Goaltending

[MAC331]

9 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

only 1 goaltender can be protected .. and you must make at least one available .

 

tho I never did find out what is the penalty for not making one available?

THX phoenix, maybe Murray becomes a RW this offseason. LOL

This could get very interesting with how Fleury is performing and how much his teammates like him there. It make one wonder if JR might just deal Murray and keep Fleury.

Is Murray really worth any more than Andersson was when dealt last offseason ?

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

THX phoenix, maybe Murray becomes a RW this offseason. LOL

This could get very interesting with how Fleury is performing and how much his teammates like him there. It make one wonder if JR might just deal Murray and keep Fleury.

Is Murray really worth any more than Andersson was when dealt last offseason ?

 

If switching positions was the answer, many team would have done it.  Big Buff could have been designated as a center, since he did play there frequently, but I think it relies on the number of game where you play that position.

 

The penalties would be extreme for not complying with the rules; as in lost draft picks and major fines.  

 

Murray has a long career ahead of him, while Andersen is a bit older.  Both are good.  One had a great playoffs last year, while the other had a good one (they went with Gibson for part).  I don't know that Anaheim ever makes that deal unless there was a Expansion Draft in their future.

[MAC331]

53 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If switching positions was the answer, many team would have done it.  Big Buff could have been designated as a center, since he did play there frequently, but I think it relies on the number of game where you play that position.

 

The penalties would be extreme for not complying with the rules; as in lost draft picks and major fines.  

 

Murray has a long career ahead of him, while Andersen is a bit older.  Both are good.  One had a great playoffs last year, while the other had a good one (they went with Gibson for part).  I don't know that Anaheim ever makes that deal unless there was a Expansion Draft in their future.

I think this PIT goalie question gets more interesting with every win MAF pulls off and how far the go with him in these playoffs. Crosby and him are tight so who knows.

I think I will stick with my want of Mrazek from DET for a resolve to our goal, maybe pick up Berube as a back up.

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

I think this PIT goalie question gets more interesting with every win MAF pulls off and how far the go with him in these playoffs. Crosby and him are tight so who knows.

I think I will stick with my want of Mrazek from DET for a resolve to our goal, maybe pick up Berube as a back up.

I actually wonder about that .. MAF is Crosby's best friend , I'm sure it comes down to business,  but wonder if Crosby tries to pull a favor from the owners(especially Mario)

[JTech780]

I know a lot of people have been concerned about our goalie coach and the job he has done. I wonder with all the shake ups in Buffalo if Andrew Allen is available. He has been the goalie coach in Buffalo the last two seasons and has gotten pretty solid results from his goalies despite not having a great team in front of him. Now I can't find anything suggesting that he waset go in the shake up, but he would be a guy I would take a long look at.

[phoenix66]

Just now, JTech780 said:

I know a lot of people have been concerned about our goalie coach and the job he has done. I wonder with all the shake ups in Buffalo if Andrew Allen is available. He has been the goalie coach in Buffalo the last two seasons and has gotten pretty solid results from his goalies despite not having a great team in front of him. Now I can't find anything suggesting that he waset go in the shake up, but he would be a guy I would take a long look at.

I'd even settle for a flip with the guy in Stockton.. he's obviously doing a good job.. sent Sigalet down and bring him up ...

[MAC331]

Just now, phoenix66 said:

I actually wonder about that .. MAF is Crosby's best friend , I'm sure it comes down to business,  but wonder if Crosby tries to pull a favor from the owners(especially Mario)

At some point you have to make a choice and Fleury is delivering. Murray to a team that can protect him should fetch a handsome haul. If PIT is interested in saving money they could also move Malkin this offseason.

[phoenix66]

Another name to keep an eye on is Linus Ullmark in Buffalo, not sure he's ready for starter primetime, but with the new regime in Buffalo, people are saying protecting Lehner is not a slam dunk.. they may elect to protect Ullmark instead

[travel_dude]

As Cross has said, we are debating a lot of goalies here, but the true targets lie somewhere below the surface.  Other than sportscasters talking about what makes sense, we have only been linked to one goalie since last summer; Bishop.  

 

• MAF makes sense as a true starter, but cost to obtain may be higher due to the playoffs.  He may already be part of a deal to LV or another team.  He may be the goalie PITTS decides to keep.
• Grubauer makes sense as a starter option, but the risk is he's not ready to do the job in year 1.  The Flames do not want to go with an unproven starter and have no backup plan.  
• Raanta is in the same boat as Grubauer.
• Saros may never even be available for trade.  There is no benefit (unless overpayment) for them to move him.
• UFA's like Mason present a big risk, as they would need to be signed to more than one year.  Mason's last playoff performance was worse than Elliott's.
• Elliott is a lightening rod for Flames fans.  Whether he can have a bounceback season or not is secondary, as many point the finger to him for the terrible start and bad playoff games.  
• CJ seems to get a pass, since he only was responsible for letting in the winning goal in game 4.  Many feel that he saved the season for the Flames.

 

I do find it odd that there is very little substance in the goalie rumours.  Nothing substancial about MAF, Raanta, Grubauer, etc.  No smoke.  Maybe the fire is burning below the surface.   

[MAC331]

Just now, travel_dude said:

As Cross has said, we are debating a lot of goalies here, but the true targets lie somewhere below the surface.  Other than sportscasters talking about what makes sense, we have only been linked to one goalie since last summer; Bishop.  

 

• MAF makes sense as a true starter, but cost to obtain may be higher due to the playoffs.  He may already be part of a deal to LV or another team.  He may be the goalie PITTS decides to keep.
• Grubauer makes sense as a starter option, but the risk is he's not ready to do the job in year 1.  The Flames do not want to go with an unproven starter and have no backup plan.  
• Raanta is in the same boat as Grubauer.
• Saros may never even be available for trade.  There is no benefit (unless overpayment) for them to move him.
• UFA's like Mason present a big risk, as they would need to be signed to more than one year.  Mason's last playoff performance was worse than Elliott's.
• Elliott is a lightening rod for Flames fans.  Whether he can have a bounceback season or not is secondary, as many point the finger to him for the terrible start and bad playoff games.  
• CJ seems to get a pass, since he only was responsible for letting in the winning goal in game 4.  Many feel that he saved the season for the Flames.

 

I do find it odd that there is very little substance in the goalie rumours.  Nothing substancial about MAF, Raanta, Grubauer, etc.  No smoke.  Maybe the fire is burning below the surface.   

It usually is a deal that no one is really talking about publicly. Sportwriters are paid to spin all the obvious stuff especially if familiar names are available. GMs are talking directly to each other and likely have a handle on who is available and what it takes to do a deal.

[phoenix66]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

As Cross has said, we are debating a lot of goalies here, but the true targets lie somewhere below the surface.  Other than sportscasters talking about what makes sense, we have only been linked to one goalie since last summer; Bishop.  

 

• MAF makes sense as a true starter, but cost to obtain may be higher due to the playoffs.  He may already be part of a deal to LV or another team.  He may be the goalie PITTS decides to keep.
• Grubauer makes sense as a starter option, but the risk is he's not ready to do the job in year 1.  The Flames do not want to go with an unproven starter and have no backup plan.  
• Raanta is in the same boat as Grubauer.
• Saros may never even be available for trade.  There is no benefit (unless overpayment) for them to move him.
• UFA's like Mason present a big risk, as they would need to be signed to more than one year.  Mason's last playoff performance was worse than Elliott's.
• Elliott is a lightening rod for Flames fans.  Whether he can have a bounceback season or not is secondary, as many point the finger to him for the terrible start and bad playoff games.  
• CJ seems to get a pass, since he only was responsible for letting in the winning goal in game 4.  Many feel that he saved the season for the Flames.

 

I do find it odd that there is very little substance in the goalie rumours.  Nothing substancial about MAF, Raanta, Grubauer, etc.  No smoke.  Maybe the fire is burning below the surface.   

Thats a Great Summary..!

 

I think it boils down to :

1) Everyone would welcome an Upgrade to Elliot..(eg: MAF,Murray, Lehner, Mrazek)

2) If you cant upgrade don't go sideways.no need to possibly give up assets for the same thing you can just sign

3) If Elliot doesnt come back (signs elsewhere) there are lots of sideways moves to make (Miller, Bernier, Mason etc)

4) once #1 is solidified, ok to put a project in place (Raanta, Grubauer)

5)CJ as an excellent backup choice if #4 doesnt happen

 

Flames are in a unique position , in that we have no Goal protected.. should the MAF/ Murray not materialize, we are in position to trade for a Raanta, etc.. and protect him even as a backup .. obviously MAF is the domino here ..

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

As Cross has said, we are debating a lot of goalies here, but the true targets lie somewhere below the surface.  Other than sportscasters talking about what makes sense, we have only been linked to one goalie since last summer; Bishop.  

 

• MAF makes sense as a true starter, but cost to obtain may be higher due to the playoffs.  He may already be part of a deal to LV or another team.  He may be the goalie PITTS decides to keep.
• Grubauer makes sense as a starter option, but the risk is he's not ready to do the job in year 1.  The Flames do not want to go with an unproven starter and have no backup plan.  
• Raanta is in the same boat as Grubauer.
• Saros may never even be available for trade.  There is no benefit (unless overpayment) for them to move him.
• UFA's like Mason present a big risk, as they would need to be signed to more than one year.  Mason's last playoff performance was worse than Elliott's.
• Elliott is a lightening rod for Flames fans.  Whether he can have a bounceback season or not is secondary, as many point the finger to him for the terrible start and bad playoff games.  
• CJ seems to get a pass, since he only was responsible for letting in the winning goal in game 4.  Many feel that he saved the season for the Flames.

 

I do find it odd that there is very little substance in the goalie rumours.  Nothing substancial about MAF, Raanta, Grubauer, etc.  No smoke.  Maybe the fire is burning below the surface.   

 

The way Treliving operates. Never heard anything about Flames - Hamilton until the trade was made. Spent over a month debating coaches before Gulutzan's name was even mentioned. Talks between Johnny/Mony were shockingly quiet. Nothing about Flames - Elliott until the trade was announced  etc etc etc. Treliving is the type that goes after what he wants, even if it isn't available, and works the phones he won't just let the market come to him. 

 

MInd you, it's quiet everywhere right now and until the season ends it will likely remain that way. NHL likes the focus to be on the playoffs. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

At some point you have to make a choice and Fleury is delivering. Murray to a team that can protect him should fetch a handsome haul. If PIT is interested in saving money they could also move Malkin this offseason.

 

I really hope we can get Murray.

 

Chicago kept Crawford (32) over Darling.  LA kept Quick (30) over Jones.  Maybe the Penguins keep Fleury (32) over Murray.

 

Keeping the older guy who has a good track record over a younger promising goalie who hasn't fully established himself has been done many times before and very recently as well.  It's very possible the Pens keep MAF over Murray.

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

The way Treliving operates. Never heard anything about Flames - Hamilton until the trade was made. Spent over a month debating coaches before Gulutzan's name was even mentioned. Talks between Johnny/Mony were shockingly quiet. Nothing about Flames - Elliott until the trade was announced  etc etc etc. Treliving is the type that goes after what he wants, even if it isn't available, and works the phones he won't just let the market come to him. 

 

MInd you, it's quiet everywhere right now and until the season ends it will likely remain that way. NHL likes the focus to be on the playoffs. 

exactly , like you said before it will end up with comments of  "never saw that coming ".. or "thats all it took?" lol

 

and to be fair.. GG was mentioned in the first comment of interviews, but nobody noticed it cuz it was the same time as Carlyle and everybody was going off on that..LOL  Him and Carlyle were the 1st 2 to be mentioned as permission requested to talk to 

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I really hope we can get Murray.

 

Chicago kept Crawford (32) over Darling.  LA kept Quick (30) over Jones.  Maybe the Penguins keep Fleury (32) over Murray.

 

Keeping the older guy who has a good track record over a younger promising goalie who hasn't fully established himself has been done many times before and very recently as well.  It's very possible the Pens keep MAF over Murray.

 

Possible, but in all of those cases the teams passed over young guys who hadn't proven anything. Bit different when you are passing over a 22 year goalie who has already won you a cup and shown to be one of the better goalies in the league. 

 

I still contend there is zero percent chance Murray is not a Penguin next year.

[The_People1]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Possible, but in all of those cases the teams passed over young guys who hadn't proven anything. Bit different when you are passing over a 22 year goalie who has already won you a cup and shown to be one of the better goalies in the league. 

 

I still contend there is zero percent chance Murray is not a Penguin next year.

 

How can something be "possible" and "zero percent" chance at the same time?  I concede it will not be likely, not to mention ill-advised, to keep MAF over Murray.  Just saying, there's a decent chance, like maybe 20% and depends on what the Flames are willing to offer.

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

How can something be "possible" and "zero percent" chance at the same time?  I concede it will not be likely, not to mention ill-advised, to keep MAF over Murray.  Just saying, there's a decent chance, like maybe 20% and depends on what the Flames are willing to offer.

I agree its highly unlikely .. but in this day and age never is not a word that exists

I will say this ..  if Pitts wins the Cup .. and MAF is MVP..he's going to make JR do a lot of sweating ..  the optics of trading your conn smythe winner , I think is unprecedented

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

The way Treliving operates. Never heard anything about Flames - Hamilton until the trade was made. Spent over a month debating coaches before Gulutzan's name was even mentioned. Talks between Johnny/Mony were shockingly quiet. Nothing about Flames - Elliott until the trade was announced  etc etc etc. Treliving is the type that goes after what he wants, even if it isn't available, and works the phones he won't just let the market come to him. 

 

MInd you, it's quiet everywhere right now and until the season ends it will likely remain that way. NHL likes the focus to be on the playoffs. 

 

The Dougie situation was brewing below the surface, and happened fairly quickly at the draft.  BOS was worried about an OS.

 

Elliott was a secondary deal that was being worked on, along with MAF and Bishop.  BT was intent on leaving Buffalo with a goalie, so Elliott was just another option.  

 

There was some speculation about Gully, since he ahd to be interviewed.  In the case of player agents, some stuff does get leaked; not always but sometimes.  In this case, I agree that the deal will be announced within hours of the first valid rumour.  

[cross16]

21 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

How can something be "possible" and "zero percent" chance at the same time?  I concede it will not be likely, not to mention ill-advised, to keep MAF over Murray.  Just saying, there's a decent chance, like maybe 20% and depends on what the Flames are willing to offer.

 

I think there is a zero percent chance. The possibility lies in me being wrong 

[phoenix66]

let me ask this,  I think we are all in agreement that if we can upgrade Elliot, we do it.. if we can't , then he's our best option.

What do people think are realistic options to upgrade , and I'm talking real, not experiments or gambles.

So far I see the list based on comments as :

 

MAF

Murray

Mrazek

Lehner

 

Am I missing anybody ?

[JTech780]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

let me ask this,  I think we are all in agreement that if we can upgrade Elliot, we do it.. if we can't , then he's our best option.

What do people think are realistic options to upgrade , and I'm talking real, not experiments or gambles.

So far I see the list based on comments as :

 

MAF

Murray

Mrazek

Lehner

 

Am I missing anybody ?

 

I highly doubt Lehner is available, I would love to have him, but I haven't heard anywhere that he was going to be available outside of you on this forum.

 

I think Mike Smith would be an upgrade over Elliott. If Jimmy Howard could stay healthy he would be an upgrade.

[cross16]

12 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

let me ask this,  I think we are all in agreement that if we can upgrade Elliot, we do it.. if we can't , then he's our best option.

What do people think are realistic options to upgrade , and I'm talking real, not experiments or gambles.

So far I see the list based on comments as :

 

MAF

Murray

Mrazek

Lehner

 

Am I missing anybody ?

 

I am going to get roasted for this but IMO Steve Mason is an upgrade to Elliott as well. Keep in mind i'm not a huge Elliott fan so that's why I think Mason is an upgrade. I agree that Howard is an upgrade as well as Mike Smith. 

 

If you are going to put Murray and Lehner on your list than Cory Schneider should be on there too. Non Zero chance the Devils move him, although I think its less likely than it was before they got the number 1 pick. 

 

 

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I highly doubt Lehner is available, I would love to have him, but I haven't heard anywhere that he was going to be available outside of you on this forum.

 

I think Mike Smith would be an upgrade over Elliott. If Jimmy Howard could stay healthy he would be an upgrade.

mostly Bloggers and other articles,  but the argument is good that i put him in the same boat as Murray.. not likely , but not carved in stone he's the one to protect

I like Smith..personally i see him as a sideways, but his high end I can agree hes an upgrade .. i just worry about his age and how long we have to need him

 

Dont know what it is about Howard.. i just cant get past the feeling hes a benefit of the Detroit old system .. even his own team buried him in the Minors, tough call .. but thats just my opinion , I agree his numbers say otherwise

[phoenix66]

12 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I am going to get roasted for this but IMO Steve Mason is an upgrade to Elliott as well. Keep in mind i'm not a huge Elliott fan so that's why I think Mason is an upgrade. I agree that Howard is an upgrade as well as Mike Smith. 

 

If you are going to put Murray and Lehner on your list than Cory Schneider should be on there too. Non Zero chance the Devils move him, although I think its less likely than it was before they got the number 1 pick. 

 

 

ok , I'll bite ..  i can make the argument as to why Lehner and Murray are realistic(even if slim).. what would prompt NJ to move on from Schenider? whats their back up plan ?

if its just $ then we may as well put Holtby and Varlamov on that list too

not criticizing , just curious as to the speculation..

 

pS.. personal thoughts on the player aside, wouldn't Mason be sideways?  when hes good hes very good.. when hes bad hes very bad

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

ok , I'll bite ..  i can make the argument as to why Lehner and Murray are realistic(even if slim).. what would prompt NJ to move on from Schenider? whats their back up plan ?

if its just $ then we may as well put Holtby and Varlamov on that list too

not criticizing , just curious as to the speculation..

 

It's the Iginla argument. Your team is not moving int he right direction and won't for several years so do you hang on to your aging star or do you move him for some assets that can help you be that much better in 2-3 years when maybe you can contend? Devils roster is very talent deficient so trading Schendier could get them some assets to help in their rebuild and I think its fair to question how much value there is in holding on to a 31 year goalie while going through a 2-3 year rebuild. Not to mention, does Schendier want to be part of that? They also have Scott Wedgewood and Mackenzie Blackwood in the pipeline that they could turn it over to in a couple of years and both were goalie for Team Canada at the WJ so there is some potential there. 

 

It was a more valid argument before the got the number 1 pick though and I do think its odds have gone down since they got that pick as that was a major shot in the arm but its still a roster that will take a few years. But like I said to me its as plausible an argument as there is for trading Murray/Lehner.