Goaltending

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm not saying we are , but I definitely say we can.

 

 

I think if this year's playoffs have shown us anything its that the league has more parity now than ever. When you see the Preds in the final and Ottawa on the door step you are going to have a hard time convincing me that the Flames have no realistic shot at it next year. Will take some skilful moves on Treliving and the team's part but it's not out of the question. League is wide open right now. 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm not saying we are , but I definitely say we can.

The 16th seed just got in ..  the OILERS were a game 7 away from a good shot at it

I like our chances against the Preds, not saying we'd win ,(I dont think anybody is beating Rinne anytime soon.. the guy is on another planet right now ) but we've always stacked up well against them.

 

The Oilers were not that close to a good shot at the cup.  They managed to get a good opponent for the 1st round.  Their goalie was on a run and got them as far as they could go.  They are still a piece of time away from contending.   

[phoenix66]

Just now, travel_dude said:

 

The Oilers were not that close to a good shot at the cup.  They managed to get a good opponent for the 1st round.  Their goalie was on a run and got them as far as they could go.  They are still a piece of time away from contending.   

true enough.. of the 3 teams remaining ..what is the #1 reason they got this far ?  Goaltending ..of the rest , when the goaltending faltered ..so did they 

If the Ducks still had Anderson to fall back on , their story may have been different

 

and with better management , that team should have been scary good a long time ago.. the biggest problem was the culture..losing was OK...  direct quote from Kevin Lowe.. we're a rebuilding team , we're not concerned with the wins right now 

Even Feaster was smart enough to say from the start , that losing was not OK

[cross16]

12 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The Oilers were not that close to a good shot at the cup.  They managed to get a good opponent for the 1st round.  Their goalie was on a run and got them as far as they could go.  They are still a piece of time away from contending.   

 

The Oilers were a collapse and a terrible call away from being up 3-2 with 2 games to go and lost game 7 by 1 goal. If that isn't very close then boy do the Flames have a ton of work to do. 

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm not saying we are , but I definitely say we can.

The 16th seed just got in ..  the OILERS were a game 7 away from a good shot at it

I like our chances against the Preds, not saying we'd win ,(I dont think anybody is beating Rinne anytime soon.. the guy is on another planet right now ) but we've always stacked up well against them.

 

The Oilers played the game for years of "we're rebuilding ..its ok!"..not us.   BT said himself, the bar is raised next year .. just making the playoffs is no longer acceptable.

It starts with him to ensure the pieces are in place to allow that possibility .. the possibility of failure in net due to a gamble , could likely cost him his job 

Maybe the unspoken goal isn't the cup..but going deep is.. which only makes your team that much more experienced for the next run

 

now , does he have other areas to address too?.. of course he does..and I'm sure he will.. but that doesn't change the fact that at least one reason we lost in 4 games was goaltending . So its on the list to be fixed

Definitely goaltending improvement is on the list but BT has also said if we didn't have BE and CJ do what they did we are not in the playoffs. If MAF provides us no better goaltending than Elliott why not take a progressive path for a longer success. Teamwise I think we are on the right path and BT has eluded to our best improvements coming from within which I agree with to a degree. Maturity and experience is essential to an success.

I said this previously that this may be is most important offseason because he needs to get this goaltending right this time. Complimentary partners for the 3 core defensemen we have is required but we know the majority of production is coming from the 3 we have now. Upfront we have a lot of good forwards that know what the are doing, we need a few more threats and finishers.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

The Oilers were a collapse and a terrible call away from being up 3-2 with 2 games to go and lost game 7 by 1 goal. If that isn't very close then boy do the Flames have a ton of work to do. 

 

The first line said it all.  They faced a mediocre team in the Sharks.  Had they matched against someone else due to different seeding (CHI, STL, NSH) in the first round, we might have seen a much different result.  

 

They played well against the Ducks, which is something we can't say.  Do I think the Ducks were a good playoff team?  Not really.  The managed to win two series on the back of iffy calls, cheating, and occasional good goaltending.  They didn't give up in games, so I give them that.

[phoenix66]

56 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Definitely goaltending improvement is on the list but BT has also said if we didn't have BE and CJ do what they did we are not in the playoffs. If MAF provides us no better goaltending than Elliott why not take a progressive path for a longer success. Teamwise I think we are on the right path and BT has eluded to our best improvements coming from within which I agree with to a degree. Maturity and experience is essential to an success.

I said this previously that this may be is most important offseason because he needs to get this goaltending right this time. Complimentary partners for the 3 core defensemen we have is required but we know the majority of production is coming from the 3 we have now. Upfront we have a lot of good forwards that know what the are doing, we need a few more threats and finishers.

this is where we differ..he is a definite upgrade 

but at the end of the day BT is gonna do what hes gonna do , we have obviously no say in it..and I trust his vision ..I'm just saying thats where I think he's looking 

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, phoenix66 said:

this is where we differ..he is a definite upgrade 

but at the end of the day BT is gonna do what hes gonna do , we have obviously no say in it..and I trust his vision ..I'm just saying thats where I think he's looking 

 

What is the definite part?  His playioff record?  Or his regular season record?

His regular season was worse.  Both would have a bounceback this year...maybe...

[phoenix66]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

What is the definite part?  His playioff record?  Or his regular season record?

His regular season was worse.  Both would have a bounceback this year...maybe...

If you can't see that MAF has had a more distinguished career than Elliot , I dont know where to start..

established #1?

winning record against almost every NHL team? (except Ottawa..go figure)

2 stanley cup rings?

Solid playoff stats?

[MAC331]

Just now, phoenix66 said:

If you can't see that MAF has had a more distinguished career than Elliot , I dont know where to start..

established #1?

winning record against almost every NHL team? (except Ottawa..go figure)

2 stanley cup rings?

Solid playoff stats?

Quit looking backwards and start addressing where he is now in his career. Even if he is marginally better than Elliott do you pay 3M more for him ? I don't think so.

[phoenix66]

15 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Quit looking backwards and start addressing where he is now in his career. Even if he is marginally better than Elliott do you pay 3M more for him ? I don't think so.

ok ..he basically single handedly got them to the 3rd round..Elliot played a large role in getting swept in the 1st

stats wise they had the same regular season except Fleury played more and had more wins

Elliot is 77% from high danger traffic..MAF is 81%

 

you also have to take the human factor into acct.. he came into this season knowing full well hes been demoted and will be moved by June.. I dont think its a coincidence he and Bishop both had off years for that very reason.

Elliot on the other hand was given a ball and didnt run with it 

 

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

ok ..he basically single handedly got them to the 3rd round..Elliot played a large role in getting swept in the 1st

stats wise they had the same regular season except Fleury played more and had more wins

Elliot is 77% from high danger traffic..MAF is 81%

 

 

Regular season:

MAF 38gp (34 starts) 18 wins 10 losses 7 OTL - 3.02 GAA .909 SA%

Elliott 49gp (46 starts) 26 wins 18 losses 3 OTL - 2.55 GAA .910 SA%

 

Playoffs:

MAF had the following games that were or could have been losses:

At CLB (win) - 4 GA .892 SA%

At CLB (loss) - 5 GA .853 SA%

Vs WSH (loss) - 3 GA .909 SA%

At WSH (loss) - 4 GA .875 SA%

Vs WSH (loss) - 5 GA .808 SA%

At OTT (loss) - 4 GA (on 9 shots) .556

 

Not sure how you figure that MAF had more regular season wins.  For the playoff, I pointed out 6 games that he was a non-factor in winning their series.  Those GA look familiar, don't they? 

[phoenix66]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Regular season:

MAF 38gp (34 starts) 18 wins 10 losses 7 OTL - 3.02 GAA .909 SA%

Elliott 49gp (46 starts) 26 wins 18 losses 3 OTL - 2.55 GAA .910 SA%

 

Playoffs:

MAF had the following games that were or could have been losses:

At CLB (win) - 4 GA .892 SA%

At CLB (loss) - 5 GA .853 SA%

Vs WSH (loss) - 3 GA .909 SA%

At WSH (loss) - 4 GA .875 SA%

Vs WSH (loss) - 5 GA .808 SA%

At OTT (loss) - 4 GA (on 9 shots) .556

 

Not sure how you figure that MAF had more regular season wins.  For the playoff, I pointed out 6 games that he was a non-factor in winning their series.  Those GA look familiar, don't they? 

that's my bad, I read them in reverse, but in terms of playoffs , until that last game he was the leading Conn Smythe candidate for a reason 

The both were increased in Playoff  HD chances, but amazingly Elliot allowed the Low danger goals.. 99%(2/201) for MAF..83% (7/42)for Elliot.. whos letting the softies in ?  Sounds like MAF made them earn it 

[travel_dude]

Just now, phoenix66 said:

that's my bad, I read them in reverse, but in terms of playoffs , until that last game he was the leading Conn Smythe candidate for a reason 

The both were increased in Playoff  HD chances, but amazingly Elliot allowed the Low danger goals.. 99%(2/201) for MAF..83% (7/42)for Elliot.. whos letting the softies in ?  Sounds like MAF made them earn it 

 

I would argue that the Pengies were a better team in front of MAF, and he still had those results.  

The Flames with MAF against the Ducks?  Anybody's guess.  We were not just bad in nets.  We let them get shots away that deflected off defenders, got 2nd chances on rebounds, shots of the faceoff, etc.  And our forwards could not contain any players in the D-zone.  

[Flyerfan52]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

No i'm saying for what I would be willing to pay for Grubauer the Capitals would be better off leaving him for the expansion draft or probably just keeping him for depth. 

Cory Schneider had 32 more games & was 3 years older NJ when traded the 9th OA (Bo Havat) for him.

I'm not saying trade our 16th OA for him but I'd start the offer with next years 2nd & a good prospect.

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I would argue that the Pengies were a better team in front of MAF, and he still had those results.  

 

 

Actually due to injuries the Penguins have really struggled defensively in these playoffs. They are a bottom 5 team in shots against and scoring chances against and have been the 9th worst in high danger chances against. 

 

Fleury really did carry them through the first 2 rounds. IMO he is the single biggest reason they beat Wsh. WSH outplayed them but MAF was much better than Holtby. 

[cross16]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Cory Schneider had 32 more games & was 3 years older NJ when traded the 9th OA (Bo Havat) for him.

I'm not saying trade our 16th OA for him but I'd start the offer with next years 2nd & a good prospect.

 

Was also a much more highly regarded goalie. He had relegated Luongo to backup duty he was playing so well. Remember that was the trade deadline Luongo wanted out because the Nucks were playing Schneider more. The infamous "my contract sucks deadline". 

 

Was also a 2 time all-star when he was dealt. 

[CheersMan]

BT is a bargain hunter.  It’s no secret he has a couple of vacancies between the pipes. Some teams are looking at his vacancies and wondering if they can recoup an asset (anything) from it.  The next best time for BT to make a deal for a #1 GT’er might be the day before teams are required to submit their list of unprotected players for the ED which I think is June 17?  Unless BT has a specific goalie in mind, I think he needs to wait till June 17 to see what shakes loose at bargain price.  Some teams may be willing to settle for little in return rather than lose a quality GT’er for nothing.  I’m thinking a middle round draft pick or a 3-4th line forward as trade.  That’s a deal I could see BT waiting to make.  If nothing shakes loose on June 17 he still has the entire summer to figure it out.   

[travel_dude]

34 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

BT is a bargain hunter.  It’s no secret he has a couple of vacancies between the pipes. Some teams are looking at his vacancies and wondering if they can recoup an asset (anything) from it.  The next best time for BT to make a deal for a #1 GT’er might be the day before teams are required to submit their list of unprotected players for the ED which I think is June 17?  Unless BT has a specific goalie in mind, I think he needs to wait till June 17 to see what shakes loose at bargain price.  Some teams may be willing to settle for little in return rather than lose a quality GT’er for nothing.  I’m thinking a middle round draft pick or a 3-4th line forward as trade.  That’s a deal I could see BT waiting to make.  If nothing shakes loose on June 17 he still has the entire summer to figure it out.   

 

Sure, he can play chicken with teams needing to deal.  I think it's highly likely that BT has one or two goalies on his must-have list.  He's got to have dialog with the GM's that have the guys he's interested in, otherwise they may panic and sell to another team for a bargain.  

 

Waiting till the summer is not a great idea.  They may be a surplus of "okay" goalies available, but he probably would have to talk to Vegas about one they picked.  Last summer he waited till the draft to make the deal, while he had immediate assets (2016 picks).  He was trying to get Bishop and that fell through one way or the other.  He ended up at the draft with his 2nd choice.

 

Having fewer picks this year is a bit of a stumbling point.  He may generate more interest in 2018 picks for teams not thrilled with this draft.  

 

I think by the time the draft roll around, BT will have his starter.  The backup/fallback plan will get picked up in FA or via a minor trade.  One of the two will be an experienced starter.  The other will be a guy ready to be a starter.  Just the way I think it's looking.

 

Here are my guesses at combos, since I love guessing:

 

Grubauer/Mason

Raanta/Mason

 

Other choices out there, but this is what I think it end up being and it sets us up until Gillies or Parsons proves they are NHL goalies.  Not re-signing Elliott saves us a 3rd in 2018.  

[phoenix66]

10 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sure, he can play chicken with teams needing to deal.  I think it's highly likely that BT has one or two goalies on his must-have list.  He's got to have dialog with the GM's that have the guys he's interested in, otherwise they may panic and sell to another team for a bargain.  

 

Waiting till the summer is not a great idea.  They may be a surplus of "okay" goalies available, but he probably would have to talk to Vegas about one they picked.  Last summer he waited till the draft to make the deal, while he had immediate assets (2016 picks).  He was trying to get Bishop and that fell through one way or the other.  He ended up at the draft with his 2nd choice.

 

Having fewer picks this year is a bit of a stumbling point.  He may generate more interest in 2018 picks for teams not thrilled with this draft.  

 

I think by the time the draft roll around, BT will have his starter.  The backup/fallback plan will get picked up in FA or via a minor trade.  One of the two will be an experienced starter.  The other will be a guy ready to be a starter.  Just the way I think it's looking.

 

Here are my guesses at combos, since I love guessing:

 

Grubauer/Mason

Raanta/Mason

 

Other choices out there, but this is what I think it end up being and it sets us up until Gillies or Parsons proves they are NHL goalies.  Not re-signing Elliott saves us a 3rd in 2018.  

oh agreed.. the reason we keep hearing BT is on this guy or that guy.. is because he's in on EVERYBODY. Pretty sure I read once that not a week goes by that he doesn't talk to every GM at least once .

A big deal was made about how close we were to Bishop because we got permission to talk to his agent.. but we also had the same talk with Elliot and his agent .Obviously one of his MO's

He already has a pulse on what each option will take ..and what his priority is 

 

at this point I'm done speculating ,   all i can probably safely say is MAF is the head domino .. as soon as he gets moved (wherever he goes ) the rest will fall shortly thereafter ... 

[Flyerfan52]

11 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Sure, he can play chicken with teams needing to deal.  I think it's highly likely that BT has one or two goalies on his must-have list.  He's got to have dialog with the GM's that have the guys he's interested in, otherwise they may panic and sell to another team for a bargain.  

 

Waiting till the summer is not a great idea.  They may be a surplus of "okay" goalies available, but he probably would have to talk to Vegas about one they picked.  Last summer he waited till the draft to make the deal, while he had immediate assets (2016 picks).  He was trying to get Bishop and that fell through one way or the other.  He ended up at the draft with his 2nd choice.

 

Having fewer picks this year is a bit of a stumbling point.  He may generate more interest in 2018 picks for teams not thrilled with this draft.  

 

I think by the time the draft roll around, BT will have his starter.  The backup/fallback plan will get picked up in FA or via a minor trade.  One of the two will be an experienced starter.  The other will be a guy ready to be a starter.  Just the way I think it's looking.

 

Here are my guesses at combos, since I love guessing:

 

Grubauer/Mason

Raanta/Mason

 

Other choices out there, but this is what I think it end up being and it sets us up until Gillies or Parsons proves they are NHL goalies.  Not re-signing Elliott saves us a 3rd in 2018.  

I agree with the bolded. That's dang near all of it.

 

I like those combos but have a gut feeling Hex is just waiting for the ED to be over to re-sign Mason (if LV doesn't take him). I've read scuttlebutt about that on Flyers sites.

In that case I'm starting to lean towards signing Bernier as that fallback plan. Like Mason & Elliott when he's hot he's red hot but when he's cold he can stink the place out. I'd rather have Mason but Bernier would be my 2nd choice as of now if we go the UFA route (& I believe we will).

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I agree with the bolded. That's dang near all of it.

 

I like those combos but have a gut feeling Hex is just waiting for the ED to be over to re-sign Mason (if LV doesn't take him). I've read scuttlebutt about that on Flyers sites.

In that case I'm starting to lean towards signing Bernier as that fallback plan. Like Mason & Elliott when he's hot he's red hot but when he's cold he can stink the place out. I'd rather have Mason but Bernier would be my 2nd choice as of now if we go the UFA route (& I believe we will).

i think lots of teams are waiting for that same reason on a lot of players.. like Versteeg with us Im sure is one as well.

Depending who the starter is , I do like Bernier as a fallback..just as you mentioned you never know who youre gonna get .. and only 1 game of playoff starts worries me too, hard to get a gauge on what he can do there.. especially when he only faced 18 shots

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

i think lots of teams are waiting for that same reason on a lot of players.. like Versteeg with us Im sure is one as well.

Depending who the starter is , I do like Bernier as a fallback..just as you mentioned you never know who youre gonna get .. and only 1 game of playoff starts worries me too, hard to get a gauge on what he can do there.. especially when he only faced 18 shots

 

The tale of two Berniers is like the tale of two Elliotts.  The Toronto Bernier or the Anaheim regular season Bernier.  The win streak Elliott or the Flames playoff Elliott.  

 

Personally, I felt that Bernier played better when their defense was much more structured during the regular season.  He gave up a lot against Nashville, but that's as much breakdowns as inferior play.  Bottom line is that their starter could have been the difference in the series, but he was injured.  Relying on a backup in the playoffs in a close series is just enough of a downgrade to decide it.

 

I prefer that we get a solid guy to mentor the new starter.  The new starter will determine how many games he can play.   

[cross16]

Not that stats are everything but I find this chart very telling, especially if we want to argue that Elliott is the best fall back. Looking at the chart you'll see that Elliott actually did not have that tough of a job, by comparison, this season and supports the fact that the Flames generally actually played well in front of him (unlike Johnson). Also Grabauer had some of he easiest workload around so again i'm becoming very cautious with the idea he can be a starter. More I look into it, the less i'm convinced. 

MAF also continues to be underrated by most prole here. 

 

also I think Mike Smith should be put into the discussion. yes I know he is old but the fact that he can turn out the numbers he does with the workload he does is impressive. Lots to suggest that he could be an above avg starter here based on how he performs in Pheonix. 

[phoenix66]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The tale of two Berniers is like the tale of two Elliotts.  The Toronto Bernier or the Anaheim regular season Bernier.  The win streak Elliott or the Flames playoff Elliott.  

 

Personally, I felt that Bernier played better when their defense was much more structured during the regular season.  He gave up a lot against Nashville, but that's as much breakdowns as inferior play.  Bottom line is that their starter could have been the difference in the series, but he was injured.  Relying on a backup in the playoffs in a close series is just enough of a downgrade to decide it.

 

I prefer that we get a solid guy to mentor the new starter.  The new starter will determine how many games he can play.   

yup..like I mentioned before , what would have happened if Anaheim didnt jump the gun and trade Anderson last year .. or even for that matter, what about if St Louis had kept Elliot one more year ...both those series could have been affected 

That one does still baffle me to a degree.. St Louis had the perfect situation.. 2 studs in a tandem, one goes RFA one UFA same time.. protect Allen, trade Elliots rights this year.. im sure the return wouldn't have been much different than the 2nd and Cond 3rd they got from us