Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[kehatch]

Gaudreau prides himself on not missing games due to injuries.  It could certainly be the type of injury that he would fight through in a playoff push. But it almost certainly is an injury.  

 

To bad Stajan and Bollig can't get the hung nail though.  I would prefer to see Grant at centre and I would like to see a bit more of Hamilton as well.  

[redfire11]

I think we got caught up in the craze and forgot what these players were.

 

We seem to forget and are misguided on how we made the playoffs last year. This statement from jj says it all. We made the playoffs last year because Dallas, LAK, SJS took the year off. Even if Ramo/Hiller, Hartley, Gio, JH, Hudler etc. would have had another career year I DON"T THINK we would be playoff bound this year. We need some elite (or close to elite) talent to push us ahead of Dallas, LAK, SJS, Min. to make the playoffs. And we will need to do that through the draft and BT pulling some rabbits out of a hat. Minimum 2 more years WITH excellent drafting and miracle trades before we are playoff bound.

[MAC331]

If on ice performance is all that matters, then we are worse this year. Period. Offensively. Defensively. In net.

Because last year's core was still considerably veteran laden. Including net.  And they overachieved.

 

We can think of filling immediate holes, or we can think of ensuring our rebuild has a strong pipeline to make this team elite defensively, offensively, and in net.

 

I call filling holes, the bandaid approach.    Others will call it continual improvement (without noticing that we never actually get anywhere).

 

I call focusing on prospect development, a rebuild.   Others will call it "tanking".  If our focus is on anything other than our immediate need.   

 

Yes, our biggest immediate need is net.   No, it is not a path to the cup.   There is Always another hole to fill.  Because filling holes is costly and inefficient.   The only time hole filing makes sense, is when it's the Last hole.  The difference between the Cup and 2nd place.   That's not the stage we're at.   If we blow our cap to bring in an average net minder, all it will do is expose our defense.  And we'll have nothing left to fill that hole with.

Nobody knows what next year holds. But to assume that goaltending is the key....is correct. If your goal is to cheer for an average team for the next decade.

You are making less sense with every post. CYA

[jjgallow]

[sarcasm] Indeed.  Because getting a goalie obviously precludes further development from our young core as well as the GM making improvements in other areas.  Clearly the solution to win a cup is to trade Giordano and Gaudreau for 20 year old goalie prospects who can battle it out in camp with the surviving two kicking off the real rebuild. [/sarcasm]

 

 

I'll bite.

 

We got a goalie previously, in Ramo and Hiller, to "get us through the rebuild".

 

So yeah, tried that.

 

couple problems:    

 

1.   NHL ready goalies Worth acquiring....aren't cheap.  Or aren't available.

 

2.   rebuilds take a while.  Everyone on this board knows it's true and most of us want to find a way around it.  

 

      There isn't a way around it.

 

So we did the veteran thing, and we got into the playoffs, rather than getting McDavid.

 

But the "Win Now" camp STILL isn't happy.   Because...we're getting worse.

 

That's what happens when you're a rebuilding team and your whole focus is making the playoffs.

 

 

Yes, I'm proud of the team last year.   No, I'm not proud of some of the management decisions.  Keeping Hudler past due.  Bringing on goalie vets that could Never get us where we really need to go anyway.  Questionable contract extensions.

 

 

So Gaudreau and Giordano:    No, we're not trading them both for goalie prospects.   And you know I never meant that.

 

 

Gaudreau is part of the rebuild.    But he is more valuable market-wise, then playoff-wise.     As much as he is part of our rebuild, if another Big Market team were to make a Big Market offer for him, we could talk.   Yes, a strong elite G, or strong elite D, would be worth listening over.   Depending on the offer.

 

Giordano:  Is Not really part of the rebuild, other than mentoring.    Do you trade him for an elite goalie prospect?  Or an elite RW prospect?    Depends, again, on the offer. 

 

They're not untouchable.   That doesn't mean we give them away, obviously.   They're extremely valuable to this team.  But not untouchable.

[MAC331]

We seem to forget and are misguided on how we made the playoffs last year. This statement from jj says it all. We made the playoffs last year because Dallas, LAK, SJS took the year off. Even if Ramo/Hiller, Hartley, Gio, JH, Hudler etc. would have had another career year I DON"T THINK we would be playoff bound this year. We need some elite (or close to elite) talent to push us ahead of Dallas, LAK, SJS, Min. to make the playoffs. And we will need to do that through the draft and BT pulling some rabbits out of a hat. Minimum 2 more years WITH excellent drafting and miracle trades before we are playoff bound.

Sometimes that is just the way it goes down but it doesn't or shouldn't take away what the 2014/15 team accomplished regardless. This year it was our team that couldn't get it together, that is how it goes. Sure we got lucky last season and this year took on another purpose which was to gain this young core more experience which it has done. I don't view this season as a failure in not making the playoffs, you are correct in saying we need a few more pieces yet. We also need the right amount of experience.

[AlbertaBoy12]

I'll bite.

 

We got a goalie previously, in Ramo and Hiller, to "get us through the rebuild".

 

So yeah, tried that.

 

couple problems:    

 

1.   NHL ready goalies Worth acquiring....aren't cheap.  Or aren't available.

 

2.   rebuilds take a while.  Everyone on this board knows it's true and most of us want to find a way around it.  

 

      There isn't a way around it.

 

So we did the veteran thing, and we got into the playoffs, rather than getting McDavid.

 

But the "Win Now" camp STILL isn't happy.   Because...we're getting worse.

 

That's what happens when you're a rebuilding team and your whole focus is making the playoffs.

 

 

Yes, I'm proud of the team last year.   No, I'm not proud of some of the management decisions.  Keeping Hudler past due.  Bringing on goalie vets that could Never get us where we really need to go anyway.  Questionable contract extensions.

 

 

So Gaudreau and Giordano:    No, we're not trading them both for goalie prospects.   And you know I never meant that.

 

 

Gaudreau is part of the rebuild.    But he is more valuable market-wise, then playoff-wise.     As much as he is part of our rebuild, if another Big Market team were to make a Big Market offer for him, we could talk.   Yes, a strong elite G, or strong elite D, would be worth listening over.   Depending on the offer.

 

Giordano:  Is Not really part of the rebuild, other than mentoring.    Do you trade him for an elite goalie prospect?  Or an elite RW prospect?    Depends, again, on the offer. 

 

They're not untouchable.   That doesn't mean we give them away, obviously.   They're extremely valuable to this team.  But not untouchable.

Seriously what are you talking about? 

 

Where are we getting this elite goalie? If we are trading gio whos replacing him?

 

If we trade gio you have suggested trading JH for an elite d man, since we obviously dont have enough of those. Are we magically getting more superstar left wingers to fill Gaudreaus spot? There is no reason to trade either of them and we arent going to.

[jjgallow]

 

Where are we getting this elite goalie? If we are trading gio whos replacing him?

 

That was what everyone said about Hudler last year before the trade deadline.

 

Too irreplaceable.  Untouchable.

 

That's what everyone said about Iginla until he was well out of his prime too.

 

 

Your question is a good one.   How to replace Giordano.

 

Whether we trade him or not, has nothing to do with that question.  He gets older every year.  And he's never been an 82 game player to begin with.

 

We will have to answer that question whether we trade him or not.   Same as we did with Hudler, with Iginla, same as we are still trying to do with Kipper.  The list goes on.

 

And the story is the same, everytime.  The rally of fans to hold on.  Change, never popular.

 

Irreplaceable, until of little value. 

 

I'm not saying that we have to trade Gio.

 

But he's not untouchable.

[cross16]

You are assumign the Flames would have got a haul for Hudler, which I think is innaccurate. personal I don't think the Flames get all that much more for him that they did at the trade deadline this year. 

 

Hudler is another classical example of a fan base overrating what they have/had. "Quick trade him while he had a career year and get max value before he regresses and loses his value". do you seriously not think that a league full of people who have been around the games for hundreds of years combined would not have seen the same thing? 

 

Flames knew they were losing him. If they wanted to keep Hudler long term they would not have acquired Frolik. Flames got a 2nd and a 4th for him and I don't see you doing a whole heck of a later better last offseason. In fact you could argue you might due worse becuaes teams would want to trade your salary instead of picks. 

[MAC331]

You are assumign the Flames would have got a haul for Hudler, which I think is innaccurate. personal I don't think the Flames get all that much more for him that they did at the trade deadline this year. 

 

Hudler is another classical example of a fan base overrating what they have/had. Most people agreed last off season that Hudler had very little chance of repeating his numbers and was going to regress, so why is it we think the league didn't know that? Do people honestly think any GM would have valued Hudler as a legit top 10 point producer last season?

 

YOu might have got a little more but not drastically so IMO. I don't think a team was going to give you a top prospect for Hudler last offseason either. I've read lots of reports that the Flames listened to offers on Hudler but they weren't going to give up unless they were swayed. I don't think you would have got a package that would have changed your mind as I think teams realize that Hudler is an average top 6 forward and you just dont' overpay for that in trade.

 

Flames knew they were losing him. If they wanted to keep Hudler long term they would not have acquired Frolik. 

I think the Flames got excellent value from Hudler with his time here. He was a solid player and gave of himself to bring Gaudreau and Monahan along but I think his work was done here.

[kehatch]

That was what everyone said about Hudler last year before the trade deadline.

Too irreplaceable. Untouchable.

That's what everyone said about Iginla until he was well out of his prime too.

Your question is a good one. How to replace Giordano.

Whether we trade him or not, has nothing to do with that question. He gets older every year. And he's never been an 82 game player to begin with.

We will have to answer that question whether we trade him or not. Same as we did with Hudler, with Iginla, same as we are still trying to do with Kipper. The list goes on.

And the story is the same, everytime. The rally of fans to hold on. Change, never popular.

Irreplaceable, until of little value.

I'm not saying that we have to trade Gio.

But he's not untouchable.

It's easy to say trade someone. You keep doing it. But it's a completely useless statement in and of itself.

"I think we should trade Giordano for Hamonic and a first" is a statement that can generate conversation. "I think we should trade Gaudreau for Pouliot and Murray" is a statement we can talk about.

But a multi page essay that basically says "we should trade Giordano because he is old" or "we should trade Gaudreau because Monahan is better" aren't going to generate a lot of positive dialogue. Targeting the Flames best players to trade them for something just because is silly.

[jjgallow]

It's easy to say trade someone. You keep doing it. But it's a completely useless statement in and of itself.

"I think we should trade Giordano for Hamonic and a first" is a statement that can generate conversation. "I think we should trade Gaudreau for Pouliot and Murray" is a statement we can talk about.

But a multi page essay that basically says "we should trade Giordano because he is old" or "we should trade Gaudreau because Monahan is better" aren't going to generate a lot of positive dialogue. Targeting the Flames best players to trade them for something just because is silly.

 

well...i took it further than this post did, anyway

[jjgallow]

You are assumign the Flames would have got a haul for Hudler, which I think is innaccurate. personal I don't think the Flames get all that much more for him that they did at the trade deadline this year. 

 

I kind of feel like you're hand-picking a small piece of my arguement.

 

And by "feel", I mean...you are, lol.

 

I may or may not agree with your point of view on Hudler.   But I would question how relevant that is.  When I'm tossing around names like Iginla, Kipper, Hudler, (and you know there's sooooo many more).....is Hudler the first that comes to your mind?

 

You also know...and this might actually take us back on topic for this thread....

 

that the effect of trading Hudler would have been two-pronged.     Better value back (we can debate how much if you really want)...

 

And, a better draft day.  (especially if a goaltender was thrown in)

 

Possibly Hanifin, instead of Hamilton.   With a boatload more 2nds.  Or, for all we know, even McDavid.

 

However you spin it, we would be in a much better place with our rebuild right now.

 

 

It would be great, if we can not even have that arguement (of course we will)....I know, what it really comes down to....is....   Is that tanking?

 

It would be, if we gave him away for nothing.   

 

But we're talking about a trade.

 

p.s...you say that the whole league, with hundreds of years (you've got better math than that cross) of experience, all knew Hudler wasn't worth much last year.  Which is funny, because if they all really thought that, they'd all be wrong.  Hudler had 8 points and 4 goals in 11 games with us in the playoffs.   He was phenomenal.  I think he was our best player.   And he Could have Easily been the difference, for some other close teams.

[AlbertaBoy12]

I kind of feel like you're hand-picking a small piece of my arguement.

 

And by "feel", I mean...you are, lol.

 

I may or may not agree with your point of view on Hudler.   But I would question how relevant that is.  When I'm tossing around names like Iginla, Kipper, Hudler, (and you know there's sooooo many more).....is Hudler the first that comes to your mind?

 

You also know...and this might actually take us back on topic for this thread....

 

that the effect of trading Hudler would have been two-pronged.     Better value back (we can debate how much if you really want)...

 

And, a better draft day.

 

Possibly Hanifin, instead of Hamilton.   With a boatload more 2nds.  Or, for all we know, even McDavid.

 

However you spin it, we would be in a much better place with our rebuild right now.

I think ive got a pretty good feel of what you want now.

 

Its almost like you want this perfect world where we have a top 4 of players 21 and under all with elite potential. A forward group of superstars, and a goalie that is 21 or under with elite/superstar potential. This isent NHL 15 or 16 jig some of the things you are suggesting are ludicrous. 

 

Im not sure why you would want hanifin over hamilton or what the huge deal is with trading hudler so we can tank. I dont want to insult you but you are basically adovcating a tank so we can have all these young high end players, thats what would have made you happy and not put us in "win now" mode. I have taken points from all the posts you have been making, and I just dont know what else it could be at this point with you.

[Flyerfan52]

If on ice performance is all that matters, then we are worse this year. Period. Offensively. Defensively. In net.

Because last year's core was still considerably veteran laden. Including net.  And they overachieved.

 

We can think of filling immediate holes, or we can think of ensuring our rebuild has a strong pipeline to make this team elite defensively, offensively, and in net.

 

I call filling holes, the bandaid approach.    Others will call it continual improvement (without noticing that we never actually get anywhere).

 

I call focusing on prospect development, a rebuild.   Others will call it "tanking".  If our focus is on anything other than our immediate need.   

 

Yes, our biggest immediate need is net.   No, it is not a path to the cup.   There is Always another hole to fill.  Because filling holes is costly and inefficient.   The only time hole filing makes sense, is when it's the Last hole.  The difference between the Cup and 2nd place.   That's not the stage we're at.   If we blow our cap to bring in an average net minder, all it will do is expose our defense.  And we'll have nothing left to fill that hole with.

Nobody knows what next year holds. But to assume that goaltending is the key....is correct. If your goal is to cheer for an average team for the next decade.

So we should build the whole team through the draft & hope that the G, D & forwards all come together @ the same time? There is a need for vets on every team (dynasty Oilers brought a few from the WHA @ Gretzky's request).

New prospect goalies (like Ortio) combined with keeping only youth on D is a disaster in the making.

[jjgallow]

I think ive got a pretty good feel of what you want now.

 

Its almost like you want this perfect world where we have a top 4 of players 21 and under all with elite potential. A forward group of superstars, and a goalie that is 21 or under with elite/superstar potential. This isent NHL 15 or 16 jig some of the things you are suggesting are ludicrous. 

 

Im not sure why you would want hanifin over hamilton or what the huge deal is with trading hudler so we can tank. I dont want to insult you but you are basically adovcating a tank so we can have all these young high end players, thats what would have made you happy and not put us in "win now" mode. I have taken points from all the posts you have been making, and I just dont know what else it could be at this point with you.

 

Okay.   I can understand how it would seem that way.   Mostly it's because I have free time today lol.

 

First of all, I hate computer games.

 

Secondly, it's not that I want Hanifan more.  This is about value.  Pieces.   I knew as soon as I wrote that, Somebody was going to bring that up.   The point I'm making is that we would have had Better bargaining chips, or maybe even the potential to acquire Both of them.   Boston was looking to unload Hamilton and there were other ways we could have made that work.   Obviously I don't know, exactly what it would have been.  But I do know we would have walked away with More.

 

   And do you know what it would mean if we acquired both?   It would mean that I wouldn't be annoying everyone on here about defence.  How nice would that be, on its own?

 

 

Thirdly, I'm not advocating a tank.  I don't believe in tanks, and I don't believe in rebuilds (as something most teams should look forward to).   I believe in steady progress.  But we got away from that too long, and rebuild became necessary.  Everyone from management to the players to the fans agreed on that and understood it.

 

So yeah...last year, that's Not what we did.  We signed and rode veterans into the playoffs.   We had opportunities to capitalize on their value and we missed those opportunities.  Because of Win Now.

 

Think that we actually went as far as to get rid of Iggie, Bouwmeester..... and try to trade Kipper.  Many more.   We were Committed.  To All that.  To what was essentially a Gutting.  And we were All cool with it.

 

And a year later, when we have Zero chance at the cup, to think that people are crying bloody murder at the Thought...JUST the thought...of trading Hudler?

 

How does that happen, exactly?

[jjgallow]

So we should build the whole team through the draft & hope that the G, D & forwards all come together @ the same time? There is a need for vets on every team (dynasty Oilers brought a few from the WHA @ Gretzky's request).

New prospect goalies (like Ortio) combined with keeping only youth on D is a disaster in the making.

 

We have our fair sure of D vets, no?  Are we really at risk in any way of having an all-rookie D lineup?  I'm not really seeing that myself.  My guess is...in an alternate reallity, Gretzky would have requested Engelland...no?   Fine with me if he does.

 

I'm actually advocating almost the exact opposite at this point, FF.   I totally agree with you that they can't all just happen at the same time.   Yes, I wish we did some things differently in the past.

 

Moving forward, I think we need another elite D prospect.    And I don't mean through the draft.  Too long.  Exactly like you say.   I think it has to be a trade at this point.   Another Hamilton trade.

 

The Last thing I'm worried about is wingers.   They can be vets, they can be whoever.  Couldn't care less at this stage.  Again, as you say, can't do em all at the same time.   IMHO we should start from G and D out.

 

In terms of G, I think it's salvageable.  That Doesn't mean next year would be pretty.   But I feel a bit better with every game Ortio plays.   And when Gillies is back next year, there is going to be light at the end of the tunnel.  

 

I just don't think we should spend a lot on G.  I don't.  Especially if its only short term benefit.    And if we do invest there, yeah, I think it should be someone younger.   Disagree if you want, but I'm not advocating all-rookie D, or all-rookie forwards.   Wingers, I could care less how old they are.    At this point.   D should be a mix.  But the Talent..should be young.   We need talented young D coming up.  Even if it's in the AHL.

[CheersMan]

You are assumign the Flames would have got a haul for Hudler, which I think is innaccurate. personal I don't think the Flames get all that much more for him that they did at the trade deadline this year. 

 

Hudler is another classical example of a fan base overrating what they have/had. "Quick trade him while he had a career year and get max value before he regresses and loses his value". do you seriously not think that a league full of people who have been around the games for hundreds of years combined would not have seen the same thing? 

 

Flames knew they were losing him. If they wanted to keep Hudler long term they would not have acquired Frolik. Flames got a 2nd and a 4th for him and I don't see you doing a whole heck of a later better last offseason. In fact you could argue you might due worse becuaes teams would want to trade your salary instead of picks. 

 

Bingo.  The Flames new Hudler would leave a hole on RW which is why they acquired Frolik last offseason.  The Flames had a master plan and followed it right to the TDL.  The return we got for Hudler was excellent.  I highly doubt we could’ve gotten more last summer, particularly after his relatively poor but injured playoff performance.  The TDL was the optimum time for the Flames to trade Hudler.

[CheersMan]

I think ive got a pretty good feel of what you want now.

 

Its almost like you want this perfect world where we have a top 4 of players 21 and under all with elite potential. A forward group of superstars, and a goalie that is 21 or under with elite/superstar potential. This isent NHL 15 or 16 jig some of the things you are suggesting are ludicrous. 

 

Im not sure why you would want hanifin over hamilton or what the huge deal is with trading hudler so we can tank. I dont want to insult you but you are basically adovcating a tank so we can have all these young high end players, thats what would have made you happy and not put us in "win now" mode. I have taken points from all the posts you have been making, and I just dont know what else it could be at this point with you.

 

I think any player with a razor would be considered to old for his team.  Then when the kids win the SC, and they all want to get paid at the same time, he trades them for kids one year younger.  And so the cycle goes.

[jjgallow]

The Flames had a master plan and followed it .....

 

Made my day

[CheersMan]

Made my day

 

That’s much better, now people will read that.  When someone see’s a post a mile long they just pass right on by to the next one.

[phoenix66]

See, last night was a perfect example of NOT tanking ... we had 4 kids with little to no NHL experience , tossed into a game, no Johnny,  and into important situations. A great excuse for a loss. But we didnt start Hiller , No , we started the goalie with the best record (for us) who would possibly help cover up the mistakes that were going to happen ...play for the result, not the pick

[darth_henning]

   D should be a mix.  But the Talent..should be young.   We need talented young D coming up.  Even if it's in the AHL.

 

Hickey. 

 

Andersson. 

 

Kylington. 

 

Your argument is invalid. 

[travel_dude]

See, last night was a perfect example of NOT tanking ... we had 4 kids with little to no NHL experience , tossed into a game, no Johnny,  and into important situations. A great excuse for a loss. But we didnt start Hiller , No , we started the goalie with the best record (for us) who would possibly help cover up the mistakes that were going to happen ...play for the result, not the pick

 

Arizona was missing Doan and Stone, so there was a good chance we win the game.  Playing Bollig almost 12 minutes doesn't help your argument, though.  

 

Had this been a game with playoff implications, there wouldn't have been a raft of kids.  Johnny would have played.  Bollig would not have played that much.

 

No, the Flames are not playing for a draft pick improvement.  Hartley wants to win as much as any coach.  The players are playing for contracts and jobs.  And pride.  You will see they try to beat Anaheim, LA, Vancouver and Edmonton.  Especially EDM and ANA.

 

Hiller will get at least one more start, and Backstrom will get the final game (or Hiller).

[The_People1]

Had this been a game with playoff implications, there wouldn't have been a raft of kids.  Johnny would have played.  Bollig would not have played that much.

 

Totals man.  "Had this been a game with playoff implications" a.k.a. "Had this been a game where both teams needed to win".  In other words, this was a game both teams didn't care to win.  Which is the same as both teams didn't mind to lose.

[CheersMan]

With that lineup you could argue it was tanking on managements part.  However, players and coaches are not wired to tank, they play to win.

 

On the other hand, given the situation (out of playoffs) and just a handful of games remaining, providing an opportunity to the younger players is a future investment and gives them a taste of what’s required to make the next step.  This tank talk will never go away until we become a playoff team with all roster spots solidified.  Right now we are trying to build a team and develop players.  I would not call that tanking.