Goaltending

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

IMHO we have a problem with our core that the supporting cast can't fix.    

 

Some of us pushed hard to trade Gio a while back....well that's pretty much a dead convo now (we wouldn't get much for him)

Pushed hard last offseason to trade Gaudreau ....  that may have sailed too, at least in terms of valuations at that time

 

That was seen as blowing the team up but it was actually an attempt to salvage what we had.    The more you delay the inevitable the harder it hits you when it arrives.

 

 

Well, recency bias seems to play a big part of perceived value.

Gio didn't go from Norris to crap.

He's slipped from last year's stats back to what he typically would produce.

0.5 p/gp is nothing to sneer at, and the value of those D-men is always high.

When he starts trending in the right direction, his value will come back up.

 

Same holds true for Gaudreau, if you consider this to be necessary.

 

Blowing up the team isn't the only way to win.  Identifying pieces that aren't helping that are just spending money is part of building a team.

So far, we are just being nice guys and paying people for trying.

Or for what we are expecting them to become.

 

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I guess it's a matter of perspective.  Some would say that we don't need more a of a bad thing lol,  

 

I would tend to agree with you, I do like Bennett and Lucic.   But with three really big stipulations:

 

1.   We'd want them on the RH side of the ice.  

2.  In the case of Lucic, we'd want a younger version.    Assuming the same age and stage as he's at, then to point 3:

3.   I replaced "need" with "want" because although it would help it wouldn't even move the needle on our chances of winning a cup.

 

IMHO we have a problem with our core that the supporting cast can't fix.    

 

Some of us pushed hard to trade Gio a while back....well that's pretty much a dead convo now (we wouldn't get much for him)

Pushed hard last offseason to trade Gaudreau ....  that may have sailed too, at least in terms of valuations at that time

 

That was seen as blowing the team up but it was actually an attempt to salvage what we had.    The more you delay the inevitable the harder it hits you when it arrives.

 

I do see a rebuild on the way, I do see making some trades where we don't get the return we deserve,

 

The one good thing about it, if it unfolds as it did in the past, is that we have a chance to do a proper rebuild this time, starting with acquiring elite young talent in net (literally perfect draft for it and Dustin Wolf isn't that bad of a start), followed by D.

 

 

 

I saw it when we were winning a lot of games. We got fooled by fancy stats. I didn’t see other teams make a hard effort at trying to stop the fancy stats, and a lot of the early goals looked too easy. When it looks too easy, for me it means, what will it look like when it gets hard? Can they find ways to score. And I would say, can the team score when Gaudreau isn’t pushing for points? I saw him get shut down in past years, so I saw that coming.
 

the answer was Ryan. Yes they scored, but again it was only one line doing the lifting. 

I also got so much flack when I would call Monahan out. What can he do away from the puck, or outside of the slot in the offensive zone? I really think Lindholm is the answer for C. But can Monahan produce without Lindholm? 

I think Gaudreau needs to change things up more often. Don’t count on him doing all of the zone entries. Have options. 
 

 

I won’t mind a build. But I think that this team still has trouble drafting the right players. We are drafting NHLers but are we drafting NHLers that can win the cup. 

[jjgallow]

 

Can we give Samuel Hlavaj a PTO?

[jjgallow]

Tyler Parsons showing some hope right now in ECHL.   If he keeps it up for 10 games IMHO, they should purge the disaster they have in the AHL and give him some minutes there.

 

Nick Schneider also doing ok.       Basically if you reverse the order of who the Flames gave a chance this year, the goalies given the least opportunity are doing the best sigh.

[conundrumed]

On 12/6/2019 at 11:52 AM, jjgallow said:

 

Can we give Samuel Hlavaj a PTO?

Honest question. Can you PTO an undrafted 18yo who is full time in jr?

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Tyler Parsons showing some hope right now in ECHL.   If he keeps it up for 10 games IMHO, they should purge the disaster they have in the AHL and give him some minutes there.

 

Nick Schneider also doing ok.       Basically if you reverse the order of who the Flames gave a chance this year, the goalies given the least opportunity are doing the best sigh.

Lesser league. No point in rushing G development. Damn you're hard on goalies. lol

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Tyler Parsons showing some hope right now in ECHL.   If he keeps it up for 10 games IMHO, they should purge the disaster they have in the AHL and give him some minutes there.

 

Nick Schneider also doing ok.       Basically if you reverse the order of who the Flames gave a chance this year, the goalies given the least opportunity are doing the best sigh.

 

If you mean the disaster of 10-1-1 season for Zagadulin, sure turf them both.

You won't be happy unless we draft "your" guy from somewhere in Europe.

Consider that the AHL team consists of one actual NHL capable D-man.

 

But Schneider must be a stud due to his one AHL game this year.

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Honest question. Can you PTO an undrafted 18yo who is full time in jr?

 

No. If a player doesn't get drafted they can sign with a team as an un-drafted free agent for the summer but once they go back to junior it's hands off. Need to draft them in the up coming draft and then if they go unpicked through 2 drafts you can sign them as UDFA. 

[jjgallow]

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

No. If a player doesn't get drafted they can sign with a team as an un-drafted free agent for the summer but once they go back to junior it's hands off. Need to draft them in the up coming draft and then if they go unpicked through 2 drafts you can sign them as UDFA. 

 

Thanks for explanation.  For situations like this would be nice to get a little collection of 7th round picks maybe.

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

No. If a player doesn't get drafted they can sign with a team as an un-drafted free agent for the summer but once they go back to junior it's hands off. Need to draft them in the up coming draft and then if they go unpicked through 2 drafts you can sign them as UDFA. 

Thanks cross. I was pretty sure it was a no, but 580 pages of CBA is hard to navigate. Signing someone's starter in jr made no sense to me.

jj, stop staring at stats of much lesser leagues. lol

And we signed Zagidulin and after 2 months you want to fire him back to the K. Imagine trying to sign another European with that kind of mindset.

You have 90 days to learn a new language, get used to a massive uptick in speed and shooting ability with new goalie coaches. They'll change your style, and you better transform in 60 days. lol

[jjgallow]

18 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Lesser league. No point in rushing G development. Damn you're hard on goalies. lol

 

Nah i'm hard on the Flames goalie development system.

 

I'm saying Parsons and Schneider deserve more minutes in better leagues.    

 

What the Flames are doing is hard on goalies.   

[jjgallow]

24 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you mean the disaster of 10-1-1 season for Zagadulin, sure turf them both.

You won't be happy unless we draft "your" guy from somewhere in Europe.

Consider that the AHL team consists of one actual NHL capable D-man.

 

But Schneider must be a stud due to his one AHL game this year.

 

Schneider has a good number of AHL games under his belt and performed better than anyone else in that group given his age of 21.

 

I think I have been pretty supportive of the Flames goalie prospects (not "my picks"), to the point, quite frankly, that I have some regret there.

 

Keep in mind the Flames acquired Schneider, acquired Ortio, acquired Parsons.  Not me, the Flames.  They're not "my guy".   I am actually trying to be supportive of them but the organization seems to have a 30 second attention span.

[jjgallow]

8 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Thanks cross. I was pretty sure it was a no, but 580 pages of CBA is hard to navigate. Signing someone's starter in jr made no sense to me.

jj, stop staring at stats of much lesser leagues. lol

And we signed Zagidulin and after 2 months you want to fire him back to the K. Imagine trying to sign another European with that kind of mindset.

You have 90 days to learn a new language, get used to a massive uptick in speed and shooting ability with new goalie coaches. They'll change your style, and you better transform in 60 days. lol

 

You are absolutely right, that can take 3-5 years to be quite honest.

 

And dude is nearly 25.

 

Flames already have far younger, acclimatized prospects out-performing him.   Again these are players the Flames signed and put their "faith" in.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, jjgallow said:

 

Schneider has a good number of AHL games under his belt and performed better than anyone else in that group given his age of 21.

 

I think I have been pretty supportive of the Flames goalie prospects (not "my picks"), to the point, quite frankly, that I have some regret there.

 

Keep in mind the Flames acquired Schneider, acquired Ortio, acquired Parsons.  Not me, the Flames.  They're not "my guy".   I am actually trying to be supportive of them but the organization seems to have a 30 second attention span.

 

Half of your posts in this thread are about how bad our current goalies are (meaning Flames property) and how godly upcoming or picks selected by other teams are.

 

[jjgallow]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Half of your posts in this thread are about how bad our current goalie development is (meaning Flames property) and how godly upcoming or picks selected by other teams are.

 

 

corrected that for you.   Look again, you can't tell me I haven't been supportive of our picks.  Actually you're the one making fun of them right now.

 

Other teams picks are turning out better.  I'm not sure if they're picking better, but they're definitely developing better.   Nobody else has their Parsons equivalent in the ECHL.

 

Parsons is actually Leading the ECHL in save percentage right now (more or less).    That is because no other NHL team is evidently this brutal with goalie development.

[conundrumed]

8 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

corrected that for you.   Look again, you can't tell me I haven't been supportive of our picks.  Actually you're the one making fun of them right now.

 

Other teams picks are turning out better.  I'm not sure if they're picking better, but they're definitely developing better.   Nobody else has their Parsons equivalent in the ECHL.

 

Parsons is actually Leading the ECHL in save percentage right now (more or less).    That is because no other NHL team is evidently this brutal with goalie development.

Have you read Parsons' story in the Athletic? A lot goes into development, not just the goaltending element.

Quote:

As soon as the Flames learned of Parsons’ troubles, they’d issued another plane ticket – “They were all in,” said stepdad Al Williams. “Not one person was mad” – and made it clear that they would provide the full spectrum of support.

Which they did. 

When Parsons finally made the trip to Calgary for the camp, he stayed off the ice. Productively, he began sitting down with mental health professionals.

“That’s when things started going in the right direction … it was my first step to getting better,” said Parsons, who turned 21 earlier this week. “Those problems can be eliminated like that” – he snapped his fingers – “and more people need to open up about it. If you’re feeling down in the dumps, talk to someone. I finally spoke up. I felt like I had a thousand pounds lifted off my shoulders.

“Recognizing it and kicking it in the butt right away is real good to do.” /end quote

 

His mom wouldn't let him get on the plane for camp.

So jj. You're all in on Parsons, but giving Zagidulin 2 months to adjust to an entirely different culture and style of play is enough?

[jjgallow]

31 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

His mom wouldn't let him get on the plane for camp.

So jj. You're all in on Parsons, but giving Zagidulin 2 months to adjust to an entirely different culture and style of play is enough?

 

The question isn't whether I'm all-in on Parsons.   It's whether the Flames are.   Let's not pretend demoting him to the ECHL and putting Zagidulin in his place is good for his mental health.   Flames saw that issue and wrote him off rather than help him and that's the truth.   

 

Again I agree with you on Zagidulin, 3 years minimum to adjust which is why the acquisition never made sense at his age.  It's hard enough trying to acclimatize 20 year olds.

 

Look the goaltending situation in the AHL is Bad, has been bad since this thread was created.   470 pages now.    I'm told I'm impatient.   How long should I wait....500 pages?  1000.... 2030?    Just saying, we all know it's a mess and I do appreciate that people on here like to support the team's decisions no matter how bad they are.

 

But seriously... they bury goaltending prospects and they get it wrong often.   You can't support their decisions without belittling their own prospects. 

[cross16]

Tyler Parsons is in the ECHL due to injury. He was out for 2 months with a groin injury so the Flames assigned him to the ECHL so they can better manage his starts. They are taking it one start at a time to see how the groin reacts and only recently (as in this last weekend) did they let him start games on back to back nights. 

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

The question isn't whether I'm all-in on Parsons.   It's whether the Flames are.   Let's not pretend demoting him to the ECHL and putting Zagidulin in his place is good for his mental health.   Flames saw that issue and wrote him off rather than help him and that's the truth.   

 

Again I agree with you on Zagidulin, 3 years minimum to adjust which is why the acquisition never made sense at his age.  It's hard enough trying to acclimatize 20 year olds.

 

Look the goaltending situation in the AHL is Bad, has been bad since this thread was created.   470 pages now.    I'm told I'm impatient.   How long should I wait....500 pages?  1000.... 2030?    Just saying, we all know it's a mess and I do appreciate that people on here like to support the team's decisions no matter how bad they are.

 

But seriously... they bury goaltending prospects and they get it wrong often.   You can't support their decisions without belittling their own prospects. 

Read the article. You think being in the EC, the A or the NHL caused it? Wow.

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

The question isn't whether I'm all-in on Parsons.   It's whether the Flames are.   Let's not pretend demoting him to the ECHL and putting Zagidulin in his place is good for his mental health.   Flames saw that issue and wrote him off rather than help him and that's the truth.   

 

Again I agree with you on Zagidulin, 3 years minimum to adjust which is why the acquisition never made sense at his age.  It's hard enough trying to acclimatize 20 year olds.

 

Look the goaltending situation in the AHL is Bad, has been bad since this thread was created.   470 pages now.    I'm told I'm impatient.   How long should I wait....500 pages?  1000.... 2030?    Just saying, we all know it's a mess and I do appreciate that people on here like to support the team's decisions no matter how bad they are.

 

But seriously... they bury goaltending prospects and they get it wrong often.   You can't support their decisions without belittling their own prospects. 

 

Right now there is one prospect doing well in the AHL and one in the ECHL.

Both are Flames property.

You always talk about signing free-agent goalies, but as soon as we do you crap on them and say they are old.

We're burying our (best) prospects because we chose a guy that is winning the majority of his starts and his backup (former top prospect).

The AHL team is a mess because we don't have Parsons and Schneider playing there. 

So you say.

 

Schneider (7-6-2 in ECHL) is barely 900 in the ECHL and Parsons has played 4 due to injury. I like that Parsons is starting to win games.

 

I don't think many would argue that guys like Elliott, Hiller, Smith, Ramo and Berra were great choices to back the team up to.

The drafted choices by the Flames haven't lived up to be starters, yet.

The best chance is with guys like Rittich, Zagidulin, and Parsons.

One drafted guy, so I know you won't be happy.

 

 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Read the article. You think being in the EC, the A or the NHL caused it? Wow.

 

I didn't say that at all though.  And I'm not sure how it could be interpreted that way.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

The question isn't whether I'm all-in on Parsons.   It's whether the Flames are.   Let's not pretend demoting him to the ECHL and putting Zagidulin in his place is good for his mental health.   Flames saw that issue and wrote him off rather than help him and that's the truth.  

Put the shovel down. How would you like like us to interpret the bolded?

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't think many would argue that guys like Elliott, Hiller, Smith, Ramo and Berra were great choices to back the team up to.

 

If we look back in this thread we'll see that nearly everyone here did in fact support these choices.   Maybe people wouldn't argue now, but they sure did then.

 

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

The best chance is with guys like Rittich, Zagidulin, and Parsons.

 

Only one of those three players is anywhere close to a projection being Stanley Cup quality (Parsons) and they are buried in the ECHL.

 

Rittich and Zagidulin are mid-20's vets at or near their prime, showing glimpses of promise the exact same way that Berra, Ramo, Turek, many others did.   We are having the exact same arguements we had with Ramo, Berra, etc.    There is no difference.   That's all I'm really pointing out.

 

IMHO, I would say our best chance is Dustin Wolf, with an outside chance on Parsons, Schneider.

[jjgallow]

1 minute ago, conundrumed said:

Put the shovel down. How would you like like us to interpret the bolded?

 

In the post-tense that it is stated.    The ECHL happened after his issues.   Thus did not cause them.   That's also the tense it was written in.  My statement is written to describe the ECHL being after his issues.

 

I'm just saying the Flames response was to boot him to the ECHL and sign Zagidulin.   Not exactly the brightest strategy for getting your prospect who you should support out of a mental rut.

[conundrumed]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

In the post-tense that it is stated.    The ECHL happened after his issues.   Thus did not cause them.   That's also the tense it was written in.  My statement is written to describe the ECHL being after his issues.

 

I'm just saying the Flames response was to boot him to the ECHL and sign Zagidulin.   Not exactly the brightest strategy for getting your prospect who you should support out of a mental rut.

Quit while you're behind. Read the article. You are so off base here that it's laughable. He's manic depressive. His mom stopped short of the airport and said, "nope, you're not going to camp. Call your people, I don't care". So he did, and came clean.

In his own words, "No one in the org was mad, they got me the help that I needed".

So again jj, quit while you're behind.