Goaltending

[travel_dude]

I don't quite get the hate for Hiller. He played a huge roll in getting us into the playoffs and then he played very well and won us the first round. One bad game against Anaheim and everyone is ready to send him packing. Meanwhile Ramo didn't fare much better against Anaheim and everyone is ready to anoint him the starter and a possible Vezina candidate (sorry travel_dude I couldn't resist).

I understand that Hiller isn't a star number 1 goalie but he is the closest thing we have to a number 1.

In my mind Ramo is a good solid back up goalie, but of the three (Hiller, Ramo, Ortio) Ramo makes me the most neverous when he is in the net. He is consistently out of position, if he could fix this part of his game then I could see him really stepping up, but at 30 years old I am not sure we will see much improvement from him.

My guess is that if Ortio steals the job from Ramo, Ramo is headed over seas. I can't see anyone wanting Ramo's contract.

 

I'm not just going on Hiller time in CGY; he faded in the playoffs in orevious year.  He lost his spot on the Ducks due to his fading stats.  He will be turning 34 this year, so he is not likely to improve.  The other two goalies have not reached their peak.  They may never reach it.  But, let's face it, Hiller and Ramo are only signed for this season.  If one of them steps up this year, they get an extension.

[jjgallow]

I don't quite get the hate for Hiller. He played a huge roll in getting us into the playoffs and then he played very well and won us the first round. One bad game against Anaheim and everyone is ready to send him packing. Meanwhile Ramo didn't fare much better against Anaheim and everyone is ready to anoint him the starter and a possible Vezina candidate (sorry travel_dude I couldn't resist).

I understand that Hiller isn't a star number 1 goalie but he is the closest thing we have to a number 1.

In my mind Ramo is a good solid back up goalie, but of the three (Hiller, Ramo, Ortio) Ramo makes me the most neverous when he is in the net. He is consistently out of position, if he could fix this part of his game then I could see him really stepping up, but at 30 years old I am not sure we will see much improvement from him.

My guess is that if Ortio steals the job from Ramo, Ramo is headed over seas. I can't see anyone wanting Ramo's contract.

 

Without knowing exactly which comments you were referring to, I don't feel that there is any hate for Hiller.  It is simply the reverse-engineering over your exact thought process.

 

Just like you say, if Ortio steals the job, Ramo would go overseas.  Meaning the Flames get nothing for him.

 

That is the nuts and bolts of why people suggest trading Hiller.  If we let Hiller go, we will most likely get something back in a trade.  If we let Ramo go, we probably get nothing.  Ultimately Hiller and Ramo are both here as stop-gaps until one of our prospects can take over the reigns.  And that's no knock on them, it's just succession planning.   When people suggest trading Hiller, it's not because they don't like him.  It's because they think he's more valuable than Ramo.

[s4xon]

I'm not just going on Hiller time in CGY; he faded in the playoffs in orevious year.  He lost his spot on the Ducks due to his fading stats.  He will be turning 34 this year, so he is not likely to improve.  The other two goalies have not reached their peak.  They may never reach it.  But, let's face it, Hiller and Ramo are only signed for this season.  If one of them steps up this year, they get an extension.

 

I agree, HIller has been a great stop gap, but I fail to see how he's a part of this team within 2 years.  His signing was mere positioning for the future to allow some of the kids to develop.  Now that we see Gillies signed and in the system, and Ortio on a one way, I'd suspect Hiller is going to be the one shipped out, regardless of the fact that his contract is bigger than Ramo's.

 

All of this still hinges on record and play of course.  Realistically, if the Flames top 6 D can remain healthy, the 'tending duties should be much easier this season in comparison, and the D last year were already pretty damn good.

[robrob1974]

Who knows, if we didn't sign Hiller last year, Ramo and Ortio could've been a good tandem last year.

I felt like Ramo was coming on strong the previous year and could've handled about 2/3's of the games. Or just under that is. But then, I think management thought that Ortio should play more consistently.

[travel_dude]

Who knows, if we didn't sign Hiller last year, Ramo and Ortio could've been a good tandem last year.

I felt like Ramo was coming on strong the previous year and could've handled about 2/3's of the games. Or just under that is. But then, I think management thought that Ortio should play more consistently.

 

I think they needed Hiller because we only had Ramo left from the three goalies of 2013/14.  He had an injury, so they probably didn't want to take the chance.

 

The way Ortio has played, I think you can't take the chance waiving him - now or ever.  $600k is too attractive to pass up.  The OIlers would probably pounce on it, and get rid of Scribbles.  Best case, Ortio becomes their #1.  Worse case, they are in another lotto pick.

[jjgallow]

Who knows, if we didn't sign Hiller last year, Ramo and Ortio could've been a good tandem last year.

I felt like Ramo was coming on strong the previous year and could've handled about 2/3's of the games. Or just under that is. But then, I think management thought that Ortio should play more consistently.

 

 

I really, really wish even now that this had happened last year, even though I don't expect many to agree.   I think we would be going into this year with more solid goaltending, and maybe Connor McDavid too.   Hiller was great, but he "enabled" the Flames to ignore their goaltender development obligations for yet another year.

[Jessemadnote39]

How do i skip ahead on an Iphone?

I really, really wish even now that this had happened last year, even though I don't expect many to agree. I think we would be going into this year with more solid goaltending, and maybe Connor McDavid too. Hiller was great, but he "enabled" the Flames to ignore their goaltender development obligations for yet another year.

Sorry technical difficulty. You can't be serious in the above quote. You'd give up two rounds of playoff hockey and an amazing development year for our top young guys? There's a team up north that follows a strategy you'd love.

Development is all about patience, not rushing prospects so you can lose and get more prospects. Ortio also got injured for the last quarter of the season. Who's our backup then?

[The_People1]

I feel Ortio is NHL ready.  The only question left is which veteran to keep to shelter Ortio.

 

Did they sign Ramo this summer only to waive him now?  I doubt it.  I think Hiller has to go and it's not a bad decision.

[jjgallow]

 You'd give up two rounds of playoff hockey and an amazing development year for our top young guys? There's a team up north that follows a strategy you'd love.

Development is all about patience, not rushing prospects so you can lose and get more prospects. Ortio also got injured for the last quarter of the season. Who's our backup then?

 

I would, and I have good reasons for it, all of which would derail this thread.  Just saying, that's what I would have done.  I'll leave it at that.  But trust me, that would still be extremely far from what the Oilers did.

 

To answer your question regarding backups...backups are just that. backups.  They are not difficult to acquire.  I also would have done a few other things differently...Brossoit and Gillies would have both been in play.

[robrob1974]

How do i skip ahead on an Iphone?

Sorry technical difficulty. You can't be serious in the above quote. You'd give up two rounds of playoff hockey and an amazing development year for our top young guys? There's a team up north that follows a strategy you'd love.

Development is all about patience, not rushing prospects so you can lose and get more prospects. Ortio also got injured for the last quarter of the season. Who's our backup then?

 

I am thinking the Flames could have still made the playoffs without Hiller last year. I know it's a perception that he solidified the goaltending, but I think that Ramo was ready for a bit more and probably could have played a bit more. We could have still had an amazing development year. 

 

But that's past, and I am hoping that they choose the right tandem for this year. 

[mhatata]

I would want to go with Ramo and Ortio but I think they will end with Hiller and Ortio..Why?

 

Hiller has shown that he can win a game after playing a really bad one and has the experience to give us a "go to" in net in case Ortio plays bad.  If we keep both Ramo and Ortio and they both have a tough time playing that many games, we will have no option in net. Although it seems obvious to keep the younger goalie (Ramo), I believe for Hiller's experience, he will be kept while Ortio is groomed further for a starter role.  I also think we would be able to shop Ramo a-lot easier than Hiller who we may have to keep a portion of his salary. 

[robrob1974]

Ramo has already proven he can play at least half of the games. Maybe he can even play more. He has never been given a back to back start after a loss, at least not that I can remember. So I don't even know if he can play after a bad game. 

 

Albeit, Ramo has had a bad game and still won and then stayed in to lose the next game. But that's when I'd give Ramo the rest, if he has an okay game and still wins. 

[conundrumed]

I am thinking the Flames could have still made the playoffs without Hiller last year. I know it's a perception that he solidified the goaltending, but I think that Ramo was ready for a bit more and probably could have played a bit more. We could have still had an amazing development year. 

 

But that's past, and I am hoping that they choose the right tandem for this year. 

Perception?

I wouldn't call it "solidified", I'd say stabilized. The year prior was rocky at best.

Is it just me, or has Hiller been demonized for a few years now?

I'm not into that bandwagon. I know his faults and like him as a goalie.

#1: he always protects the net first, never strays.

[travel_dude]

Perception?

I wouldn't call it "solidified", I'd say stabilized. The year prior was rocky at best.

Is it just me, or has Hiller been demonized for a few years now?

I'm not into that bandwagon. I know his faults and like him as a goalie.

#1: he always protects the net first, never strays.

His lack of mobility is his biggest downfall.  He will drop to his knees and stay there until the puck is out of the zone.  And he backs deep into the net when he does it.  What it does is open up the top part of the net,  

 

Say what you like about Ramo, but BT doesn't sign him to a rich extension just to waive him.  Sure, Hiller and Ramo have similar deals that expire the end of the year.  But Ramo was signed for a reason.  Maybe BT saw something in his last games he didn;t like. Maybe Hartley said he had more confidence in Ramo.  Who knows.

[The_People1]

It's not that we hate Hiller.  It's just that we like Ortio.

 

Hiller was fantastic against the Canucks in the playoffs but he also proved he cannot take the Flames deeper than Round 2.  Ramo was the go-to-guy in an elimination game, plus, a fresh new contract this summer.  I think that speaks of Hiller being gone.  This preseason was never about Hiller vs Ramo.  It was Hiller vs Ortio.  And Ortio has proved that he's NHL ready.

[MAC331]

It's not that we hate Hiller.  It's just that we like Ortio.

 

Hiller was fantastic against the Canucks in the playoffs but he also proved he cannot take the Flames deeper than Round 2.  Ramo was the go-to-guy in an elimination game, plus, a fresh new contract this summer.  I think that speaks of Hiller being gone.  This preseason was never about Hiller vs Ramo.  It was Hiller vs Ortio.  And Ortio has proved that he's NHL ready.

Anyone heard of any needs opening up from other teams ? TB was in the rumor mill earlier. I would go for a Ramo/Ortio combo.

[travel_dude]

It's not that we hate Hiller.  It's just that we like Ortio.

 

Hiller was fantastic against the Canucks in the playoffs but he also proved he cannot take the Flames deeper than Round 2.  Ramo was the go-to-guy in an elimination game, plus, a fresh new contract this summer.  I think that speaks of Hiller being gone.  This preseason was never about Hiller vs Ramo.  It was Hiller vs Ortio.  And Ortio has proved that he's NHL ready.

 

Hiller/Ramo will get the game Tuesday, while Ortio is slated for Thursday (according to Steinberg).  That is very telling, IMHO.  

Keeping Ortio that late implies that he will not be waived.  Too much risk (especially if he has another good game) to wait that long, as team will have a better idea of the goalies they have in camp.  A goalie making only $600k would be easy for most teams to fit in, even if they kept 3 goalies.

[The_People1]

Hiller/Ramo will get the game Tuesday, while Ortio is slated for Thursday (according to Steinberg).  That is very telling, IMHO.  

Keeping Ortio that late implies that he will not be waived.  Too much risk (especially if he has another good game) to wait that long, as team will have a better idea of the goalies they have in camp.  A goalie making only $600k would be easy for most teams to fit in, even if they kept 3 goalies.

 

Maybe the Flames just keep 3 goalies then...

[cccsberg]

I really, really wish even now that this had happened last year, even though I don't expect many to agree.   I think we would be going into this year with more solid goaltending, and maybe Connor McDavid too.   Hiller was great, but he "enabled" the Flames to ignore their goaltender development obligations for yet another year.

This is wrong on so many levels. Wow. Look, addressing their goaltender development obligations is EXACTLY what the Flames did last year. They give primo games/minutes to all three of their developing goalies and all had great seasons. In addition, they addressed their TEAM development issues by bringing in a short-term solution for the Flames which helped the team as a whole make a huge leap forward last year. This year they continue that trend with Ortio and whichever of the vets they keep. Next year they can keep Ortio and either bring up Gillies if he's ready, or re-sign a vet for another year.

The only issue is resigning Ramo when it appeared they could trade Hiller to SJS but that fell apart with their trade with Boston. So now we have to choose one of the vets to send down/trade, so what? I'm not seeing that hurt us in any way whatsoever.

[JTech780]

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/9/28/the-flames-should-keep-hiller

Here is a great article about why keeping Hiller makes the most sense.

[Wreckening]

Maybe the Flames just keep 3 goalies then...

Can't see it really. Something has to give. There's no real benefit to carrying three goalies. It means someone sits for extended times should one goalie start on a run.

 

Something will get done before the end of camp. Either a trade or demotion.

[DirtyDeeds]

It's not that we hate Hiller.  It's just that we like Ortio.

 

Hiller was fantastic against the Canucks in the playoffs but he also proved he cannot take the Flames deeper than Round 2.  Ramo was the go-to-guy in an elimination game, plus, a fresh new contract this summer.  I think that speaks of Hiller being gone.  This preseason was never about Hiller vs Ramo.  It was Hiller vs Ortio.  And Ortio has proved that he's NHL ready.

The last & only goalie who managed to get us past round one was Kipper in 2004. You have to go way back to find anyone who could do similar for us.

 

So maybe you are expecting/asking too much of Hiller?

He has been our best so far..

With the better D is it not fair to assume he will do better as well?

Maybe the Flames just keep 3 goalies then...

Hartley was very adamant about not running with 3 goalies last year. I see no reason for him to carry 3 goalies this year.

[travel_dude]

Can't see it really. Something has to give. There's no real benefit to carrying three goalies. It means someone sits for extended times should one goalie start on a run.

 

Something will get done before the end of camp. Either a trade or demotion.

 

I have my doubts they demote a goalie.  Stockton has 2, plus one on a tryout.  Gillies needs to play the majority this season, and we have a capable backup there.  No room for a demoted guy.

 

Hartley does not want to carry three goalies, but BT was less emphatic.  He said it was less than ideal.  I just can't see the situation being resolved in the next week.  There is not enough high-level competition in pre-season to decide on who to trade.  

 

One option would be to play Hiller and Ramo for couple 3 game stretches and keep up the one with the best record.  The loser gets sent down.  Ortio then gets his shot as a backup to begin with.  If he can win in a backup role, he gets a couple of 3 game stretches.

 

Pros:

Delays the decision to allow time to explore trade options

Gives you a better idea of who is ready

 

Cons:

Means you carry one less forward or d-man

Delays the decision until November

Practices become cluttered

[kehatch]

I agree with others that the Flames won't waive Ortio. Hartley hates carrying three goalies so that won't happen, at least long term.

That leaves Ramo vs Hiller. There isn't a right answer so the debate will be polarizing. But it will ultimately come down to who the Flames like the most. If they like them the same it will come down to who they can move for the most.

[conundrumed]

His lack of mobility is his biggest downfall.  He will drop to his knees and stay there until the puck is out of the zone.  And he backs deep into the net when he does it.  What it does is open up the top part of the net,  

 

Say what you like about Ramo, but BT doesn't sign him to a rich extension just to waive him.  Sure, Hiller and Ramo have similar deals that expire the end of the year.  But Ramo was signed for a reason.  Maybe BT saw something in his last games he didn;t like. Maybe Hartley said he had more confidence in Ramo.  Who knows.

I agree with your Hiller assessment, and like I said, I'm okay with that.

To assess Ramo and Ortio, it's almost like they're the same guy.

They both cheat off the short side too quickly and they both over-commit too frequently and get scrambling to the point that you wonder if they've lost site of the net.

My biggest concern is, if we are running 1A/1B, I'd prefer 2 goalies with different styles, not 2 of the same.

All 3 have their positives and negatives, it's fairly even.

For me honestly, I prefer Hiller be one of them.

He stabilized it last year, and I believe he's the one that will keep it stable.

Imho, Hartley yanked him from the Anaheim series in Game 1 and turned his back on him. I believe that was a mistake.

At the end of the day, it made zero difference.

Goalies can get angry from a poor start, human nature stuff. They can also come back like a house on fire, but he didn't get the 2nd chance, so who knows. Hartley decided the Ducks knew him too well methinks. I'd have given him a home start.

He got us to the playoffs against all odds, held the fort for the Van series, then Hartley decided not to play him based on 1 start.

Am I mistaken in thinking that?