Goaltending

[jjgallow]

Weird CHL rule.  Had to be signed before start of CHL season.  Ranked 9th in NA Goalies this year. 

 

What kinda rule is that?   

 

9th is just fine, goalies are voodoo.   One more lottery ticket.   And I feel he's been very good.

[conundrumed]

Ortio definitely had my pulse racing a few times last night.  I'm sure he'll get it sorted out though.

Wasn't that something? Almost scored on himself from a puck off the backwall, 12 ft out of a gaping cage to try to cover all options at once lol. He needs to find his zen for sure, panicky's an understatement.

[travel_dude]

What kinda rule is that?   

 

9th is just fine, goalies are voodoo.   One more lottery ticket.   And I feel he's been very good.

 

What I heard was that a player that passes through the draft can be claimed by a team prior to the CHL season start.  Has to be on an ATO, I believe.  When the Oilers tried to sign Vladdy Hockey, they used this option.  Had Vladdy played a full season, the contract would have been valid.

[Frankieboi]

Treliving has done some good things this offseason but I can't understand why he brought back Ramo as the third goalie with a one-way deal

[420since1974]

I believe that Ramo was signed only because management isn't yet completely sold on Orito as a NHL backup.

 

A real solid camp could potentially change their minds, but so far, Joni has still showed poor positioning & moments of panic during the Development & Training Camps.

 

Orito & Gillies could be a formidable pair in goal for Stockton in 2015/2016, and barring injuries, that's the scenario that I feel will happen.

[cross16]

What kinda rule is that?   

 

9th is just fine, goalies are voodoo.   One more lottery ticket.   And I feel he's been very good.

 

 

Any player who goes through the draft can be brought in on a try out basis and signed before they go back to junior, but if they go back to junior as an unsigned player then they have to enter the draft the following year. So basiclaly you have the summer window to bring guys in and potetnially sign if you want to use the contract spot and sign them. I think the league would frown upon UDFA 18/19 yeras olds shopping their services during a CHL season when they are "supposed" to be a student athelete.

 

Bit strange but its how the Kings signed Martin Jones and IIRC how the Flames signed Turner Elson. Just a way to expand the draft class IMO.

[robrob1974]

That's also part of scouting, knowing a player who slips through a draft. Maybe a player is on your list but lower than all of the ones on your list that you got to pick but wasn't taken by any other club.

How many times does it happen? It's allowable, so why not use it if you think a player can help the club?

[cross16]

That's also part of scouting, knowing a player who slips through a draft. Maybe a player is on your list but lower than all of the ones on your list that you got to pick but wasn't taken by any other club.

How many times does it happen? It's allowable, so why not use it if you think a player can help the club?

 

 

Off hand, i only know the two i listed above Elson and Martin Jones. It could happen more althought its not ovelry common I don't believe. Typically players go through a draft for a reason though. Could be the club question their offence, questions their skating, defensive game etc. I think more often then not clubs would rather see the player go and improve or show them they can do something rather then utilize a contract on them. It's great if you feel comfortable in the player as they do with Schneider but there is some risk to it too that I think negates teams doing this every year.

[The_People1]

Does anything think Ortio can clear waivers without being claimed?  Once claimed, he must stay in the NHL (i think).  It appears that virtually every team in the league has committed to their two goalies and a few teams even have 3 goalies to choose between just like the Flames do.

 

On that note, could Hiller or Ramo clear waivers without being claimed?

[cross16]

Does anything think Ortio can clear waivers without being claimed?  Once claimed, he must stay in the NHL (i think).  It appears that virtually every team in the league has committed to their two goalies and a few teams even have 3 goalies to choose between just like the Flames do.

 

On that note, could Hiller or Ramo clear waivers without being claimed?

 

He doesn't have to stay in the NHL its just that if a team claims him and wants to send him down you have to offer him to the original team first and not to mention it costs a contract so its unlikely teams claim players unless they want them at the NHL level.

 

I think he makes it through waviers. The only scenario i see where he would be claimed is he played as well in the preseason as he did during the NHL season last year and if he does that then I don't think he is exposed to waviers anyway. If he is just OK in the preseason, then he's just one of the countless other goalies out there that has flashed some potetnial without showing he can play at the NHL level and to your point i don't see alot of teams that could use that.

 

Baring a major injury, Hiller and Ramo woudl make it thorugh waivers. Not many teams will be interestd in taking that full cap hit for a guy that is unlikely to start for them. I think as the season progresses and injury crop up or poor play/goalies playiing below expecations, you may see a market develop for either HIller or Ramo. Flames would likely have to eat money on the deal though.

[robrob1974]

They were worried with Markstrom here in Vancouver last year as well. And he cleared whenever waived. I also wonder if the rest of the league are as high on Ortio as we are, because we as fans tend to have a bias toward our own players.

I don't know the perception of Ortio throughout the league, but it seems as though Markstrom was highly touted and still made it through.

I think Ortio clears.

[CheersMan]

With Ortio invited to the AHL all-star game last season, one could conclude that he is a top 4 AHL goalie.  He played excellent on that 4 game road trip thru CA last winter as well.  At this stage of the game I don’t see the Flames taking the risk of losing Ortio on waivers.  Particularly when one/or both of the other goalies do not have a future with the team beyond this season.  Ortio is here to stay.

[robrob1974]

I dunno, it is hard to gauge what the rest of the league thinks. The AHL and the NHL are different, as are other leagues in Europe. Just because you're great in one of the other leagues doesn't mean you are in the NHL.

I am not worried about Ortio getting picked up off waivers. I think there are still too many unknowns with him otherwise our own GM, who has eyes everywhere on Ortio, wouldn't have signed Ramo to another year. They'd have gone with Ortio.

Maybe they trade Hiller.

[Wreckening]

I think he clears. I also think he will be waived by the Flames barring a trade. As Peeps said, I think 99% of the teams are committed to their netminders and really would be taking a flier on Ortio.

[travel_dude]

I dunno, it is hard to gauge what the rest of the league thinks. The AHL and the NHL are different, as are other leagues in Europe. Just because you're great in one of the other leagues doesn't mean you are in the NHL.

I am not worried about Ortio getting picked up off waivers. I think there are still too many unknowns with him otherwise our own GM, who has eyes everywhere on Ortio, wouldn't have signed Ramo to another year. They'd have gone with Ortio.

Maybe they trade Hiller.

 

The risk is that between now and the start of the season there may be a team that has a goaltending injury and need to shore it up in a hurry.  A cap team could easily take a minor risk for a $600k contract.  Worse case scenario for them is that they use him and return him to us when they have to demote him or run with 3 goalies when all healthy.

[robrob1974]

Those are too many what ifs for me. It's not like he's a Cory Schneider. Not that Schneider went through this in Vancouver, but there's almost no buzz around the league regarding Ortio.

[robrob1974]

I hope Ortio has what it takes to be a starter, I really do. Can he be an elite starter though? Can he be good?

[jjgallow]

Ortio gets the shutout.  Against essentially a full NHL lineup.

 

He would absolutely get picked up on waivers in a heartbeat.

 

It isn't a question of IF some NHL teams will have question marks in net when the season starts.  Most of them will have question marks.  Some, will have gaping holes.  Everybody's committed to lots of goaltenders in the preseason.  That means nothing.

 

Hiller and Ramo would both clear waivers, imho.  But ideally, this will end in a trade.  Not waivers.

[travel_dude]

Ortio gets the shutout.  Against essentially a full NHL lineup.

 

He would absolutely get picked up on waivers in a heartbeat.

 

It isn't a question of IF some NHL teams will have question marks in net when the season starts.  Most of them will have question marks.  Some, will have gaping holes.  Everybody's committed to lots of goaltenders in the preseason.  That means nothing.

 

Hiller and Ramo would both clear waivers, imho.  But ideally, this will end in a trade.  Not waivers.

 

I think there is a reasonable risk that he gets claimed.  His contract is so low that a cap team could claim him and waive one of their goalies.  But the risk is somewhat mitigated by the fact that a team can only claim him if they make room first and have a contract available.  

 

If he is sent down tomorrow, he can't be claimed.  I think the limit is up to 12 days prior to game 1 of the season, which is tomorrow.

[cross16]

I think there is a reasonable risk that he gets claimed.  His contract is so low that a cap team could claim him and waive one of their goalies.  But the risk is somewhat mitigated by the fact that a team can only claim him if they make room first and have a contract available.  

 

If he is sent down tomorrow, he can't be claimed.  I think the limit is up to 12 days prior to game 1 of the season, which is tomorrow.

 

You are technically right, althought in Ortio's case I would suggest that's not an option. Not only is it a huge slap in the face to Ortio to send him down without really letting him compete for the job it takes away from he whole message of your franchise. how do you realistically tell your team you want them competing for jobs and earning jobs and then send down a player who is in a battle, coming off a great game all without letting him properly compete for the job?

 

I think people are way to concerend about waivers. The VAST majority of players put on waivers clear, and like I said the only reason I think the flames would even subject him to waivers if he plays poorly the rest of the preseason. if he plays well and beats out either Hiller or Ramo I don't thik this is an issue because then he'll be on this team.

[travel_dude]

You are technically right, althought in Ortio's case I would suggest that's not an option. Not only is it a huge slap in the face to Ortio to send him down without really letting him compete for the job it takes away from he whole message of your franchise. how do you realistically tell your team you want them competing for jobs and earning jobs and then send down a player who is in a battle, coming off a great game all without letting him properly compete for the job?

 

I think people are way to concerend about waivers. The VAST majority of players put on waivers clear, and like I said the only reason I think the flames would even subject him to waivers if he plays poorly the rest of the preseason. if he plays well and beats out either Hiller or Ramo I don't thik this is an issue because then he'll be on this team.

 

I did not say I think he should be sent down, just when there is zero risk.

 

I am one of those people that cares nothing about the salary of a player.  If he plays bad, that is different.  I would prefer that they send down Engelland, Bollig, and Raymond since we have as good or better options.  

 

• Nakladal (if still healthy) has shown to be both a good puck mover and has a wicked shot to boot.  He also plays well defensively.  
• Ferland and Byron are real competitors, and at the very least are better than Bollig.
• Granlund continues to show his sniping abilities, as well as his good 2-way play.

As far as goaltending goes, I would be open to an extended look at all three goalies.  The worst of the bunch gets dealt or demoted.

[Wreckening]

Ortio made a strong case for himself. It's good to see him having a good camp as opposed to last year.

 

Tonight Hiller gets the reigns for the entire game. It will be interesting to see how he does. If he too has a strong game it will make things very interesting in the crease. We have quite the conundrum facing this coaching staff. How long do you carry three goalies if all have good camps? I don't know if they will carry all 3 into the start of the season. This is when you want to set the tempo for the season and rotating 3 goalies really disrupts that.

 

After last night's performance Ortio has changed my mind on waiving him. He's starting the "golden hour" in which goalies come into their own. If he continues to shine I really can't see how you demote him, especially with the Always Earned, Never Given mantra. I'm also starting to question of who I would like to see being traded should Ortio make the team. On one hand I haven't been real impressed with Hiller dating back to last season. Sure he had a good run midway through the season but then really started to fade down the stretch. I had to ask myself is a goalie like Hiller going to net you the best gains in a trade? (Sorry for the pun). I then shifted my attention to Ramo. Like Hiller he had good runs but also had stinker nights between the pipes as well. The difference being Ramo came on at the end of the season, much like he did the season prior. He would definitely bring you a better return than Hiller in regards to a trade but you would be sacrificing the better goalie in my opinion.

 

So here's the 64 thousand dollar question. Who do you trade? The choice, my friends, is not so simple or clear cut. At the end of the day management has to make a tough decision.

[travel_dude]

Ortio made a strong case for himself. It's good to see him having a good camp as opposed to last year.

 

Tonight Hiller gets the reigns for the entire game. It will be interesting to see how he does. If he too has a strong game it will make things very interesting in the crease. We have quite the conundrum facing this coaching staff. How long do you carry three goalies if all have good camps? I don't know if they will carry all 3 into the start of the season. This is when you want to set the tempo for the season and rotating 3 goalies really disrupts that.

 

After last night's performance Ortio has changed my mind on waiving him. He's starting the "golden hour" in which goalies come into their own. If he continues to shine I really can't see how you demote him, especially with the Always Earned, Never Given mantra. I'm also starting to question of who I would like to see being traded should Ortio make the team. On one hand I haven't been real impressed with Hiller dating back to last season. Sure he had a good run midway through the season but then really started to fade down the stretch. I had to ask myself is a goalie like Hiller going to net you the best gains in a trade? (Sorry for the pun). I then shifted my attention to Ramo. Like Hiller he had good runs but also had stinker nights between the pipes as well. The difference being Ramo came on at the end of the season, much like he did the season prior. He would definitely bring you a better return than Hiller in regards to a trade but you would be sacrificing the better goalie in my opinion.

 

So here's the 64 thousand dollar question. Who do you trade? The choice, my friends, is not so simple or clear cut. At the end of the day management has to make a tough decision.

Ramo and Ortio remind me of Kipper, in that they start off just ok and get better as the season rolls along.  They both benefit from having runs in net, even if they lose one.  Hiller on the other hand, starts really well.  His best number were at the beginning of the season where he went on a tear.  He fades once he gets to a certain number of games (it seems).

 

To me, Hiller is a good regular season goalie.  Ramo seems to pick it up in time for the playoffs.

 

Hiller in a trade will get you a better return at TDL, assuming there are teams looking for experienced help for the playoffs.  I tend to believe that you would not regret trading Hiller, whereas Ramo could become a Vezna goalie.  I think we owe it to ourselves to see Ramo in the starter role, with Ortio as backup.  Maybe even 1a/1b. 

[The_People1]

Those are too many what ifs for me. It's not like he's a Cory Schneider. Not that Schneider went through this in Vancouver, but there's almost no buzz around the league regarding Ortio.

 

Except for Darryl Sutter who called Joni Ortio "the best goalie they have ever faced" last season when Ortio shut them out during his incredible winning streak (if I remember correctly).  Anyways, he's been noticed.  I don't think he will pass through waivers personally. 

[JTech780]

I don't quite get the hate for Hiller. He played a huge roll in getting us into the playoffs and then he played very well and won us the first round. One bad game against Anaheim and everyone is ready to send him packing. Meanwhile Ramo didn't fare much better against Anaheim and everyone is ready to anoint him the starter and a possible Vezina candidate (sorry travel_dude I couldn't resist).

I understand that Hiller isn't a star number 1 goalie but he is the closest thing we have to a number 1.

In my mind Ramo is a good solid back up goalie, but of the three (Hiller, Ramo, Ortio) Ramo makes me the most neverous when he is in the net. He is consistently out of position, if he could fix this part of his game then I could see him really stepping up, but at 30 years old I am not sure we will see much improvement from him.

My guess is that if Ortio steals the job from Ramo, Ramo is headed over seas. I can't see anyone wanting Ramo's contract.