Goaltending

[kehatch]

There is no question the Flames need to upgrade at more then just goal. Coaching will be changed. Hopefully we see some roster changes as well.

But our top 3D is strong, we have good centre depth, and we have some strong defensive wingers. Goaltending was a problem all on its own last season. It wasn't the only problem, but it was a big one.

We had two underperforming veterans and a disappointing rookie that led to one of the worst performances in modern NHL history. Meanwhile none of those guys are under contract and goalies should be available due to the expansion draft.

Of course Treliving is going to take advantage of the market and address goaltending. Thst should set the stage to stabilize the net, improve confidence in the players, and create an environment that young goalies can enter into and be successful.

[cross16]

I think people really overrate how much impact a team can make on a goalie. I've sid this before, but when you read this board you'd swear the Flames defence is literally the worst defence the league has ever seen and apparently no goalie is every going to play well in from it and quite frankily, its the silliest argument that floats around here.

 

Unfortunately we lost what was a fantastic resource in War on ice that tracked scoring chances so I have to go by memory here but I looked at it so much I'm pretty confident this data is right. If someone has another website they use to track scoring chances please let me know.

 

I think people don't realize how much parity there is in the league and how small the different is between the best teams and the worst teams. The different in shots against per game between the best team in the league and the worst is 6. The different between the best team in the league and the worst team in terms of scoring chances against 5 on 5 was something like 4 maybe 5. The different between the best and the worst team in terms of high danger scoring chances against per game is right around 3. I also think the difference between the Penguins and the Flames in those categories was very small. People act like the Penguins are some great defensive team and they are not. Sullivan turned them into one, but they weren't very good until that and Fleury's stats were still great.

 

Also food for thought, last year the Flames were 16 in the NHL in save percentage and as everyone knows this eyar they were 30th. However, the Flames actually gave up less shots, had more puck possession and had fewer scoring chances against and fewer high danger scoring chances against this season than they did last year.

 

Like Kehatch said I don't mind if peole don't like MAF and by no means am I advocating the Flames have to acquire him or he would be my number 1 target. I just think this argument that we shouldn't acquire goalies because the defence is so bad their stats will plummet is just ridiculous, and not supported by any data. Do the Flames need to play better defensively, absolutely without question they do. NO one, Flames included has ever said that a goalie is a cure all it is just one piece to the puzzle. I happen to believe there is enough talent here to be a good defensive club but they played the wrong type of defensive system last year.

[MAC331]

I think people really overrate how much impact a team can make on a goalie. I've sid this before, but when you read this board you'd swear the Flames defence is literally the worst defence the league has ever seen and apparently no goalie is every going to play well in from it and quite frankily, its the silliest argument that floats around here.

 

Unfortunately we lost what was a fantastic resource in War on ice that tracked scoring chances so I have to go by memory here but I looked at it so much I'm pretty confident this data is right. If someone has another website they use to track scoring chances please let me know.

 

I think people don't realize how much parity there is in the league and how small the different is between the best teams and the worst teams. The different in shots against per game between the best team in the league and the worst is 6. The different between the best team in the league and the worst team in terms of scoring chances against 5 on 5 was something like 4 maybe 5. The different between the best and the worst team in terms of high danger scoring chances against per game is right around 3. I also think the difference between the Penguins and the Flames in those categories was very small. People act like the Penguins are some great defensive team and they are not. Sullivan turned them into one, but they weren't very good until that and Fleury's stats were still great.

 

Also food for thought, last year the Flames were 16 in the NHL in save percentage and as everyone knows this eyar they were 30th. However, the Flames actually gave up less shots, had more puck possession and had fewer scoring chances against and fewer high danger scoring chances against this season than they did last year.

 

Like Kehatch said I don't mind if peole don't like MAF and by no means am I advocating the Flames have to acquire him or he would be my number 1 target. I just think this argument that we shouldn't acquire goalies because the defence is so bad their stats will plummet is just ridiculous, and not supported by any data. Do the Flames need to play better defensively, absolutely without question they do. NO one, Flames included has ever said that a goalie is a cure all it is just one piece to the puzzle. I happen to believe there is enough talent here to be a good defensive club but they played the wrong type of defensive system last year.

I will tell you what I saw a lot of last year and that was defensive pairing not trusting their partners or their goalies and trying to do to much individually. This creates openings and cause for a lot of blown coverages. No we are not a real physical D corp but there is a lot of smarts there and in today's game where so much has been taken away from defensemen in how they defend positioning is essential. I thought we became better as a unit when Hamilton became more familiar with his teammates, we traded Russell and put in Jokipakka and we limited Wideman's time on the ice.

[robrob1974]

I think it is a team game and to suggest otherwise doesn't make sense. A team's D would effect a goalies' performance and vice versa.

Goalies can give players confidence.

I think anyone suggesting we were only 5 wins out and that scoring chances are a small differential between all teams are looking at things with rose coloured glasses.

Our team gets hemmed in so much, give up a lot of high end scoring chances. Ok, so you say it's only a few more. But high end scoring chances have extreme likelihood of scoring. You give up as many as we do then a good to great goalie can only do so much.

We have good pieces. Hopefully it is just a coaching philosophy. The way we played the year we went to the playoffs was not sustainable and it was proven last year. We had the 5th worst record and a better goalie would still have gotten us to just outside the playoffs looking in. Instead of Drafting 5th (6th) we would have been in the 10th to 13th range. Ok, that's an improvement and where I think we will draft next year with a better goalie unless there is more roster change or a prospect steps up.

[phoenix66]

I think people really overrate how much impact a team can make on a goalie. I've sid this before, but when you read this board you'd swear the Flames defence is literally the worst defence the league has ever seen and apparently no goalie is every going to play well in from it and quite frankily, its the silliest argument that floats around here.

 

Unfortunately we lost what was a fantastic resource in War on ice that tracked scoring chances so I have to go by memory here but I looked at it so much I'm pretty confident this data is right. If someone has another website they use to track scoring chances please let me know.

 

I think people don't realize how much parity there is in the league and how small the different is between the best teams and the worst teams. The different in shots against per game between the best team in the league and the worst is 6. The different between the best team in the league and the worst team in terms of scoring chances against 5 on 5 was something like 4 maybe 5. The different between the best and the worst team in terms of high danger scoring chances against per game is right around 3. I also think the difference between the Penguins and the Flames in those categories was very small. People act like the Penguins are some great defensive team and they are not. Sullivan turned them into one, but they weren't very good until that and Fleury's stats were still great.

 

Also food for thought, last year the Flames were 16 in the NHL in save percentage and as everyone knows this eyar they were 30th. However, the Flames actually gave up less shots, had more puck possession and had fewer scoring chances against and fewer high danger scoring chances against this season than they did last year.

 

Like Kehatch said I don't mind if peole don't like MAF and by no means am I advocating the Flames have to acquire him or he would be my number 1 target. I just think this argument that we shouldn't acquire goalies because the defence is so bad their stats will plummet is just ridiculous, and not supported by any data. Do the Flames need to play better defensively, absolutely without question they do. NO one, Flames included has ever said that a goalie is a cure all it is just one piece to the puzzle. I happen to believe there is enough talent here to be a good defensive club but they played the wrong type of defensive system last year.

 

 

agree with this. Im in the same boat that MAF is not my number one target . I do agree however that he would be a large upgrade over what we have had since Kipper left.

My concerns over MAF is a tendency to crumble under pressure, but he is still the main reason they were even close to playoff spot when Sullivan took over.

 

I do believe tho that different teams and styles, can affect an individual goaltender and his stats.  just so happens MAF has a style that fits this team. he does make 2nd a 3rd saves , rarely gives up a first shot goal. I could be confident his stats would translate favorably to the Flames.He plays a similar style to Carey Price  (and before anyone jumps on me, yes , Price plays it better )Athletic yet positionally sound, able to make quick decisions and actions.

 

if your defense is prone to bad plays, high scoring chances and basically hanging the goalie out to dry , then it wont matter who's back there

 

My primary hesitations to MAF are his age, his contract , and the fact we have no out.. he Must be protected in the expansion draft,if the marriage DOES fail, we have a pretty hefty albatross hanging there.If we trade for him he likely IS our goalie or the next 3 years

 

There ARE goalies i believe tho that would not keep their same stats coming here , for example I believe Kuemper would be one.. just my opinion.

[cross16]

I think it is a team game and to suggest otherwise doesn't make sense. A team's D would effect a goalies' performance and vice versa.

Goalies can give players confidence.

I think anyone suggesting we were only 5 wins out and that scoring chances are a small differential between all teams are looking at things with rose coloured glasses.

Our team gets hemmed in so much, give up a lot of high end scoring chances. Ok, so you say it's only a few more. But high end scoring chances have extreme likelihood of scoring. You give up as many as we do then a good to great goalie can only do so much.

We have good pieces. Hopefully it is just a coaching philosophy. The way we played the year we went to the playoffs was not sustainable and it was proven last year. We had the 5th worst record and a better goalie would still have gotten us to just outside the playoffs looking in. Instead of Drafting 5th (6th) we would have been in the 10th to 13th range. Ok, that's an improvement and where I think we will draft next year with a better goalie unless there is more roster change or a prospect steps up.

A poor team, like the flames, will give up about 11 high danger scoring chances against per game in average. A good team in the 8s. If you look at goals against across the league the flames the worst at 3.13 and good teams low 2s. So using that math a team converts a high danger scoring chance to a goal probably less than 25% of the time. Because those numbers are 5 on 5 and th GAA numbers are all situations the math is less. So I don't agree that a high danger scoring chance has a high likelihood of being a goal.

Again I am not saying whatsoever it is not a team game. It is and I want to see the flames team defence improve and I believe they can with a new coach and a modern system. What I am saying is that good goalies, namely good starters, are good goalies regardless of their team and this belief that a very good goalies will come here and be barely avg or below is ridiculous. Sure goalie stats can change from team to team but not drastically, not for startes. The big swing you see in goalies is basically always backups that people think are starters and they are not and that I think has nor to do with quality of opposition. Backups that put up great stats typically pad them, but it's basically impossible to pad your starts as a starter. Law of averages says thing will balance out if you are playing 50 plus games.

[robrob1974]

if your defense is prone to bad plays, high scoring chances and basically hanging the goalie out to dry , then it wont matter who's back there.

This is what I am saying... But I do agree we need better goaltending. I am not saying don't get a better goalie. I was in Ramo's camp until it became evident he wasn't going to fix cheating off the post.

Ortio was very low on my list but has changed my mind a very little bit and if he is dialled in he can perform decently. Is that a goalie coaching thing keeping the goalie ready regardless of how many starts, or is that an on him thing? Mostly him of course...

I think they have some tools...

But I just don't know who is going to do well under our current team because we are prone to giving up high scoring chances. Once we fix that, the goaltending will get better too. BUT! Both need fixing.

[phoenix66]

This is what I am saying... But I do agree we need better goaltending. I am not saying don't get a better goalie. I was in Ramo's camp until it became evident he wasn't going to fix cheating off the post.

 

 

when he got better is when Sigalet worked with him on that .

 

I read a great article a while back , wish i could find it again . It basically talked about what separates Good goalies from Elite Goalies, is that Good ones track the puck, Elites track the players.  They react and read the players body position , hand position etc, as to knowing where they intend to move the puck. Much like a good hitter in baseball reads the pitcher to know whether hes getting a fastball, curveball, etc.. because if you are simply reacting to the shot / pitch by the time you react its over.

They teach it early and often in Europe (like Finland especially .. surprise surprise)

 

Goalies these days cant just rely on angles and positioning , with the speed they need to be able to anticipate where that puck is going .

Great scorers on the other hand, know how to give bad signals.

Im curious what techniques Sigalet uses, there has to be a reason why certain coaches get more out of a goalie than others.

 

I recall a segment on Sean Burke back when he was playing and the exercises he did .. he was doing something similar , and probably no coincidence  as a coach hes one of the best

[MAC331]

This is what I am saying... But I do agree we need better goaltending. I am not saying don't get a better goalie. I was in Ramo's camp until it became evident he wasn't going to fix cheating off the post.

Ortio was very low on my list but has changed my mind a very little bit and if he is dialled in he can perform decently. Is that a goalie coaching thing keeping the goalie ready regardless of how many starts, or is that an on him thing? Mostly him of course...

I think they have some tools...

But I just don't know who is going to do well under our current team because we are prone to giving up high scoring chances. Once we fix that, the goaltending will get better too. BUT! Both need fixing.

What are you basing that on ? overall statistics ? I thought the defense that was remaining at the end was functioning very well, exit Russell and Wideman. I thought Jokipakka stood out with using his reach and size very well to his advantage and should only get better with experience. Wotherspoon also impressed me, he played with a mature approach and some confidence. Nakaladal was steady as well. I quite like the options we have for defense heading into this year.

[robrob1974]

What are you basing that on ? overall statistics ? I thought the defense that was remaining at the end was functioning very well, exit Russell and Wideman. I thought Jokipakka stood out with using his reach and size very well to his advantage and should only get better with experience. Wotherspoon also impressed me, he played with a mature approach and some confidence. Nakaladal was steady as well. I quite like the options we have for defense heading into this year.

I think that's it, we will see if it translates. There was a lot talked about games that matter more and how much harder they are to win in the clutch of a playoff push. The pressures are different and in the last 15 games or so, we could've played better because the games weren't as intense, like the argument of players getting points when it doesn't matter. That could've put us a few more points higher and making it seem we were only 10points out of a spot.

Ideally, it translates and we are in the thick of a push until the end next year. I hope we get a coach that pushes puck movement and possession. The way Pittsburgh won is how I want to see our teams for years to come. Get the puck out, push it up ice, attack and cycle. A Good offense is a better defense.

That still doesn't mean giving up A1 chances.

[kehatch]

Andersen is another very reasonable target for the Flames. One has to wonder though if the Flames acquiring Andersen would mean the end of Ortio. The vibe from one of the Treliving interviews was that they would be okay with Ortio if paid with an experienced starter, but not in a tandem. Andersen has never carried a heavy workload.

[irock19]

The guys on Fan 960 said yesterday that they figure Wideman and a second rounder would fetch Andre-Fleury. Hopefully they're right.

Andersen is another very reasonable target for the Flames. One has to wonder though if the Flames acquiring Andersen would mean the end of Ortio. The vibe from one of the Treliving interviews was that they would be okay with Ortio if paid with an experienced starter, but not in a tandem. Andersen has never carried a heavy workload.

Anderson is only 26 years old he would have at least 8 years ahead of him as a starter. That would frustrate Gilles? But competition brings out the best in people. Flames should pursue a 30 something goalie I think? You're right on Andersons work load. Which can wear on a goalie if he's not used to it. Or proved that he can handle 60 plus games.

[irock19]

Wish we still had Kipper and he was still 28 years old. It makes you think about other goalies like kipper that are buried on other teams depth chart that just need a shot? Still trying to figure out how Daryl Sutter new that and no one else did? Not even SanJose knew what they had in Kipper. Cam ward? I don't think anyone knows what Ron Francis is trying to do now a days though?

[kehatch]

The guys on Fan 960 said yesterday that they figure Wideman and a second rounder would fetch Andre-Fleury. Hopefully they're right.

Anderson is only 26 years old he would have at least 8 years ahead of him as a starter. That would frustrate Gilles? But competition brings out the best in people. Flames should pursue a 30 something goalie I think? You're right on Andersons work load. Which can wear on a goalie if he's not used to it. Or proved that he can handle 60 plus games.

 

I doubt it on Fleury.  Pittsburgh can't afford to take back salary.  Maybe with the Flames taking salary, but I think a low cost salary dump is the most likely scenario.  

 

On Andersen, I don't think you can worry about Gilles yet.  An established goalie won't prevent Gilles from getting his start.  My concerns about Andersen are the price to acquire, the price to sign him, and his talent level in general.  Looking at just the stat sheet he looks like a decent enough goalie.  But watching him play and looking at the number of starts he gets I have to wonder how good of a starter he will be.  

 

Don't get me wrong.  I like Andersen and would be happy if the Flames got him for the right price.  But if you are talking about big assets to acquire him and a 5+ million contract with term to sign him I start to get a little worried.  Fleury should be cheap to acquire and only has 3-years under contract and we know he can carry a starter load.  

[irock19]

You bring up a lot of fair issues with Andersen. Hard to tell if he could be the guy. Lots of unknowns.

[jjgallow]

I think people really overrate how much impact a team can make on a goalie. I've sid this before, but when you read this board you'd swear the Flames defence is literally the worst defence the league has ever seen and apparently no goalie is every going to play well in from it and quite frankily, its the silliest argument that floats around here.

 

Unfortunately we lost what was a fantastic resource in War on ice that tracked scoring chances so I have to go by memory here but I looked at it so much I'm pretty confident this data is right. If someone has another website they use to track scoring chances please let me know.

 

"I just think this argument that we shouldn't acquire goalies ...."

 

cross, if you spent a little less time embelishing the truth and making up quotes/opinions that were never written/said, it would go a long ways towards curtailing arguements that maybe never needed to happen.

 

The time you then spend countering those fake quotes, opinions, which nobody said, could also be spent having discussions about actual real opinions.  or, walking your dog, or, spending some time with your significant other.

 

Now with regards to War on ice, it's not gone yet, if you take advantage of Google Cache.

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gDFq0rgoj8EJ:war-on-ice.com/teamtable.html+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

 

Go nuts, you're welcome.   

 

p.s...obviously open to interpretation.  If you ask me, the stats are roughly telling us that the Flames are, defensively, about the same where we're drafting.  6th worst in the league, or so.    Then the good offense, and bad goaltending, kind of cancel each other out.

 

Nobody's saying we don't need to address goaltending.  And when you make those claims, the only one being ridiculous is you.

[AlbertaBoy12]

cross, if you spent a little less time embelishing the truth and making up quotes/opinions that were never written/said, it would go a long ways towards curtailing arguements that maybe never needed to happen.

 

The time you then spend countering those fake quotes, opinions, which nobody said, could also be spent having discussions about actual real opinions.  or, walking your dog, or, spending some time with your significant other.

 

Now with regards to War on ice, it's not gone yet, if you take advantage of Google Cache.

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gDFq0rgoj8EJ:war-on-ice.com/teamtable.html+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

 

Go nuts, you're welcome.   

 

p.s...obviously open to interpretation.  If you ask me, the stats are roughly telling us that the Flames are, defensively, about the same where we're drafting.  6th worst in the league, or so.    Then the good offense, and bad goaltending, kind of cancel each other out.

 

Nobody's saying we don't need to address goaltending.  And when you make those claims, the only one being ridiculous is you.

Defense and goaltending go hand in hand. But at the same time I would agree with cross that we dont have the worst defense in the league or 6th worst as you suggest. We had bad goaltending that was made just that much worse by the bad system we played in front of said goaltending. 

 

But JJ id love to hear what you think we should do to fix this team defensively. 

[irock19]

I get what your saying Cross but the only team in the NHL with sub par goaltending that won consistently is Detroit. How they do it every year since Vernon (My kid beat out his son for AAA midget this year then my kid got hurt so Matt Vernon got to play at the Macs) Is beyond me! Every pro team does need a strong goalie though to have a chance. Just like your saying.

[MAC331]

I doubt it on Fleury.  Pittsburgh can't afford to take back salary.  Maybe with the Flames taking salary, but I think a low cost salary dump is the most likely scenario.  

 

On Andersen, I don't think you can worry about Gilles yet.  An established goalie won't prevent Gilles from getting his start.  My concerns about Andersen are the price to acquire, the price to sign him, and his talent level in general.  Looking at just the stat sheet he looks like a decent enough goalie.  But watching him play and looking at the number of starts he gets I have to wonder how good of a starter he will be.  

 

Don't get me wrong.  I like Andersen and would be happy if the Flames got him for the right price.  But if you are talking about big assets to acquire him and a 5+ million contract with term to sign him I start to get a little worried.  Fleury should be cheap to acquire and only has 3-years under contract and we know he can carry a starter load.  

Give them back Agostino and a 3rd, we take him on at full salary.

[irock19]

Give them back Agostino and a 3rd, we take him on at full salary.

What a burn that deal was for Iggy.

[cross16]

cross, if you spent a little less time embelishing the truth and making up quotes/opinions that were never written/said, it would go a long ways towards curtailing arguements that maybe never needed to happen.

The time you then spend countering those fake quotes, opinions, which nobody said, could also be spent having discussions about actual real opinions. or, walking your dog, or, spending some time with your significant other.

Now with regards to War on ice, it's not gone yet, if you take advantage of Google Cache.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gDFq0rgoj8EJ:war-on-ice.com/teamtable.html+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Go nuts, you're welcome.

p.s...obviously open to interpretation. If you ask me, the stats are roughly telling us that the Flames are, defensively, about the same where we're drafting. 6th worst in the league, or so. Then the good offense, and bad goaltending, kind of cancel each other out.

Nobody's saying we don't need to address goaltending. And when you make those claims, the only one being ridiculous is you.

That is not what I said or meant and had you looked at the whole paragraph and not cherry picked half a sentences feel like you would understand that.

I'll give you this what I meant to say is the argument that we should not acquire CERTAIN goalies based on the idea that they won't perform here doesn't hold weight when you look at the stats. Thanks for posting that because turns out all my numbers were accurate.

[irock19]

So you post only part of the sentence to misrepresent what I'm saying but yet accuse me of spreading false quotes. Nice work there JJ.

I'll give you this what I meant to say is the argument that we should not acquire CERTAIN goalies based on the idea that they won't perform here doesn't hold weight when you look at the stats. Thanks for posting that because turns out all my numbers were accurate.

Not sure why people get so worked up over some else's point of view? If you don't like their opinions then just don't reply. Simple. No need to get argumentative in a bad way.

[jjgallow]

 No need to get argumentative in a bad way.

 

It's just what we do

[irock19]

It's just what we do

Lol!! Evidently:)

[jjgallow]

That is not what I said or meant and had you looked at the whole paragraph and not cherry picked half a sentences feel like you would understand that.

 

I believe it's not what you meant, but it IS what you said.   And stripping partial sentences out is just a necessity on here to make the posts readable, nothing more.

I'll give you this what I meant to say is the argument that we should not acquire CERTAIN goalies based on the idea that they won't perform here doesn't hold weight when you look at the stats.

 

OK.  Fair enough.  Well, my harsh rejection to MAF, is that his numbers were generated via the polar opposite.  A great, defensive environment with excellent possession.   The difference between the two teams is too great not to consider, imho.   I do not hold that opinion on ever goalie.  Or on every team.  Glad we at least clarified the disagreement.

 

Thanks for posting that

 

You're welcome

 

because turns out all my numbers were accurate.

 

I know.   Your numbers always are.   That doesn't mean your interpretation is.