Goaltending

[JTech780]

Fleury:

Low Danger sv%: 98.56 (Faced 11.71 LD shots/60 min.)

Mid Danger sv%: 91.13 (Faced 11.74 MD shots/60 min.)

High Danger sv%: 81.61 (Faced 9.8 HD shots/60 min.)

Goals Saved Above Average: 5.32

 

Elliott:

Low Danger sv%: 97.92 (Faced 11.15 LD shots/60 min.)

Mid Danger sv%: 92.32 (Faced 10.14 MD shots/60 min.)

High Danger sv%: 77.74 (Faced 6.9 HD shots/60 min.)

Goals Saved Above Average: -5.04

 

To me Fleury is a clear cut upgrade on Elliott.

[phoenix66]

We also have to consider this :

You are only as good, as how you stack up against who you have to beat .

To get out of our division , we have to beat Vancouver, Edmonton , Anaheim, San Jose and LA

Is there any of those you wouldnt swap starters in a second for ?(Yes, Even Miller )... that alone makes it clear we need an upgrade

 

Yes we we beat all those teams in different areas, but when you're last in goaltending it makes it a struggle

Fleury puts us right in the thick of it again 

[Cowtownguy]

4-0 for Ottawa after 13 mins. I think that the price for MAF just went down.

 

ETA: And he's tossed.

[cross16]

Price isn't going to change based on 1 game. Especially when his team never showed up in front of him. Pens are non existent tonight 

[Flyerfan52]

9 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

4-0 for Ottawa after 13 mins. I think that the price for MAF just went down.

 

ETA: And he's tossed.

Don't be so harsh. He did stop 5 of 9 shots.

[Cowtownguy]

5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Price isn't going to change based on 1 game. Especially when his team never showed up in front of him. Pens are non existent tonight 

True enough, but that wrap-around was just brutal and he knows it might be difficult for him to regain the net for the Pens ever again if Murray plays well. This is a Sens playoff record for goals in one period, and I feel confident that I have watched them play better hockey than this. Neither team looks very good tonight. A lot of those Sens shots were pretty weak. One goalie sure looked better than the other.

[Flyerfan52]

Murray in relief has a shutout happening.

That's right, a shutout.

[cross16]

8 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

True enough, but that wrap-around was just brutal and he knows it might be difficult for him to regain the net for the Pens ever again if Murray plays well. This is a Sens playoff record for goals in one period, and I feel confident that I have watched them play better hockey than this. Neither team looks very good tonight. A lot of those Sens shots were pretty weak. One goalie sure looked better than the other.

 

We differ greatly. I don't blame Fleury on any of those goals He was hung out to dry by his team and had no chance. Would have taken a highlight reel save to stop that wraparound. Maybe the first one he could have stopped. He didn't look great but the results are out of his control imo. 

Sens don't look fantastic but the Penguins look awful. Lots of standing around and gliding around for them. By far the worse they've looked in the playoffs. No intensity and the Sens came to play with intensity 

[travel_dude]

30 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

We also have to consider this :

You are only as good, as how you stack up against who you have to beat .

To get out of our division , we have to beat Vancouver, Edmonton , Anaheim, San Jose and LA

Is there any of those you wouldnt swap starters in a second for ?(Yes, Even Miller )... that alone makes it clear we need an upgrade

 

Yes we we beat all those teams in different areas, but when you're last in goaltending it makes it a struggle

Fleury puts us right in the thick of it again 

 

How often does MAF face those teams?  Currently, not very often.

Pretty select view of goalies, if you ask me.  We faced EDM a bunch of times when we were struggling; October and twice in January.  The 2-1 SO loss was close, but the 7-3 drubbing started with 3 goals in 5 minutes by CJ.  That also began the nightmare that almost derailed our season..again.  Anaheim was the last week of the season after Elliott cooled off.  Prior to that it was 1-1 in December and a loss early November.

 

The Pacific is not how I base the goaltending needs.  Two series against Anaheim in three years is luck of the draw.  Winning the division is the sure way of getting out of the division.  You get a team that barely made the playoffs.

 

[Cowtownguy]

8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

We differ greatly. I don't blame Fleury on any of those goals He was hung out to dry by his team and had no chance. Would have taken a highlight reel save to stop that wraparound. Maybe the first one he could have stopped. He didn't look great but the results are out of his control imo. 

Sens don't look fantastic but the Penguins look awful. Lots of standing around and gliding around for them. By far the worse they've looked in the playoffs. No intensity and the Sens came to play with intensity 

We do differ greatly on MAF, and that is fine. I think he is marginally better than Elliott at a much higher price tag. That means picks/prospects/salary after we already gave up some picks with Elliott. I am sure that we can both agree that MAF and Elliott are not equivalent to Price or Lundqvist. Like you, I want the goalie issue rectified. I am just not sure if there is a magical solution that makes sense for us.

 

In the end, we will see if Treliving has an answer. Who knows, maybe he swings a stupid good contract with Elliott and Raanta or something. Regardless, this is not going to be easy for him.

[phoenix66]

13 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

How often does MAF face those teams?  Currently, not very often.

Pretty select view of goalies, if you ask me.  We faced EDM a bunch of times when we were struggling; October and twice in January.  The 2-1 SO loss was close, but the 7-3 drubbing started with 3 goals in 5 minutes by CJ.  That also began the nightmare that almost derailed our season..again.  Anaheim was the last week of the season after Elliott cooled off.  Prior to that it was 1-1 in December and a loss early November.

 

The Pacific is not how I base the goaltending needs.  Two series against Anaheim in three years is luck of the draw.  Winning the division is the sure way of getting out of the division.  You get a team that barely made the playoffs.

 

You kind of missed my point , this wasnt about the head to head.. this is about the overall body of work.

Miller - Jones - Talbot- Quick - Gibson

 

is there one of those you wouldn't  take in a heartbeat to replace Elliot?-- would you trade Peak form Kipper for any of them ?   ..thats my point

 

but since you asked, and I do love looking up stats

 

Anaheim Ducks

12

9

3

0

28

334

306

.916

2.33

0

0

720:51

19

5

2

Edmonton Oilers

10

8

2

0

24

302

278

.921

2.39

1

4

603:18

15

5

2

San Jose Sharks

11

5

3

3

23

364

341

.937

2.15

0

0

641:53

16

5

0

Los Angeles Kings

11

6

3

2

23

361

338

.936

2.03

2

0

678:51

15

4

1

Vancouver Canucks

8

6

2

0

25

245

220

.898

3.04

0

0

493:01

21

3

1

 

 

and yes you are correct, winning the division is the goal.. to do that you need to beat the teams in your division regularly

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

You kind of missed my point , this wasnt about the head to head.. this is about the overall body of work.

Miller - Jones - Talbot- Quick - Gibson

 

is there one of those you wouldn't  take in a heartbeat to replace Elliot?-- would you trade Peak form Kipper for any of them ?   ..thats my point

 

but since you asked, and I do love looking up stats

 

Anaheim Ducks

12

9

3

0

28

334

306

.916

2.33

0

0

720:51

19

5

2

Edmonton Oilers

10

8

2

0

24

302

278

.921

2.39

1

4

603:18

15

5

2

San Jose Sharks

11

5

3

3

23

364

341

.937

2.15

0

0

641:53

16

5

0

Los Angeles Kings

11

6

3

2

23

361

338

.936

2.03

2

0

678:51

15

4

1

Vancouver Canucks

8

6

2

0

25

245

220

.898

3.04

0

0

493:01

21

3

1

 

 

Not sure what you are showing there.  Is that MAF against those teams and those are his wins?  If so, what does it prove?  The Pengies won against the Pacific?  If it's those teams against the Flames, how does that support your argument about MAF making us better? 

[phoenix66]

21 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Not sure what you are showing there.  Is that MAF against those teams and those are his wins?  If so, what does it prove?  The Pengies won against the Pacific?  If it's those teams against the Flames, how does that support your argument about MAF making us better? 

 

This is  MAF against those teams.. lifetime

Anaheim Ducks

12

9

3

0

28

334

306

.916

2.33

0

0

720:51

19

5

2

Edmonton Oilers

10

8

2

0

24

302

278

.921

2.39

1

4

603:18

15

5

2

San Jose Sharks

11

5

3

3

23

364

341

.937

2.15

0

0

641:53

16

5

0

Los Angeles Kings

11

6

3

2

23

361

338

.936

2.03

2

0

678:51

15

4

1

Vancouver Canucks

8

6

2

0

25

245

220

.898

3.04

0

0

493:01

21

3

1

 

Here's Elliot

Anaheim Ducks

12

1

7

3

37

320

283

.884

3.20

0

0

694:25

23

7

0

Edmonton Oilers

16

9

6

1

40

391

351

.898

2.59

1

0

927:46

18

8

0

San Jose Sharks

13

6

4

1

27

337

310

.920

2.56

2

0

633:40

17

5

1

Los Angeles Kings

15

5

6

2

31

398

367

.922

2.25

3

0

828:06

14

5

0

Vancouver Canucks

17

7

7

2

31

378

347

.918

1.93

3

0

964:22

19

5

0

 

 

First , it shows that MAF fares better against Pacific teams , the teams we have to play the most and beat .Even before he came to us, he (Elliot) struggled against our immediate head on rivals.

But that's not even the most important thing.. for all areas and opinion , every team in our division has a better #1 goaltender than us, thats not a recipe for success

 

 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

This is  MAF against those teams.. lifetime

Anaheim Ducks

12

9

3

0

28

334

306

.916

2.33

0

0

720:51

19

5

2

Edmonton Oilers

10

8

2

0

24

302

278

.921

2.39

1

4

603:18

15

5

2

San Jose Sharks

11

5

3

3

23

364

341

.937

2.15

0

0

641:53

16

5

0

Los Angeles Kings

11

6

3

2

23

361

338

.936

2.03

2

0

678:51

15

4

1

Vancouver Canucks

8

6

2

0

25

245

220

.898

3.04

0

0

493:01

21

3

1

 

Here's Elliot

Anaheim Ducks

12

1

7

3

37

320

283

.884

3.20

0

0

694:25

23

7

0

Edmonton Oilers

16

9

6

1

40

391

351

.898

2.59

1

0

927:46

18

8

0

San Jose Sharks

13

6

4

1

27

337

310

.920

2.56

2

0

633:40

17

5

1

Los Angeles Kings

15

5

6

2

31

398

367

.922

2.25

3

0

828:06

14

5

0

Vancouver Canucks

17

7

7

2

31

378

347

.918

1.93

3

0

964:22

19

5

0

 

 

First , it shows that MAF fares better against Pacific teams , the teams we have to play the most and beat .Even before he came to us, he struggled against our immediate head on rivals.

But that's not even the most important thing.. for all areas and opinion , every team in our division has a better #1 goaltender than us, thats not a recipe for success

 

 

 

 

 

 

That helps clarify it.  But those #1's that you talk about lost to PITTS and MAF.  As well, a team like PITTS has been one of the top teams in the East for a long time.  MAF was obviously part of that.  

 

Unfortunately, stats only show so much at 100 feet.  

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

That helps clarify it.  But those #1's that you talk about lost to PITTS and MAF.  As well, a team like PITTS has been one of the top teams in the East for a long time.  MAF was obviously part of that.  

 

Unfortunately, stats only show so much at 100 feet.  

 That St Louis team was pretty regular season dominant as well.. W-L can be heavily affected by the  team you play for yes, ..but GAA and SV% is purely individual.

Thats why I brought up the question,  which starter in our division , would you not take over Elliot?

[phoenix66]

That *Poof* sound you just heard was any chance that Murray may be the one traded going up in smoke.. no blame on Fleury , everyone has one bad game,   but for it to happen he had to keep Murray out of the net .

Right or wrong I think they start Murray next game, Sullivan has been waiting for the chance to get him in 

[Flyerfan52]

34 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 That St Louis team was pretty regular season dominant as well.. W-L can be heavily affected by the  team you play for yes, ..but GAA and SV% is purely individual.

Thats why I brought up the question,  which starter in our division , would you not take over Elliot?

Actually they aren't. The team in front of the goalie has a huge impact on the # of shots that make it through & the quality.

A defensive team allows less shots against but the corollogy is the 1s that make it through are higher quality/better %. Stopping 50 low quality 1s is easy but stopping 10 high probability 1s is harder.

That's why I harp on a stronger defense even if we upgrade in net. Ideally I'd like every forward to buy into team defense but with our roster that's unlikely so I want the 1s that do to realize that dedication is noted.

******************************************************************************************

 

Strange but I've been reading the St. L fans are harping on JBo for not being offense oriented enough. De vu of what I used to read in threads here.

[MAC331]

11 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Actually they aren't. The team in front of the goalie has a huge impact on the # of shots that make it through & the quality.

A defensive team allows less shots against but the corollogy is the 1s that make it through are higher quality/better %. Stopping 50 low quality 1s is easy but stopping 10 high probability 1s is harder.

That's why I harp on a stronger defense even if we upgrade in net. Ideally I'd like every forward to buy into team defense but with our roster that's unlikely so I want the 1s that do to realize that dedication is noted.

******************************************************************************************

 

Strange but I've been reading the St. L fans are harping on JBo for not being offense oriented enough. De vu of what I used to read in threads here.

Funny how nobody is mentioning how bad the Pens defense is without Letang.

[MAC331]

12 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

 

This is  MAF against those teams.. lifetime

Anaheim Ducks

12

9

3

0

28

334

306

.916

2.33

0

0

720:51

19

5

2

Edmonton Oilers

10

8

2

0

24

302

278

.921

2.39

1

4

603:18

15

5

2

San Jose Sharks

11

5

3

3

23

364

341

.937

2.15

0

0

641:53

16

5

0

Los Angeles Kings

11

6

3

2

23

361

338

.936

2.03

2

0

678:51

15

4

1

Vancouver Canucks

8

6

2

0

25

245

220

.898

3.04

0

0

493:01

21

3

1

 

Here's Elliot

Anaheim Ducks

12

1

7

3

37

320

283

.884

3.20

0

0

694:25

23

7

0

Edmonton Oilers

16

9

6

1

40

391

351

.898

2.59

1

0

927:46

18

8

0

San Jose Sharks

13

6

4

1

27

337

310

.920

2.56

2

0

633:40

17

5

1

Los Angeles Kings

15

5

6

2

31

398

367

.922

2.25

3

0

828:06

14

5

0

Vancouver Canucks

17

7

7

2

31

378

347

.918

1.93

3

0

964:22

19

5

0

 

 

First , it shows that MAF fares better against Pacific teams , the teams we have to play the most and beat .Even before he came to us, he (Elliot) struggled against our immediate head on rivals.

But that's not even the most important thing.. for all areas and opinion , every team in our division has a better #1 goaltender than us, thats not a recipe for success

 

 

 

 

 

Question for you. Do see our team going right to the SC with someone like MAF over the next 2 seasons ?

I would say unless BT is going to go for a franchise type goalie like TOR did with Andersson, resign Elliott for 2 more seasons at 3.5M. Take a serious look at the development Gilles, Rittich, MacDonald, Schneider and Parsons need over those 2 years so they are ready to take the reins.

[JTech780]

22 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Question for you. Do see our team going right to the SC with someone like MAF over the next 2 seasons ?

I would say unless BT is going to go for a franchise type goalie like TOR did with Andersson, resign Elliott for 2 more seasons at 3.5M. Take a serious look at the development Gilles, Rittich, MacDonald, Schneider and Parsons need over those 2 years so they are ready to take the reins.

 

I know you weren't asking me, but I will chime in with a question of my own. Do you think a team like Nashville is significantly better than we are?

 

To answer my own question, I don't see them being that much better, they are just playing their best hockey at the right time and are getting great goaltending from Rinne. If we had Fleury and he gave us quality goaltending like he is with Pittsburgh, we surely capable of going on a run. 

 

The west is pretty wide open right now, there really isn't a dominant team in the west any more, why sit around and wait. Go out and get the best goaltending you can get now.

 

I get the feeling that people dont think the Cup window is open yet, but the window is open and you better take as many shots at it as possible, because it closes quickly.

[phoenix66]

26 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Question for you. Do see our team going right to the SC with someone like MAF over the next 2 seasons ?

I would say unless BT is going to go for a franchise type goalie like TOR did with Andersson, resign Elliott for 2 more seasons at 3.5M. Take a serious look at the development Gilles, Rittich, MacDonald, Schneider and Parsons need over those 2 years so they are ready to take the reins.

Yes, with conviction.

This year alone, if MAF is in net , we are the ones playing the Preds right now. Final 4 anything can happen

We lost to the Ducks primarily due to Goaltending .. the OIlers lost because they had no second line 

just with the current roster, we got swept by Edmonton, that's an 8 point swing right there , the difference between us flipping positions.. we get ONE MORE win at anywhere in the season above that ?  we win the Division 

 

Now, thats not all that's required, BT has to continue to improve the other areas, like he is .. upgrade the D, the 4th line, and solidify the top RW..  but the difference is we're trending towards a Chicago model, that once we crest that peak, every season we're favourites.

Edmonton on the other hand, is trending to a one and done.. they need to load up next season and do it , or its going to be a wait due to the cap readjustments, but just like Pittsburgh, as much as it pains me to say it they will be a very very good team for years to come now. We need to react to that .

Even Pittsburgh, got their 1st cup quick with Sidney.. then didn't get back there for 7 years .In the meantime Chicago won 3

We are trending up .. within 2 years we will have a pipleline that continues to put players to the big team when another is ready to be replaced.. especially goaltending , but we're good enough now that with the top level consistent goaltending we're in the hunt to make noise. We dont have the luxury of waiting for them , we need to bridge to that point and push the momentum.

[Carty]

When Fleury has been in the zone during the playoffs and the Pens have won, he has put up some impressive numbers...   .956 SV% & 1.52 GAA while facing an average of 35.7 shots...   His stats fall off a cliff for the losses, with a .864 SV% & 4.39 GAA while facing an average of 28.2 shots, but the D and the Pens as a team also share blame for the losses...

 

 

 

That said, Fleury has also been able to come back with some solid performances after losses...   Viability of acquiring Fleury would depend on availability and cost...   He is not my first choice, but Bishop and Darling are taken, other possibilities are still unknown depending on availability, but Fleury is still an upgrade over either of Elliott or Johnson...

 

The question has become who else might become available in the right trade that would be a better option, and at this point it is impossible to say...   The cost might be more than some might want to see the Flames spend, but the Flames can't afford to go into next season with just average or sub-par goaltending either...   They need an upgrade as a starter...

[MAC331]

58 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I know you weren't asking me, but I will chime in with a question of my own. Do you think a team like Nashville is significantly better than we are?

 

To answer my own question, I don't see them being that much better, they are just playing their best hockey at the right time and are getting great goaltending from Rinne. If we had Fleury and he gave us quality goaltending like he is with Pittsburgh, we surely capable of going on a run. 

 

The west is pretty wide open right now, there really isn't a dominant team in the west any more, why sit around and wait. Go out and get the best goaltending you can get now.

 

I get the feeling that people dont think the Cup window is open yet, but the window is open and you better take as many shots at it as possible, because it closes quickly.

These posts are for everyone, it is good hearing the thoughts.

I do think Nashville is significantly better from the net out and look at the time it has taken for their day in the sun. let me say this, at this level of hockey and talent the separations are not as extreme as they used to be, parity has creeped in. Yes I believe the SC should be a goal at level every year but certain deficiencies also hold you back to a certain degree as slightly as this may be. Experience of the individuals becomes collective IMO for a team to be prepared for all situations necessary to win through all the playoffs. I will use the ANA series an the example, yes we were close in effort and could have won a few games however when they needed to gear it up to push for the win their experience took over. It wasn't all goaltending IMO it was our team not mature enough to answer the bell yet.

[Cowtownguy]

8 minutes ago, Carty said:

When Fleury has been in the zone during the playoffs and the Pens have won, he has put up some impressive numbers...   .956 SV% & 1.52 GAA while facing an average of 35.7 shots...   His stats fall off a cliff for the losses, with a .864 SV% & 4.39 GAA while facing an average of 28.2 shots, but the D and the Pens as a team also share blame for the losses...

 

 

 

That said, Fleury has also been able to come back with some solid performances after losses...   Viability of acquiring Fleury would depend on availability and cost...   He is not my first choice, but Bishop and Darling are taken, other possibilities are still unknown depending on availability, but Fleury is still an upgrade over either of Elliott or Johnson...

 

The question has become who else might become available in the right trade that would be a better option, and at this point it is impossible to say...   The cost might be more than some might want to see the Flames spend, but the Flames can't afford to go into next season with just average or sub-par goaltending either...   They need an upgrade as a starter...

Basically my sentiments more or less. Fleury is an upgrade over Elliott, but not enough of one that I would sell the farm just to obtain the rights to speak with his agent. I would not be surprised if he never plays for the Pens again. They need to get rid of someone (and they will get rid of him), he wants the #1 position, and we have a hole. I suspect that he would be happy with that development too. For me, it is all about the cost and term. At the same time, I would not put it past him to have a similar season to the one Elliott just had. That is, a slow start, a solid end, and a choke in the playoffs. That is why I see him as a lateral to slight improvement over Elliott at a higher cost. I also want Treliving to bolster the blue line with another Stone-like player.

 

As you said, it is impossible to know who might become available. We are now in the position to dangle a few more attractive options to teams who may be willing to move more assets. This may be an interesting period coming up with the draft and the Vegas expansion. 

[MAC331]

58 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Yes, with conviction.

This year alone, if MAF is in net , we are the ones playing the Preds right now. Final 4 anything can happen

We lost to the Ducks primarily due to Goaltending .. the OIlers lost because they had no second line 

just with the current roster, we got swept by Edmonton, that's an 8 point swing right there , the difference between us flipping positions.. we get ONE MORE win at anywhere in the season above that ?  we win the Division 

 

Now, thats not all that's required, BT has to continue to improve the other areas, like he is .. upgrade the D, the 4th line, and solidify the top RW..  but the difference is we're trending towards a Chicago model, that once we crest that peak, every season we're favourites.

Edmonton on the other hand, is trending to a one and done.. they need to load up next season and do it , or its going to be a wait due to the cap readjustments, but just like Pittsburgh, as much as it pains me to say it they will be a very very good team for years to come now. We need to react to that .

Even Pittsburgh, got their 1st cup quick with Sidney.. then didn't get back there for 7 years .In the meantime Chicago won 3

We are trending up .. within 2 years we will have a pipleline that continues to put players to the big team when another is ready to be replaced.. especially goaltending , but we're good enough now that with the top level consistent goaltending we're in the hunt to make noise. We don't have the luxury of waiting for them , we need to bridge to that point and push the momentum.

I'm not sure I agree with your thinking or your expectations, both are ahead of schedule IMO but that's OK for you. I look at all the teams in the West and see good teams with the exception of VAN and ARZ. We have to keep improving with talent adds and the talent we have maturing with experience. I am not as sure as you are that MAF is that much of an upgrade on Elliott, both will provide you good goaltending. I would rather sign Elliott and trade for someone like Grubauer who not only would challenge Elliott but would give all our prospects a target to knock off if they want to be our #1.