Goaltending

jjgallow · November 27, 2017

On 11/20/2017 at 0:36 PM, Flyerfan52 said:

Just an idea that popped into my head.

In Montreal Lindgren has been the best of the 4 used. Price is close to a return so they will run those 2 for as long as possible. My ? is what happens when Montoya is cleared to play. Lindgren is waiver exempt but a win hungry team isn't going to send down the only goalie performing.

I still see Montoya as the ideal backup so should that situation arise I certainly hope BT looks @ the cost to acquire.

So, my version of a solution to this example would be to acquire Lindgren (the younger of these goalies). The price would be similar and so would the performance. Plus, you know...future.

So we could debate that.

But I'll just be honest, cause you already know, I'm a touch more extreme than that too. While Lindren would be a better long term acquisition in terms of age, he's not impressed me enough either. I think, while he's good, similar (in terms of age and promise) could be had for free (worth consideration). And to provide an example, pretty sure we could acquire this guy almost anytime if we wanted (open to correction, but he's not alone):

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=105929

or...http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=101860

or... http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=73457

or http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=91267 (not free but likely cheap)

So,

I think the goaltender position is important, and I think we want the very Best, most promising prospects available, and I think we should acquire them and if need be, pay for them. I'm not opposed to any of the above, as long as they're free or cheap. But my Christmas wish list would be the likes of:

Eric Comrie, Thatcher Demko, Juuse Saros, Malcolm Subban, Ville Husso

OR... OR...

We could just drop all that nonsense for my current favorite: the Finnish Veini Vehlivainen

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=176290

Veini Vehlivainen: NO NHL CONTRACT, NOT NHL DRAFTED

Currently the Best goalie in Finland, of any age or rank.

20 Years old with a .939 Save Percentage in SM Liiga, 6'0

What does this mean?

*Kipper achieved a similar .936 in the same league, but Two years later (at 22 years of age)

*Juuse Sarros, at a similar age, achieved .929 in the same league. Not as good but still almost unheard of.

*Ville Husso, a top Blues prospect, achieved .927 (not quite as good) at 20 as well

*Joni Ortio had a .908 at the same age in that league, and I was excited.

*No Other Modern Finnish comparables that I can find, positive or negative, due to how exceptional this is.

Arguably the Best goalie in the World Juniors last year.

So I'm not really familiar with the lying, cheating, and stealing contractually required to obtain someone like this. But there's gotta be a way.

Flyerfan52 · November 27, 2017

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

So, my version of a solution to this example would be to acquire Lindgren (the younger of these goalies). The price would be similar and so would the performance. Plus, you know...future.

So we could debate that.

But I'll just be honest, cause you already know, I'm a touch more extreme than that too. While Lindren would be a better long term acquisition in terms of age, he's not impressed me enough either. I think, while he's good, similar (in terms of age and promise) could be had for free (worth consideration). And to provide an example, pretty sure we could acquire this guy almost anytime if we wanted (open to correction, but he's not alone): http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=105929

or...http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=101860 or... http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=73457

or http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=91267 (not free but likely cheap)

So,

I think the goaltender position is important, and I think we want the very Best, most promising prospects available, and I think we should acquire them and if need be, pay for them. I'm not opposed to any of the above, as long as they're free or cheap. But the Christmas wish list would be the likes of:

Eric Comrie, Thatcher Demko, Juuse Saros, Max Domi, Ville Husso

OR... OR...

We could just drop all that nonsense for my current favorite: the Finnish Veini Vehlivainen http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=176290

Veini Vehlivainen: NO NHL CONTRACT, NOT NHL DRAFTED

Currently the Best goalie in Finland, of any age or rank.

20 Years old with a .939 Save Percentage in SM Liiga, 6'0

*What does this mean?

*Kipper achieved a similar .936 in the same league, but Two years later (at 22 years of age)

*Juuse Sarros, at a similar age, achieved .929 in the same league. Not as good but still almost unheard of.

*Ville Husso, a top Blues prospect, achieved .927 (not quite as good) at 20 as well

*Joni Ortio had a .908 at the same age in that league, and I was excited.

*No Other Modern Finnish comparables that I can find, positive or negative, due to how exceptional this is.

Arguably the Best goalie in the World Juniors last year.

So I'm not really familiar with the lying, cheating, and stealing contractually required to obtain someone like this. But there's gotta be a way.

I hope Santa brings you your wish.

DirtyDeeds · November 27, 2017

23 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

We could just drop all that nonsense for my current favorite: the Finnish Veini Vehlivainen

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=176290

Veini Vehlivainen: NO NHL CONTRACT, NOT NHL DRAFTED

Currently the Best goalie in Finland, of any age or rank.



20 Years old with a .939 Save Percentage in SM Liiga, 6'0

What does this mean?

*Kipper achieved a similar .936 in the same league, but Two years later (at 22 years of age)

*Juuse Sarros, at a similar age, achieved .929 in the same league. Not as good but still almost unheard of.

   *Ville Husso, a top Blues prospect, achieved .927 (not quite as good) at 20 as well

   *Joni Ortio had a .908 at the same age in that league, and I was excited.

   *No Other Modern Finnish comparables that I can find, positive or negative, due to how exceptional this is.

Arguably the Best goalie in the World Juniors last year.

So I'm not really familiar with the lying, cheating, and stealing contractually required to obtain someone like this. But there's gotta be a way.

I don't think they can even talk to him while under contract to that league until after the season. I know they can't talk to their own prospects so don't see it any different.

jjgallow · November 27, 2017

Just now, DirtyDeeds said:

I don't think they can even talk to him while under contract to that league until after the season. I know they can't talk to their own prospects so don't see it any different.

Language barrier?

DirtyDeeds · November 27, 2017

Just now, jjgallow said:

Language barrier?

lol.. no agreement between leagues....

jjgallow · November 27, 2017

Encouraging. Need more of this from Tyler Parsons.

http://calgarysun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/calgary-flames/flames-goaltending-prospect-parsons-putting-up-sparkling-numbers-in-echl

Heartbreaker · November 27, 2017

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Encouraging. Need more of this from Tyler Parsons.

For what it's worth, I think Tyler Parsons is the future of the Flames in goal. I've been thinking that since they drafted him.

Love.

travel_dude · November 27, 2017

10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

Encouraging. Need more of this from Tyler Parsons.

http://calgarysun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/calgary-flames/flames-goaltending-prospect-parsons-putting-up-sparkling-numbers-in-echl

Maybe they need to see what he is at the AHL level for awhile.

jjgallow · November 27, 2017

On 2016-05-23 at 1:14 PM, phoenix66 said:

I can totally see it ..TO already has the top prize and their goalie cupboard is more bare than ours.. but Im ok with that , I actually want the Finn Veini Vehvilainen.. call me bias , but the Finns are a Goalie factory . and the last few high end Swedes have not really impressed me .

I think we may even be able to use one of our later 2nds to get him

On 2017-02-05 at 3:29 PM, jjgallow said:

VEINI VEHVILÄINEN

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=176290

How do we steal this kid? Late round draft pick, signing, or training camp invite?

So this isn't my first time bringing him up, nor was I the first to on this thread.

As aluded to earlier his 3 year contract signed in May of 2016 with SM Liiga makes him hard to acquire now. But someone like this probably should have been a primary target for the Flames as a 6th round pick in one of the last two drafts. Strange we don't go for stuff like this.

I suppose he's not elligible in the 2018 draft?

cross16 · November 27, 2017

37 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

I suppose he's not elligible in the 2018 draft?

No, he's a free agent

But if he has a 3 year contract signed in 2016 he won't be eligible to play in the NHL until 2019. Unless he has an NHL out in his contract, which is unlikely i'd say.

JTech780 · November 27, 2017

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

No, he's a free agent

But if he has a 3 year contract signed in 2016 he won't be eligible to play in the NHL until 2019. Unless he has an NHL out in his contract, which is unlikely i'd say.

Even if we did sign him where would we play him, it's great to load up on goalie prospects, but we have to have somewhere for them to play.

Next year we have Smith, McDonald, Parsons and Schneider all under contract and needing to play pro games. We also Gillies who is an RFA and will be getting a contract. Rittich could be a question mark, he is an RFA, but he has been sensational at the AHL and looked good in his 1st start, if he continues to play well I would assume he would get another contract next year.

That is 6 goalies for 6 pro spots, where would we put another goalie?

DirtyDeeds · November 27, 2017

2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Even if we did sign him where would we play him, it's great to load up on goalie prospects, but we have to have somewhere for them to play.

Next year we have Smith, McDonald, Parsons and Schneider all under contract and needing to play pro games. We also Gillies who is an RFA and will be getting a contract. Rittich could be a question mark, he is an RFA, but he has been sensational at the AHL and looked good in his 1st start, if he continues to play well I would assume he would get another contract next year.

That is 6 goalies for 6 pro spots, where would we put another goalie?

Loan 1 extra goalie to another AHL team.

JTech780 · November 27, 2017

2 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Loan 1 extra goalie to another AHL team.

That works great if you don't care about that goalies development, but if you loan a goalie to another team you don't get much say in his coaching or development. Also it would have to be a goalie that another team wants on their AHL team, guys like McDonald or Schneider aren't likely to be taken on by another AHL team as they can't make our AHL team. I wouldn't want Gillies or Parsons playing somewhere else where you couldn't get to work with them every day.

jjgallow · November 28, 2017

11 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Even if we did sign him where would we play him, it's great to load up on goalie prospects, but we have to have somewhere for them to play.

Next year we have Smith, McDonald, Parsons and Schneider all under contract and needing to play pro games. We also Gillies who is an RFA and will be getting a contract. Rittich could be a question mark, he is an RFA, but he has been sensational at the AHL and looked good in his 1st start, if he continues to play well I would assume he would get another contract next year.

That is 6 goalies for 6 pro spots, where would we put another goalie?

We really need to be honest with ourselves at what we really have, imho.

Smith: Will be 36 years old to start next season. We have him, but in what capacity is never a sure thing with a goalie over 35.

*This time last year we were all 100% sure we were sticking with Elliot. Smith is an older, more expensive version of that.

McDonald: He's 21 years old and can barely hold an ECHL roster spot. Like, Big struggles.

Not sure how the contract works, but we'll likely release him next season....or bury him (we already have).

Tyler Parsons: Check. Should be in the AHL by next season if not this. Struggled early but doing better now.

Schneider: He's 20 years old and is struggling in the WCL.

Maybe not 100% his fault but he's of an age where he should look out of place there. And he does...in the wrong way.

He will be buried/released. Not seeing anything AHL material here.

Rittich: Point taken. I'm still skeptical but he's forced his way into the picture.

Gillies: He needs to pick it up this season or he's going to have one foot out the door.

So: We have 4: Smith, Parsons, Rittich, Gillies. And of the 4, none look certain at this time. Perhaps, if anyone, Parsons.

We have a maximum of 4 players possibly worth filling our 6 pro spots with. There is little to no point holding on to false hopes with the rest.

It is also highly unlikely that all 4 of those players will look like sure bets by the end of the season.

My guess is we'll finish the season with 3 goalies that have a future here.

So.....drafting him would have been better in the sense that he could develop overseas and use up one of our spots. Plus, hey, we're not great at it here anyway.

But the bottom line is that room could clearly be made. Trades can happen too. And if your goalie doesn't have trade value, then..hey...you know what to do.

We should be Maximizing the pro spots that we have by developing the best possible talent in them. Not prohibiting ourselves from acquiring that talent due to a perceived clog.

JMHO.

travel_dude · November 28, 2017

9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

We really need to be honest with ourselves at what we really have, imho.

Smith: Will be 36 years old to start next season.     We have him, but in what capacity is never a sure thing with a goalie over 35.

                             *This time last year we were all 100% sure we were sticking with Elliot. Smith is an older, more expensive version of that.

McDonald:    He's 21 years old and can barely hold an ECHL roster spot.   Like, Big struggles.

                          Not sure how the contract works, but we'll likely release him next season....or bury him (we already have).

Tyler Parsons:   Check.   Should be in the AHL by next season if not this. Struggled early but doing better now.

Schneider:   He's 20 years old and is struggling in the WCL.

                      Maybe not 100% his fault but he's of an age where he should look out of place there. And he does...in the wrong way.

                      He will be buried/released.   Not seeing anything AHL material here.

Rittich:   Point taken.    I'm still skeptical but he's forced his way into the picture.

Gillies:   He needs to pick it up this season or he's going to have one foot out the door.

So:    We have 4:      Smith, Parsons, Rittich, Gillies.      And of the 4, none look certain at this time.   Perhaps, if anyone, Parsons.

             We have a maximum of 4 players possibly worth filling our 6 pro spots with.   There is little to no point holding on to false hopes with the rest.

                        It is also highly unlikely that all 4 of those players will look like sure bets by the end of the season.

                       My guess is we'll finish the season with 3 goalies that have a future here.

So.....drafting him would have been better in the sense that he could develop overseas and use up one of our spots.   Plus, hey, we're not great at it here anyway.

But the bottom line is that room could clearly be made.     Trades can happen too.   And if your goalie doesn't have trade value, then..hey...you know what to do.

We should be Maximizing the pro spots that we have by developing the best possible talent in them.    Not prohibiting ourselves from acquiring that talent due to a perceived clog.

JMHO.

Giving up on young goalies makes no sense. That's how team miss out on future starters. Not all of them start their careers as stars. I'm not big on MacDonals, but that doesn't mean Gillies or Schneider are flops.

JTech780 · November 28, 2017

9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

We really need to be honest with ourselves at what we really have, imho.

Smith: Will be 36 years old to start next season.     We have him, but in what capacity is never a sure thing with a goalie over 35.

                             *This time last year we were all 100% sure we were sticking with Elliot. Smith is an older, more expensive version of that.

McDonald:    He's 21 years old and can barely hold an ECHL roster spot.   Like, Big struggles.

                          Not sure how the contract works, but we'll likely release him next season....or bury him (we already have).

Tyler Parsons:   Check.   Should be in the AHL by next season if not this. Struggled early but doing better now.

Schneider:   He's 20 years old and is struggling in the WCL.

                      Maybe not 100% his fault but he's of an age where he should look out of place there. And he does...in the wrong way.

                      He will be buried/released.   Not seeing anything AHL material here.

Rittich:   Point taken.    I'm still skeptical but he's forced his way into the picture.

Gillies:   He needs to pick it up this season or he's going to have one foot out the door.

So:    We have 4:      Smith, Parsons, Rittich, Gillies.      And of the 4, none look certain at this time.   Perhaps, if anyone, Parsons.

             We have a maximum of 4 players possibly worth filling our 6 pro spots with.   There is little to no point holding on to false hopes with the rest.

                        It is also highly unlikely that all 4 of those players will look like sure bets by the end of the season.

                       My guess is we'll finish the season with 3 goalies that have a future here.

So.....drafting him would have been better in the sense that he could develop overseas and use up one of our spots.   Plus, hey, we're not great at it here anyway.

But the bottom line is that room could clearly be made.     Trades can happen too.   And if your goalie doesn't have trade value, then..hey...you know what to do.

We should be Maximizing the pro spots that we have by developing the best possible talent in them.    Not prohibiting ourselves from acquiring that talent due to a perceived clog.

JMHO.

McDonald and Schneider have contracts next year so we can't just release them, that's not how it works. If either goalie decides that they have a better chance at developing or making more money over seas they can ask the team to release them and if the team agrees they are put on waivers to mutually cancel the contract. I don't see that happening for either player. So we have to play them.

It is possible that Smith takes a step back next year, but nothing he has shown this year suggests that his play is all of a sudden going to drop off a cliff.

I have always been skeptical of how good Gillies actually is, but this team has put a lot of development time in on this goalie and I can't see them giving up on him yet. Most goalies aren't ready for full time NHL duty till around 25 anyways so he has time.

jjgallow · November 28, 2017

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

McDonald and Schneider have contracts next year so we can't just release them, that's not how it works.

Maybe not exactly how it works, but, well, like you described below, same thing to me: (I'm not a contract semantics guy...)

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

If either goalie decides that they have a better chance at developing or making more money over seas they can ask the team to release them and if the team agrees they are put on waivers to mutually cancel the contract.

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

I don't see that happening for either player. So we have to play them.

I do. Or, they'll be loaned out further. Whatever happens they won't be taking up key spots unless their play changes dramatically.

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

It is possible that Smith takes a step back next year, but nothing he has shown this year suggests that his play is all of a sudden going to drop off a cliff.

Nothing about Elliot's play this time last year did either. What we know is that every goalie's play who has ever played, Does in fact drop off a cliff sometime around this age. Not some...all. Only a very, very, few don't digress at this age, and even those (Tim Thomas types) do eventually drop off a cliff as well.

You are assuming he'll even make it past this season. Like we did with Elliot last year.

You might be right but this is far from a certainty.

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

I have always been skeptical of how good Gillies actually is, but this team has put a lot of development time in on this goalie and I can't see them giving up on him yet. Most goalies aren't ready for full time NHL duty till around 25 anyways so he has time.

I agree with you please don't misunderstand what is an overall risk assessment of our situation. I'm not giving up on him either but we can't be hanging all our hopes on him.

jjgallow · November 28, 2017

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Giving up on young goalies makes no sense.

ok

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

I'm not big on MacDonals,

wait a minute... I feel like there's been a change of flow of the conversation. But I agree with you, I was never big on him either. Put it this way, just because a particular human being is young does not mean the Flames need to invest in them as our future starter. There has to be a few more qualifiers.

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

but that doesn't mean Gillies or Schneider are flops.

Gillies, I agree. Schneider......I lump him with McDonald. It could change but he would have to show something dramatically different.

Put it this way: Having a goalie depth does not simply mean having lots of young goalies that have no trade value.

Having goalie depth implies having top prospects that other NHL teams would actually want to have.

For us that's Parsons. Maybe Gillies. And that's it.

travel_dude · November 28, 2017

Parson, Gillies, Rittich, Schneider.

The reason why I said that MacDonald was a right-off was that I haven't seen anything from him at any level that implies he's anything at the pro level.

Schneider is too early to call, but is trending in the wrong direction.

I would prefer that we have two possible starters battling it out in the AHL (Parson and Gillies) and that they stay there until they are ready, maybe another one to three years. Rittich could be a reliable backup this year and ready for a heavier workload next year. Smith may have a lighter workload if that is the case.

JTech780 · November 29, 2017

10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

Maybe not exactly how it works, but, well, like you described below, same thing to me: (I'm not a contract semantics guy...)

I do. Or, they'll be loaned out further. Whatever happens they won't be taking up key spots unless their play changes dramatically.

Nothing about Elliot's play this time last year did either. What we know is that every goalie's play who has ever played, Does in fact drop off a cliff sometime around this age. Not some...all. Only a very, very, few don't digress at this age, and even those (Tim Thomas types) do eventually drop off a cliff as well.

You are assuming he'll even make it past this season. Like we did with Elliot last year.

You might be right but this is far from a certainty.

You can't just loan a player out, another team has to be willing to take him.

I thought there was a real good chance that Elliott was going to struggle when he got here, I was hopeful he wouldn't, but there was a ton of warning signs.

jjgallow · November 29, 2017

2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

You can't just loan a player out, another team has to be willing to take him.

If that becomes a problem for us then that pretty much says it all

JTech780 · November 29, 2017

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

If that becomes a problem for us then that pretty much says it all

Not really, other teams are trying to develop their own goalies, so why would they want our goalies to take spots away from their goalies?

JTech780 · November 29, 2017

On 11/27/2017 at 11:05 AM, cross16 said:

No, he's a free agent

But if he has a 3 year contract signed in 2016 he won't be eligible to play in the NHL until 2019. Unless he has an NHL out in his contract, which is unlikely i'd say.

I could be wrong, but I believe that the max age for Europeans to be drafted is 21 where as it's 20 for North American's, that would make Vehvilainen eligible for the draft. The question then would become, how long do you retain his rights before you have to sign him or lose him as a UFA? If you only have a year to sign him and he is already under contract during that year without an out clause, it really isn't worth wasting a draft pick on him.

cross16 · November 29, 2017

I'm not saying saying this will happen to Gilles, but I think Malcolm Subban is a great example of why it's tough to judge and evaluate goalies. His own team said he was done and the consensus was his AHL results "weren't good enough" and on paper they appeared that way. Looks pretty good at the NHL level now...

Let things play out and you never know what some can do with an opportunity.

robrob74 · November 30, 2017

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

I'm not saying saying this will happen to Gilles, but I think Malcolm Subban is a great example of why it's tough to judge and evaluate goalies. His own team said he was done and the consensus was his AHL results "weren't good enough" and on paper they appeared that way. Looks pretty good at the NHL level now...

Let things play out and you never know what some can do with an opportunity.

Sometimes the fact the play in the NHL is crisper than the AHL or lower leagues help certain players, and probably goalies.

In beer league i suck! But when I play on a team with good structure and fundamentals, I am so much better.

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