hull scored an amazing 714 goals and 1340 points in his remaining 1212 games, while Steve Bozek enjoyed another 54 goals and 108 points in his 256. According to GVT, together they earned a whopping 310.1 goals above replacement value.

Compare that with the 46.4 goals of value that the Calgary Flames received in exchange: Rob Ramage played another 369 games, scoring 31 goals and 105 points, while Rick Wamsley played 122 games with a respectable goals-against average of 3.30 and save percentage of .877. Respectable players, to be sure, but the types of players you could get without sacrificing a generational talent like Hull had the potential to become.

Despite winning the Stanley Cup, was it worth moving Hull for Ramage and Wamsley? Wamsley didn’t even help win the Cup, he played only one period, and allowed two goals in ten shots. In fact, Wamsley’s post-season goals-against average was 8.08 in four seasons with the Flames. Rob Ramage may have been key, scoring 12 points and finishing 2nd among Flames defenseman to Conn Smythe winner Al MacInnis, but Brett Hull could have potentially helped the Flames win many Cups, and could have helped them avoid the seven-year play-off drought that was to come.

In the end, this one trade cost them 263.7 goals in value, making it stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the worst deals in NHL history.

***************************************

The Flames walked from MSL which diminishing his value in the eyes of the rest of league. Yes he was 25 but it was still a mistake. Both these cases were costly lessons learned. Let's not give up on a 21 yr old Sven who has shown signs that he can be the real deal.

That's exactly the problem with breaking everything down into numbers you miss the contributions numbers can't measure. Ramage was key to shutting down the opposition and filling in their depth to the point I don't think they win the cup without him. Easy to say that they win multiple cups with him but remember that the flames still had a ton of offence over the next few years and they would have had to deal him by the mid 90s anyway when salaries got out of control. Any trade that wins you a Stanley cup is never in the conversation of worst deals in history and I dnt think hull would have made any difference to future cups in calgary.

[Carty]

Worst Trades in Flames History -Written by Kent Wilson

 

I remember reading the article a couple of years back on flamesnation.ca   He was right in that it was one of the worst trades in Flames history...   As we all know, it ranks right up there with Gilmour, St. Louis, Savard and Phaneuf...   Heck, I'm still choked about the returns the Flames got for Iggy and JBo too...  

 

That said, I admit when it happened I was not happy about the trade or the return the Flames received...   But, did Hull not want out of Calgary?...   Seems to me I remember hearing that he did...

 

Despite winning the Stanley Cup, was it worth moving Hull for Ramage and Wamsley? Wamsley didn’t even help win the Cup, he played only one period, and allowed two goals in ten shots. In fact, Wamsley’s post-season goals-against average was 8.08 in four seasons with the Flames. Rob Ramage may have been key, scoring 12 points and finishing 2nd among Flames defenseman to Conn Smythe winner Al MacInnis, but Brett Hull could have potentially helped the Flames win many Cups, and could have helped them avoid the seven-year play-off drought that was to come.

 

I have a few problems with the point Wilson was trying to make here...

 

He conveniently left out the fact that Ramage really stepped up after Suter went down with a broken jaw during the first round against the Nucks and had he not, the Flames run quite possibly would have been finished much earlier...   To answer the bolded part, the Flames did win the cup with Ramage on the team, and it is just speculation on his part to insinuate that that they would have won "many" cups with Hull..   If the question is "Would I take the Cup win or would I rather they had kept Hull on the team with just speculation they could have won many more" I'll take the Cup win every time...  There is no doubt that Hull went on to be a great player, but after all, Hull did not win a cup until he was with Dallas playing with Nieuwendyk and Modano and his cup winning goal is still one of the most controversial in the history of the league...   Under the rules in place at the time players were not allowed in the goalie's crease unless the puck was already there, so the goal should not have counted, and that rule no longer exists...   Either way. it's not like Hull was a one man Cup magnet after he was traded...

 

Besides, I'm still PO'ed that he chose to play for the US instead of Canada...  

[tmac70]

Hull was a hell of a player but not in Calgary. From what I remember he wanted out, he was always out of shape and had a really bad attitude about playing in Calgary. 

[DirtyDeeds]

Hull was not considered a generational player. No generational player is drafted 117th overall.

[CheersMan]

Hull was not considered a generational player. No generational player is drafted 117th overall.

Wilson said that Hull had the potential of becoming a generational player. The Hull statistics which Wilson quoted in his first paragraph were achieved after Flames drafted Hull. Those stats would suggest that he was on the verge of becoming a generational player. History now tells us that Hull was a generational player.

[cross16]

People are also making it seem like the flames didn't know what they had I'm Hull and gave up on him too soon, which is not the case. I don't have a link right now but there is a fletcher quote out there along the lines of I traded a 50 goal scorer for the Stanley cup. Flames knew hull was going to be a very good player and took a calculated risk that paid off, they did not give up on an asset too soon.

[Carty]

When looking back at the trade, consideration also has to be made that Ramage had been the 1st overall draft pick in the 79 draft and he was a 6'2" 210 top D with a right hand shot in his prime...   The Flames were an offensive powerhouse, but they needed help on the defensive side...

 

[CheersMan]

People are also making it seem like the flames didn't know what they had I'm Hull and gave up on him too soon, which is not the case. I don't have a link right now but there is a fletcher quote out there along the lines of I traded a 50 goal scorer for the Stanley cup. Flames knew hull was going to be a very good player and took a calculated risk that paid off, they did not give up on an asset too soon.

 

The Flames knew they had a cocky offensively talented 23yr old named Brett Hull who could maybe score 50 one day, but Fletcher never dreamed Hull would go on to score, 41, 72, 86, 70, 54, 57 the following 6 years in a row and retire with 844 goals.  Hull also went on to win World Cup gold, Olympic silver, Canada Cup silver, Stanley Cup twice, Hart Trophy, Lester B Trophy,  8 All-Star games.  He also never once missed the playoffs in his entire NHL career.

Ramage’s contribution in 89 (the only full year he played for the Flames) was significant, I’m not arguing that.  Was he considered for the Conn Smythe Trophy that year?  No, not even close.  The following year (1990) Ramage was shipped off to TML for a 28th draft pick.  That draft pick never played one game for the Flames before he too was shipped off to TML in the Doug Gilmore free give-away sweep stakes.  Sorry, I’m rambling now.

The point I’m trying to make is you have to give young players a fighting chance.  Hull never had a chance as a Flame because of our depth at the time and now some here want to ship Sven out of town after 51 gms, which is 6 gms fewer than what Brett Hull received.  Maybe Sven will be a bust but I’d sooner be patient with this player to see what his top end could be rather than trade him now for what crumbs some team may be willing to offer. 

Fletcher will defend that trade because he made it.  That trade is considered to be one of the worst in NHL history.  Just think if the Flames hadn’t won the SC in 89?  No SC, no Hull and Fletcher would have been done in the hockey world.

[Flyerfan52]

Fletcher will defend that trade because he made it.  That trade is considered to be one of the worst in NHL history.  Just think if the Flames hadn’t won the SC in 89?  No SC, no Hull and Fletcher would have been done in the hockey world.

But they won the Cup in 1989. Just pretend doesn't work against history.

Those who consider it 1 of the worst are looking @ "what ifs" & wondering if keeping Hull would have led to multiple Cups.

What if is easy but doesn't change solid proof of the Cup win.

 

I'm not sure how many that regret that trade are old enough to remember the win 25 years ago but it certainly was a boost for Calgary in an era when the Oilers were coming off a run of 4 Cups in 5 years.

 

As to the 2 that were traded or released I'm sure DD or Carty can rattle off many the Flames traded that fizzled elsewhere but gave us better players.

[Carty]

Exactly FF52...

 

Looking back, maybe I could have put things differently in an earlier post for clarification of intended meaning...   Just my opinion, but on paper the Hull trade could be considered one of the worst trades in Flames history*  when looked at over time and only considering the stats of the players involved...   But it comes with an asterisk...

 

While I initially did not like the trade right when it happened, as events unfolded in 89, I saw the results of the addition of Ramage and then understood Fletcher's motives for making that trade and came to agree with it and still do...

 

At that point in time the Flames were an offensive powerhouse, but they needed help on the defensive side, and they got it in a first overall draft pick in his prime with Ramage...

 

Even if Ramage had not gone out with a broken jaw in the first round against the Nucks would they have gone on to win the Cup without Ramage...   Likely not, because they had still needed to add balance to the D side even with Suter...   Because Suter was in fact knocked out of commission, the Flames odds of winning the Cup without Ramage would have decreased quite significantly...   Ramage was the right player to add at the right time...

 

As I said before, if the question is "Would I take the Cup win or would I rather they had kept Hull on the team with only speculation that they could have won many more" I'll take the Cup win every time...   It is something special in Flames history, and something that can never be taken away, given away, lost or traded...    Having won the Cup is a part of franchise history that the Nucks and their fans, as well as a list of other teams and their fan bases can only wish that they could lay claim to

 

Fletcher when talking about the trade at a later date was asked if he thought at the time that Hull would go on to have the career he did...   Fletcher answered something along the lines of (and I am paraphrasing here) "Did we know he would likely be a 40 or 50 goal scorer? sure we did...   Did we have any idea that he would put up 72 or 86 a few years later...   I don't think anyone did...   But at the time he was a player that we could trade as we were strong at forward positions that we could get a good value return back to fill an important need on defense...

 

Something else to note, in 87, Brett Hull was cut from team USA's roster for the Canada Cup in favour of Chris Nilan...   http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2014/01/09/chris-nilan-recalls-making-team-usa-for-1987-canada-cup/

 

I mentioned the Nucks a few times here already, so I will also add my opinion that if they had added a missing piece or two for their recent cup run things might have gone differently (thank goodness they didn't   )...    The same can be said for the Flames in 04...   If they had only added another piece or two to the puzzle it is possible that the disallowed goal in game 6 would have never have been the issue it was as they might have been ahead by a better margin...   Just speculation I know, but the point is that we have all seen the difference how with the addition of even one player if he is the right one at the right time at can make a difference to put a team over the edge to up the odds of winning a Cup...   Look at Hossa and the Hawks in his first year with the team in 09/10...   Not his best year stats wise, but Hossa was the first player that Toews handed the Cup to...   He was the right player to add at the right time, the missing piece of the puzzle...

 

 

some here want to ship Sven out of town after 51 gms

 

Not me, I can look up right now and see an autographed picture of Baertschi on the ice in a Flames uniform on the wall in front of me that was given to me before he actually even played a regular season game...   It hasn't moved an inch since I hung it there...   I still think that he will be an important part of the Flames for years to come, and hope that maybe at some point this season he will become a part of the team on a more permanent basis...

[kehatch]

It was one thing trading Hall when he wanted out and it was for the finishing pieces of a cup team. But what does that have to do with the current situation and trading Baertschi?

[Kulstad]

It was one thing trading Hall when he wanted out and it was for the finishing pieces of a cup team. But what does that have to do with the current situation and trading Baertschi?

 

the whole "being burned by trading a 'star' way too soon" is how I'm interpreting it.

[The_People1]

Winning a Cup justifies everything. 

 

If we traded Baertschi and the pieces we got back for him won us the Cup, then it was worth it even if Baertschi goes on to have a hall of fame career.

 

Dallas Stars gave us Jarome Iginla and they justified it with a Cup win.

[kehatch]

Winning a Cup justifies everything.

If we traded Baertschi and the pieces we got back for him won us the Cup, then it was worth it even if Baertschi goes on to have a hall of fame career.

Dallas Stars gave us Jarome Iginla and they justified it with a Cup win.

Agreed. But we aren't going to be trading Baertschi for a cup. So the entire argument is moot IMO.

[CheersMan]

Not me, I can look up right now and see an autographed picture of Baertschi on the ice in a Flames uniform on the wall in front of me that was given to me before he actually even played a regular season game...   It hasn't moved an inch since I hung it there...   I still think that he will be an important part of the Flames for years to come, and hope that maybe at some point this season he will become a part of the team on a more permanent basis...

 

Is your Baert wearing a grey jersey with black flaming C, and Trevlivings "BP" logo is on the side boards? 

[robrob1974]

The Flames knew they had a cocky offensively talented 23yr old named Brett Hull who could maybe score 50 one day, but Fletcher never dreamed Hull would go on to score, 41, 72, 86, 70, 54, 57 the following 6 years in a row and retire with 844 goals.  Hull also went on to win World Cup gold, Olympic silver, Canada Cup silver, Stanley Cup twice, Hart Trophy, Lester B Trophy,  8 All-Star games.  He also never once missed the playoffs in his entire NHL career.

Ramage’s contribution in 89 (the only full year he played for the Flames) was significant, I’m not arguing that.  Was he considered for the Conn Smythe Trophy that year?  No, not even close.  The following year (1990) Ramage was shipped off to TML for a 28th draft pick.  That draft pick never played one game for the Flames before he too was shipped off to TML in the Doug Gilmore free give-away sweep stakes.  Sorry, I’m rambling now.

The point I’m trying to make is you have to give young players a fighting chance.  Hull never had a chance as a Flame because of our depth at the time and now some here want to ship Sven out of town after 51 gms, which is 6 gms fewer than what Brett Hull received.  Maybe Sven will be a bust but I’d sooner be patient with this player to see what his top end could be rather than trade him now for what crumbs some team may be willing to offer. 

Fletcher will defend that trade because he made it.  That trade is considered to be one of the worst in NHL history.  Just think if the Flames hadn’t won the SC in 89?  No SC, no Hull and Fletcher would have been done in the hockey world.

 

In those stanley cup wins, Hull was older and just an add on to those teams. Albeit a piece, but he wasn't a main focus part of the teams that won those cups. Dallas could have easily lost when that goal should have been disallowed. In Detroit, he was in his twilight. Other than that, he made teams better. 

 

Also, with the way the Flames cleaned house in the 90s, how long would Hull have been a Flames player? Economics seemed to have a big play in who we kept. It's too bad the team didn't have the right coaching staff in over the few years after the win because even with the players left over from the win, the Flames could have still been a powerhouse. Our biggest mistake, in my opinion, was getting rid of Gilmour. 

 

Hull wasn't really a leader type of guy. Being added to Detroit, he played in the system and added to what was already there. The same thing in Dallas. 

My biggest regret would have been getting rid of the core group that remained after winning the cup. 

[robrob1974]

Gilmour

Nieuwendyk

Roberts

Fleury

Otto

Hrdina

Mullen

 

MacInnis
Suter

Macoun

McCrimmon 

Natress

 

 

Added 

Makarov

Ranheim

 

Look at that core. There are other supporting cast players of course which  didn't add. Hull would have been a nice piece, but we really should have won a few more Cups after 89 with that core. We had the perfect 3rd and 4th lines too. I guess there was the Stanley Cup hang over and playing Gretzky in the first round against the Kings didn't help that year after.

[Carty]

Is your Baert wearing a grey jersey with black flaming C, and Trevlivings "BP" logo is on the side boards? 

 

It's the red jersey with the white flaming C and FedEx on the boards with a black frame and matting, Flames pin inset at the top, and bronze colored plaque at the bottom...   I saw them on occasion at Fan Attic stores later on, but I had one given to me months in advance of them being sold at the stores...   They had actually made a number of them up ahead of his ever playing a regular season game in anticipation of his arrival on the team, no doubt in large part due to the Feaster hype machine...

 

Long story short, when my house burned down with everything in it including decades worth of hockey memorabilia, one of the locations was trying to help replace some of the key items I had lost and I had asked if there was any way that they could get me a specific Iggy jersey autographed and framed...   They had said that they would see what they could do, and I ended of getting a phone call and the manager of the store put me in contact with someone in the Flames organization...   Next thing you know I got a return call saying they had the jersey for me... When I went to pick it up the nice lady said "Here's a little something for you", and gave me the pic...   I paid quite a bit for the Iggy Jersey as it was in a deluxe frame with a good size Flaming C etched into the glass in the bottom right where it shows up nicely against the black bottom of the sleeve on a red jersey, just like the one I had that had been crispy crittered, but the Baertschi pic was a gift, as they knew I was a fan of his from a few of the conversations we had...

 

They even managed to get me other replacements for me like an autographed and framed Kipper pic with an inlaid puck and a plaque with his stats that commemorated his Vezina year in 05/06 exactly like the one I had before the fire, as well as a number of other rare items going back to the glory days in the late 80's...   They spent a lot of time and effort to get me some of these things, and I spent a lot of money, but it was worth it...   To me it was also an example of a first class organization going to a lot of trouble to help out a die hard fan to replace lost treasures for his man cave...

[MAC331]

I would considering trading Backlund and Baertschi to WIN for E.Kane if we could pull off another trade with LA for Richards and Toffoli. A top line of Kane LW, Richards C, Toffoli RW would serve our rebuild well.