Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[tmac70]

No member on the boards is a member of the management team as far as we know.  Does that mean no one should have an opinion on observable results from the management team, including yourself?  No. I have presented empirical evidence to support the notion that management is accepting a high draft pick as a result of this up coming season with either an incompetence to steer the course another way, or with conscious intentions to do so.

 

I feel it's a conscious intention to do so and I also feel that's completely fine.

 

Let's take a closer look at the points you casually presented to dismiss this notion.

 

Player availability:  Plenty of impact UFAs were available and yet the Flames were only able to land a Toronto Maple Leafs castaway, a low pair Dman, and a former #1 goalie.  We will never know who they talked to so either this means management is incompetent, or they intentionally didn't try to improve the team by targetting impact UFAs.

 

Player desire to come/stay here:  The Flames are rebuilding and its difficult to attract impact UFAs. Yet the Sabres are coming off one of the worst winning percentages in NHL history to attract a better group of UFAs overall.  Buffalo is a small market much like Calgary.  Both are cold in the winter and don't offer the lifestyle available in warmer places.  So, this means either management is incompetent, or they intentionally didn't try to improve the team by targetting impact UFAs.

 

$$$ Factor:  Flames ownership is fine spending to the cap and the Flames have an abundance of cap space so that's not an excuse for failing to land an impact UFA.  There was lots of $$$ available.  Perhaps Treliving didn't want a bad contract.  Yet,  he overpaid for Engelland so that's not an excuse either.  To me, he just wanted to hit the cap floor while getting a RH shot with the Engelland signing.  What do you guys think?

 

Future vision of management: impact RFAs are expensive to acquire in the form of high draft picks.  The trades route would cause holes on the Flames who are thin on talent in almost every area. With such little resources available in the arsenal to acquire better players coupled with large unknowns with how their current prospects turn out in the coming years, management really doesn't have a lot of options but to be patient (a.k.a. let the season play out).

 

By getting Raymond, Engelland, Hiller, and Bollig, Management appears to be sheltering the younger kids from the shock and responsibilities of losing by plugging the roster with complementary veterans to shoulder the blame.  The Flames will lose games but management will not allow a losing culture to be established with the young core.

 

The Flames are drafting high next season and management has more or less accepted.  I hope some of you guys would too.

If I am not mistaken term and length of term were huge issues for BT, which they should be. So why acquire an FA that has to over compensated to be here in a rebuild, not sound mgnt skills. Secondly, just because we have money smart people invest it wisely and fool throws it out the window.

 

We are picking high as you pointed out by the process on we are building not tanking, that is the largest difference. From BT interviews they believe both Bollig and England can play at a higher level than they have. Did we pay more for England than we should have, possibly. I would rather have over paid him on a short term than longer.

[Wreckening]

If I am not mistaken term and length of term were huge issues for BT, which they should be. So why acquire an FA that has to over compensated to be here in a rebuild, not sound mgnt skills. Secondly, just because we have money smart people invest it wisely and fool throws it out the window.

 

We are picking high as you pointed out by the process on we are building not tanking, that is the largest difference. From BT interviews they believe both Bollig and England can play at a higher level than they have. Did we pay more for England than we should have, possibly. I would rather have over paid him on a short term than longer.

Not only was it a weak draft year it was and is a weak FA.  I like the moves Treliving made.  Yes he may have overpaid on Englland but that's the only overpayment I see.  And it was out of necessity to reach the cap floor.  As far as Hiller goes I think the term and dollars is right on.  He's a starter and he's going to push Ramo and we'll see just what we have in him.  At first I was leary of this and thought it was kind of a slap to the face of Ramo but I've had some time to think on it and I keep coming back to the same thing.  This is the NHL, there's always going to be someone after your job so get used to it.  It may have actually harmed Ramo having a true back up as his relief.  Where's the drive going to come from?  Where's the urgency in his game if he knows he's the starter and there's no real competition?  This will either make or break Ramo as the saying goes and I for one will be watching the goaltending very closely.  Yes Ramo should be the starter, but.......if he struggles in camp and Hiller shines you have to think Hartley will be in a tough position.  As far as this whole losing for higher draft order business goes I think we have to wait and see what moves are still to be made.  I don't think Treliving is done.  Well, I think he's done with UFA's, I don't think he's done making deals.

[TrippinVdUb]

I like how were still having this conversation over a year later lol...

All I have to say about this anymore is... GO FLAMES GO!

[Da4RealDeal]

I am really sick of so called sports fans, also Flames fans even allowing this talk.

 

I would much rather miss out on every good available draft possibility for our team by trying to win

than doing the opposite of what a sport is about. The sport of the sport is to compete to a teams full potential.

 

What is wrong with you people?

 

IMO what BT has done so far has improved us. Bollig is underrated. We were missing a big body to stand in front of opposing goalies on the PP. He comes from a winning culture much like England. I believe the new Dman can play bigger minutes, his play does resemble our captains play.

 

Mason Raymond wants to be here and WILL put up good numbers out of a pride thing. He is fast and could play great with Backlund and say Granlund. If Glencross ever plays a full season for us he easily puts up 30-35 goals. A few of the under producers are gone, no longer taking up space like TJ Galiardi Jones, Westgrath.

 

I am sorry but Cammi was a selfish player. He was terrible in his own end, doesn't play in the corner, shys away from ever contact he can. He to me was a waste of money just to buy a goal. IMO Setagochi is better, go ahead and laugh, but Cammi is a one dementional player with tunnel vision over rated and moody with his play. Setagochi plays every zone and fits our aggressive new style and on a prove it short contract I believe he has a 20-25 goal season and 100X more hits than Cammi.

 

Also there is still the possibilities that they add another piece Hiller wins us 10 more games than we got last year. What does this say for the standings???????

 

 

NOOOOO MacDavid Burger for you praying none believers.....lol 

[DirtyDeeds]

I am really sick of so called sports fans, also Flames fans even allowing this talk.

 

I would much rather miss out on every good available draft possibility for our team by trying to win

than doing the opposite of what a sport is about. The sport of the sport is to compete to a teams full potential.

 

What is wrong with you people?

 

IMO what BT has done so far has improved us. Bollig is underrated. We were missing a big body to stand in front of opposing goalies on the PP. He comes from a winning culture much like England. I believe the new Dman can play bigger minutes, his play does resemble our captains play.

 

Mason Raymond wants to be here and WILL put up good numbers out of a pride thing. He is fast and could play great with Backlund and say Granlund. If Glencross ever plays a full season for us he easily puts up 30-35 goals. A few of the under producers are gone, no longer taking up space like TJ Galiardi Jones, Westgrath.

 

I am sorry but Cammi was a selfish player. He was terrible in his own end, doesn't play in the corner, shys away from ever contact he can. He to me was a waste of money just to buy a goal. IMO Setagochi is better, go ahead and laugh, but Cammi is a one dementional player with tunnel vision over rated and moody with his play. Setagochi plays every zone and fits our aggressive new style and on a prove it short contract I believe he has a 20-25 goal season and 100X more hits than Cammi.

 

Also there is still the possibilities that they add another piece Hiller wins us 10 more games than we got last year. What does this say for the standings???????

 

 

NOOOOO MacDavid Burger for you praying none believers.....lol 

 

+1 for you and your low post count........

[Da4RealDeal]

I have been reading for years and mostly I get a laugh at all the different opinions, but recently I have decided to share my opinion. I am not expecting many to value it.....lol but if some do and it leads to good topic conversation than I am in.

[robrob1974]

The ditch people are happy because we largely avoided the UFA frenzy so didn't overpay mediocre players (which most with a few exceptions like Statsny were) & take that as a sign that management is trying to follow their preferred path. Few were what I would call "impact players".

 

However, without overpaying there are very good players that will have to be shed by some teams to get under the cap. The reason they will be available is simply due to cap space so doesn't involve trading prospects earmarked as needed for the future but those deemed redundant because only a few with = skill sets, size & playing a given position can be on a team @ a given time. Later draft picks (odds get very slim by the 3rd) cost the other team 0 against cap space as do players still in college.

The players shed won't be the superstars but many would upgrade our top 6 & top 2 defensive pairings.

*******************************************************

I'm not sure how many of the "lose to win" crowd are serious & how many are simply trolling because they know many posters see that rarely successful method as abhorrent & are pulling our chains.

 

For those that blindly follow the 1 course they have decided on it's easy to skew any detail to fit a limited view.

 

 

I think that management is starting to see a trend in the playoffs. Who have been the more successful teams? The Blackhawks and the Kings have won how many times in the last 5-6 years? How many of their own drafted players have been on those teams? 

 

We're not in a position to get rid of our own draft picks or our own prospects to trade for high profile difference makers. It makes no sense to deal our picks or prospects at this time. The only players I would have targeted were Stastny and Niskinin, maybe a few bottom guys, but that's it. Maybe if we got Stastny signed, Cammalleri may have stayed. But for the long term, it's in our best interest to draft our own and build up our prospects and depth. 

ThePeople were mentioning Buffalo as a place that some free agents went this year. Take a look at where Buffalo is. It's in a metropolitan area surrounded by Toronto, close to New York and other cities concentrated within that area. Of course they're going t pick Buffalo over Calgary right now. 

 

I think if we help the teams get under the Cap, we can't give up too much. It's the only way that happens. How much do we give up? Or is the trade simply, we take a draft pick and the high contract player? Or do we have to give something up in return?

[Flyerfan52]

I have been reading for years and mostly I get a laugh at all the different opinions, but recently I have decided to share my opinion. I am not expecting many to value it.....lol but if some do and it leads to good topic conversation than I am in.

I'll agree with DD.

Welcome aboard & I look forward to your future posts.

[Flyerfan52]

I think if we help the teams get under the Cap, we can't give up too much. It's the only way that happens. How much do we give up? Or is the trade simply, we take a draft pick and the high contract player? Or do we have to give something up in return?

I thought I covered that in my post that you quoted.

Redundant players & later picks that we can well afford to trade without hurting the future for players that help in the now & future.

 

You can only draft high for so long before they lose heart knowing they face years of losing. Showing management is working hard to improve gives them expectations they will see playoffs relatively soon.

[Carty]

I am really sick of so called sports fans, also Flames fans even allowing this talk.

 

I would much rather miss out on every good available draft possibility for our team by trying to win

than doing the opposite of what a sport is about. The sport of the sport is to compete to a teams full potential.

 

There are many of us that agree with your point of view...   But there are a few that support "tanking", and they are quite relentless with their attempts at trying to rationalize why they think it's ok, or even the best plan for a team to do that...

 

What is wrong with you people?

 

I have often wondered the same thing myself...  

 

[Lucid_Flame91]

Man people are so bitter around here, oh well enjoy the high draft picks, I know I will.

[Da4RealDeal]

Please people don't get me wrong, I would like the high draft pick but I would really like to hold my head up high and say we tried as well. Calgary is most likely going to do there best to acquire as many pieces they can to improve, but I fell the only way we end up with a high pick is come deadline time next season we make moves for higher picks by moving some final pieces to the right teams, which in turn puts us closer to the top pick when we subtract those pieces from our puzzle without any addition. 

 

One thing to think about that hasn't been mentioned is, Calgary has some of the best and most faithful fans in the league. We have only the one cup and we all feel like we have come from an original six type team culture. How would we all feel if we honestly knew that a "tank" took place in our town? Wouldn't that stay with us much longer than whom ever we drafted? I would rather make the playoffs in a few seasons with the guy we drafted 15th and go out in the 1st or 2nd round (swept even) than lose in the finals (or win) only to have some other fans look down on us for asking for the "tank". Thanks but no thanks, I respect myself, my team, and my fellow Calgarians way to much to even be seen on this topic after this....GO Flames GO

[kehatch]

When I evaluate what management has done so far:

 

1. Manangement sat Cammalleri for the final game of the regular season and the Flames got blown out of the waters.  That, with an Islanders win, the Flames slipped to 4th overall in the draft.

 

2. Management either failed to, or intentionally did not plan to re-sign Cammalleri.

 

3. Management then either failed to, or intentionally did not plan to replace Cammalleri's scoring.  The Flames used to be two players short of a legit NHL first line.  Now they are three players short of a legit NHL first line.

 

4. Overpays Deryk Engelland, a low pair Dman, to reach the cap floor.

 

5. Sign a back-up to $4.5-mil-per to reach the cap floor.

 

These are signs that point to a management group that is either incompetent at making impact moves, and/or, is intentionally not trying to win next season (a.k.a. going for McDavid).  What do you guys think?

 

I think you are taking a number of points out of context and using them to come to an odd and unsupported conclusion.  The Flames don't have the assets to make the impact moves without blowing their future.  The Flames also aren't going out of their way to finish lower in the standings.  

 

They are adding vets to support the kids. They are adding size to protect the kids and keep them confident.  They are adding leadership to help with development.  They are protecting future assets to make sure we have a future.  They are limiting term so long term commitments don't jeopardize the rebuild.  And they are adding players at key positions (i.e. Hiller) so the Flames can be as competitive as possible while we rebuild.  

 

Suggesting that a lack if impact moves is the Flames being inept or the Flames trying to tank is wrong IMO.  They are creating the best development environment they can and being as competitive as they can. 

[Carty]

Please people don't get me wrong, I would like the high draft pick but I would really like to hold my head up high and say we tried as well.

 

Many of us feel the same way...   I couldn't possibly be any happier that the Flames drafted Monahan and Bennett...   But we acquired them honestly without tanking, and that is the difference between those of us that feel it is more important to maintain integrity, dignity, and pride, and the minority that support tanking on purpose...

 

That said, I believe that there also are a good number of us that also have realistic expectations for the upcoming season(s), and recognize that the Flames have a long ways to go with both player development and changes to the roster in order to make any significant progress moving up the ladder, let alone getting to the point of where they can be considered a contender...   and it will be a bumpy ride...

 

In all likelihood, the Flames will have at least a season or two of drafting higher than we all became accustomed to over a substantial period of time...   But I will take solace in the fact that there is doubt that if they are drafting high, they will have gotten to that point without tanking on purpose..   Last season, the Flames consistently played with more heart and effort than I have seen in quite some time, and I look forward to seeing more of the same this season...

 

I also look forward to the league finally getting around to making alterations to the draft lottery starting with the upcoming season...   Hopefully they will do it in such a way as to continue with the effort of having parity, but also remove the incentive that less scrupulous teams might have to tank for the top picks...   

 

This year we got lucky and got Bennet at #4...   I like to think it was due to the cosmic principle of rewards and punishments for the acts performed...   They played to win, but were simply outplayed...   Unlike recent seasons, it was not due to a lack of effort...   and this time they were rewarded for it...

[DirtyDeeds]

Many of us feel the same way... 

.......

 

This year we got lucky and got Bennet at #4...   I like to think it was due to the cosmic principle of rewards and punishments for the acts performed...   They played to win, but were simply outplayed...   Unlike recent seasons, it was not due to a lack of effort...   and this time they were rewarded for it...

 

Karma thing all the way.. to reward the fans who supported the efforts......

 

Those who supported tanking should be thanking us  for all the good karma...

[SKarkemSK]

Most Knowledgable flames fans also take into account we lost like 30 some games by 1 goal. Our identity now is hard work, the flames dont tank, they're just bad. Its not managements fault, its hard to make trades, and aren't we glad that (hudler, backlund, and wideman) are still on the team also for most free agents its about term more than $$$ that is why I believe Cammellari left. This will be the last "bad" year, and I kind of doubt we will be bad enough for a lottery pick.

[The_People1]

Some good reads in this thread over the weekend.  There's too much to quote in reply but i think we all mostly agree the Flames are trying to win in the future, not now.  

 

kehatch and cross:

 

The Flames are not "tanking" but let's be fair for a second.  There really isn't a whole lot more to tank from here on in.  The Flames are already a bottom 4 team in the league and roster wise, are projected to be another bottom 5 team.  In other words, staying where they are is a tank to a large degree and those who recognize the importance of a high draft pick are cheering for the Flames to have another one next season.

 

So with that said, inaction is an action.  By the lack of significant moves by management to change course, it suggests the management team is okay and focused on drafting in the bottom 5 again.

 

You suggest the Flames have little to no options so they can't make a move even if they wanted to but this is not true because the Flames have prospects they can move for developed players who can help win right away.   The Flames also have a highly valued 2015 pick they have use in a trade.  All of which will not, and should not, be traded away because management recognizes the importance of building through the draft... and moreover, drafting the higher the better.

 

FF52, Carty, Wreckening:

 

It will be very interesting to see what the Flames do in the next few weeks because you guys are correct, there are potential for trades with cap ceiling teams.  There are quality 2nd/3rd liners who are overpaid that could become available and the Flames, with cap space, can absorb them easily.  (Unlikely to be star players available though).

 

So that said, do the Flames trade prospects and picks to get these players to win now?  Do the Flames trade away value contracts in Backlund and/or Glencross for basically the same players back except more expensive? 

 

If so, then I will eat my words.  It would be evidence the Flames mean to win right now during a rebuild.

 

If not, then Treliving can talk all he wants.  He's showing through empirical evidence that he wants to go into this season with a McDavid worthy roster. 

 

tmac70:

 

In regards to, "we are building not tanking", the Flames are not tanking per se.  They just aren't trying to win right now.

 

Management is responsible for putting the team together and if they put a team together who's process of rebuilding gets them a top 5 pick, then so be it.  As the roster stands today, it looks like a top 5 pick again.

 

Da4RealDeal:

 

Firstly, welcome to the boards.  I agree, the Flames will do what they do and then come trade deadline, make moves that would get them closer to the top pick.  By that time, they may be too high in the standings to catch #1 overall but that's fine.  Other than McDavid this year, there's Eichel, Barzal, and Hanofin who are all franchise altering talents.

 

At the end of the day, if the Flames don't make the playoffs, then I want them to move forward with key young pieces from the draft.  Even though there are no promises when drafting 18-year-olds, I still cheer for the Flames to have a draft advantage on draft day.  If the Flames don't make the playoffs and you don't want them to have the best on draft day, then that's your choice.  You can cheer for whatever you want.

 

No matter what, please don't cheer just to spite us.  Like, "BahaHaha, I can't wait to see Peeps face when we can't draft McDavid! LOL OMG hahahaa.."  Because as if the Flames aren't better moving forward with McDavid, Eichel, Barzal, and/or Hanofin.

 

robrob and Lucid:

 

Let's start scouting. 

[travel_dude]

Peeps, there is a big difference between recognizing the importance of developing through the draft and choosing to ice a non-competitive team to draft higher.  BT is addressing needs without putting us in a hole.  He could (maybe) have signed Niskanen by through max term and dollars, but that is risking on a player that had one good season.  Or he could have overpaid for a player like Vrbata, etc., etc....

 

What he has done is signed a goalie to provide league average goaltending at relief or starter capacity; signed a forward with goal scoring ability without overpaying; signed a defenseman to a bloated contract to reach the floor, even if injuries occur.

 

Many will assume that we will be no better and possibly worse this year.  BT may look at it and say that we have prospects coming in this year that may be big surprises.  At worse, he may still need to plug some holes, but at best may have more of a bottom 10 team instead of a bottom 3 team.

[Flyerfan52]

The Jets recognize  the value of building through the draft & seem to be doing fine reaching that objective with Scheifele @ 7, Trouba @ 9, Morrissey @ 13 & this year Ehlers @ 9.

@ the same time they realize that winning builds that atmosphere so add players they see as upgrades via any means possible without doing the free agent frenzy overpay.

The last 2 years they were eliminated numerically from the playoffs in the final week. To me that says you can build via the draft while remaining competitive.

They could have easily traded the few good players they inherited when TN bought the Thrashers & gone into full tank mode but would they really be more competitive having the players the Oilers drafted higher each of those years?

 

Who do you think will really end up with the better team? The 1 that has 3 picks taken 1/1 & 5 other top 10s in the last 9 years that found a gem @ 22 when they got Eberle? Or do they add another top to that collection? (I only mentioned their 1st pick each year but there were 3 more 1st rounders taken in those years. That's 12 high picks so if that formula worked they wouldn't be expected to pick top 5 again in 2015

[kehatch]

Peeps, there is a big difference between recognizing the importance of developing through the draft and choosing to ice a non-competitive team to draft higher. BT is addressing needs without putting us in a hole. He could (maybe) have signed Niskanen by through max term and dollars, but that is risking on a player that had one good season. Or he could have overpaid for a player like Vrbata, etc., etc....

What he has done is signed a goalie to provide league average goaltending at relief or starter capacity; signed a forward with goal scoring ability without overpaying; signed a defenseman to a bloated contract to reach the floor, even if injuries occur.

Many will assume that we will be no better and possibly worse this year. BT may look at it and say that we have prospects coming in this year that may be big surprises. At worse, he may still need to plug some holes, but at best may have more of a bottom 10 team instead of a bottom 3 team.

The top says it for me. "The rebuilding team isn't trading their future for short term players" does not equal "Must mean they are trying to lose for a higher draft pick."

The Flames are doing everything they can reasonably do to ice a competitive team. They have shown nothing but a drive to win on the ice. Suggesting the Flames are intentionally tanking is way off base IMO.

[FeyWest]

What we are doing is playing out the seasons as we start to stockpile assets, build a winning hard working culture, creating a proper developmental environment.

Letting the "Natural Order" of things fall as it may, as we work to compete and make playing the Flames a living hell I had a longer more in-depth post and if requested I'll put it in but I think this covers it in a "Cole's Notes" kinda way hahah.

It's interesting to see the differing opinions on what the Flames are doing VS. True TankNation I don't think we are tanking at all for the record, but I like the meaningful discussions!

[The_People1]

The Jets recognize  the value of building through the draft & seem to be doing fine reaching that objective with Scheifele @ 7, Trouba @ 9, Morrissey @ 13 & this year Ehlers @ 9.

@ the same time they realize that winning builds that atmosphere so add players they see as upgrades via any means possible without doing the free agent frenzy overpay.

The last 2 years they were eliminated numerically from the playoffs in the final week. To me that says you can build via the draft while remaining competitive.

They could have easily traded the few good players they inherited when TN bought the Thrashers & gone into full tank mode but would they really be more competitive having the players the Oilers drafted higher each of those years?

 

Who do you think will really end up with the better team? The 1 that has 3 picks taken 1/1 & 5 other top 10s in the last 9 years that found a gem @ 22 when they got Eberle? Or do they add another top to that collection? (I only mentioned their 1st pick each year but there were 3 more 1st rounders taken in those years. That's 12 high picks so if that formula worked they wouldn't be expected to pick top 5 again in 2015

 

I want the Flames to come out of a rebuild and win the Cup, not just be an average team.  So with all due respect FF, you might want to use an example of a team winning the Cup without having to draft in the top 2 or 3 in order to do so.  That said, I think you will find there to be more teams who had to draft high before they won the Cup compared to those who did not. 

 

ie. Kane, Doughty, Staal, Malkin, etc, even Seguin and the Bruins.

 

It is true that drafting in the top 3 or 4 alone doesn't win the Cup. ie. Oilers and Islanders.  So let's get one thing straight, no one is saying drafting in the top 3 or 4 is enough.  Please don't inaccurately categorize us.  We still recognize the need to do everything else right.

 

Please also acknowledge this fact:  Teams who have won the Cup recently have all drafted very high at one point.

 

Many will assume that we will be no better and possibly worse this year.  BT may look at it and say that we have prospects coming in this year that may be big surprises.  At worse, he may still need to plug some holes, but at best may have more of a bottom 10 team instead of a bottom 3 team.

The top says it for me. "The rebuilding team isn't trading their future for short term players" does not equal "Must mean they are trying to lose for a higher draft pick."

The Flames are doing everything they can reasonably do to ice a competitive team. They have shown nothing but a drive to win on the ice. Suggesting the Flames are intentionally tanking is way off base IMO.

It's interesting to see the differing opinions on what the Flames are doing VS. True TankNation I don't think we are tanking at all for the record, but I like the meaningful discussions!

 

What more is there to tank when the Flames are already so close to the bottom?  By virtue of staying relatively the same, the Flames have made the statement they are not trying to win this upcoming season.

 

The Flames open the season at home and then go on a six game road trip.  They can conceivably start the season 1-6-0.  It's unlikely they will be 6-1-0 or something crazy like that.

 

It will be interesting to see what management does after that.  Do they make moves to win more games or do they let "Natural Order" run its course?

[travel_dude]

I want the Flames to come out of a rebuild and win the Cup, not just be an average team.  So with all due respect FF, you might want to use an example of a team winning the Cup without having to draft in the top 2 or 3 in order to do so.  That said, I think you will find there to be more teams who had to draft high before they won the Cup compared to those who did not. 

 

ie. Kane, Doughty, Staal, Malkin, etc, even Seguin and the Bruins.

 

It is true that drafting in the top 3 or 4 alone doesn't win the Cup. ie. Oilers and Islanders.  So let's get one thing straight, no one is saying drafting in the top 3 or 4 is enough.  Please don't inaccurately categorize us.  We still recognize the need to do everything else right.

 

Please also acknowledge this fact:  Teams who have won the Cup recent have all drafted very high at one point.

 

 

What more is there to tank when the Flames are already so close to the bottom?  By virtue to staying relatively the same, the Flames have made the statement they are not trying to win this upcoming season.

 

The Flames open the season at home and then go on a six game road trip.  They can conceivably start the season 1-6-0.  It's unlikely they will be 6-1-0 or something crazy like that.

 

It will be interesting to see what management does after that.  Do they make moves to win more games or do they let "Natural Order" run its course?

I don't know what magical fixes were available that takes them from a "no better or worse" team to a "competetive" team in your eyes.

Would signing Cammi for 5 year and Mayson Raymond + Niskanen have met that criteria?  Or does solidifying the net, replacing Butler with a bigger/meaner player, and signing a fast skating forward who can score do it?  All of these moves were meant to keep us out of cap heck in the future, allow us to use some of the prospects deemed ready for the NHL, and give us flexibility to add key players in the short or long term.  That and try to re-kindle the magic that we had the end of last season when most of the team was healthy and had gelled.  If we somehow have that same type of results spaced out over the season, then we aren't basement dwellers, more likely ground floor. 

 

I can't say that trades will be a result of a poor (or awesome) start; they may be timing based (cap-strapped teams, teams with surplus or needs), perceived need or surplus by the Flames, or injury related.  Does any trade or lack of trade signal we are intentially trying to stay the same or worse?

[phoenix66]

I want the Flames to come out of a rebuild and win the Cup, not just be an average team. So with all due respect FF, you might want to use an example of a team winning the Cup without having to draft in the top 2 or 3 in order to do so. That said, I think you will find there to be more teams who had to draft high before they won the Cup compared to those who did not.

ie. Kane, Doughty, Staal, Malkin, etc, even Seguin and the Bruins.

It is true that drafting in the top 3 or 4 alone doesn't win the Cup. ie. Oilers and Islanders. So let's get one thing straight, no one is saying drafting in the top 3 or 4 is enough. Please don't inaccurately categorize us. We still recognize the need to do everything else right.

Please also acknowledge this fact: Teams who have won the Cup recent have all drafted very high at one point.

What more is there to tank when the Flames are already so close to the bottom? By virtue to staying relatively the same, the Flames have made the statement they are not trying to win this upcoming season.

The Flames open the season at home and then go on a six game road trip. They can conceivably start the season 1-6-0. It's unlikely they will be 6-1-0 or something crazy like that.

It will be interesting to see what management does after that. Do they make moves to win more games or do they let "Natural Order" run its course?

I think there is a big difference between tanking and development. The flames are showing a dedication to developing their players over being in "win now" mode.you are correct that Chicago is a great example they came out of their rebuild as a powerhouse.

Lets assume for a second we go 6-0 on that road trip. Do you change things? Send Johnny to the farm? Overplay your D? Bring up the Alaska goalie for a look see?

Of course not, you ride the wave and improve on weak areas.

If we go 0-6 then you make adjustments. You work to win with what you have.

Im all in favor of sacrificing some standings for development but not the other way around.our position allowed Monahan to get 1st line minutes last year. He likely wouldn't have received that on a top 6 team.that doesn't mean we tanked.if Bennett and/or Johnny go lights out in camp I expect them to make the team, not get sent down because"its best for them"

The hot goalie should play, etc.

this all breeds a winning culture even if the Ws aren't there. Nobody is pulling a Feaster and guaranteeing playoff hockey but they are making it clear to everybody that is the goal.none of this Oilers "its ok we're rebuilding" mentality.

if we do all this and pick top 3 im ok with that..im also ok with picking 10-16.

[tmac70]

Burke, Hartley and Trevling made a point of saying " despite all the positives they still failed in the end, as the goal is to make the playoffs" 

 

People can paint this any way they want, we may not have a competitive club YET, but we are tanking by any means at all.