Goaltending

[phoenix66]

I was just basing it on Ramo probably wanting to stay in NA.  If it was a one-year deal, it at least makes it more likely that he gets back into the NHL.  Going to Europe would kill that chance.  He likely wouldn't sign for $1m+, but there are going to be a lot of goalies out there vying for positions.  The offers may not be there, especially if he isn't even on the ice until October.

Ramo will be in the NHL next season, where will depend on who our target is.

In terms of targets, ill probably take some heat for this, but the semi final showed me that Vasilevsky is not ready.

Now, he played well, even very well, but didnt rise to the level he needed to. When left hung out to dry he didnt slam the door. At least 2 of his 4 losses were stealable. Game 7 especially.

Now he will get better, no doubt. Just saying uf he IS our target he will need veteran support at first.but I still believe tampa wont be trading him.

Speaking again of targets, aside from the much debated sexy ones, theres a good chance our current target is currently under the radar.

Who could we be overlooking that hasnt been mentioned?

Markstrom in Vancouver could be one target. Vancouver has no issues trading with us, and just gave up their second rounders,

[cccsberg]

Ramo will be in the NHL next season, where will depend on who our target is.

In terms of targets, ill probably take some heat for this, but the semi final showed me that Vasilevsky is not ready.

Now, he played well, even very well, but didnt rise to the level he needed to. When left hung out to dry he didnt slam the door. At least 2 of his 4 losses were stealable. Game 7 especially.

Now he will get better, no doubt. Just saying uf he IS our target he will need veteran support at first.but I still believe tampa wont be trading him.

Speaking again of targets, aside from the much debated sexy ones, theres a good chance our current target is currently under the radar.

Who could we be overlooking that hasnt been mentioned?

Markstrom in Vancouver could be one target. Vancouver has no issues trading with us, and just gave up their second rounders,

Agree with you that Vasilevsky showed some growing pains this playoffs, while still playing very well overall.  I would say the same for Matt Murray with Pittsburg.  In fact, there hasn't been ANY goalie this playoffs who has been lights out through and through.  I would probably say Jones w/SJS has been the best, but even he has had a couple of off games.  What has separated the top tier from the rest is their ability to rebound, their resilience to adversity.  We need to find that guy.

[phoenix66]

Agree with you that Vasilevsky showed some growing pains this playoffs, while still playing very well overall.  I would say the same for Matt Murray with Pittsburg.  In fact, there hasn't been ANY goalie this playoffs who has been lights out through and through.  I would probably say Jones w/SJS has been the best, but even he has had a couple of off games.  What has separated the top tier from the rest is their ability to rebound, their resilience to adversity.  We need to find that guy.

Oh totally, and again im really not slamming Vasilevsky..just that he didnt show that game stealing ability. Murray had some rough spots forsure, but hes absolutely shown an aability to project as elite. He not only stole games, I'm pretty sure hes also stolen Fleurys job

[jjgallow]

Oh totally, and again im really not slamming Vasilevsky..just that he didnt show that game stealing ability. Murray had some rough spots forsure, but hes absolutely shown an aability to project as elite. He not only stole games, I'm pretty sure hes also stolen Fleurys job

 

It's Really nice to see discussion on here about what discussion should be about...it took a while for all the nonsense to be filtered out

 

Young goalies that have their best years ahead of them.   That's really the only thing that should be discussed with a rebuilding team like this.   Not that I expect either to be available.

 

Vasilevsky is just as good as Murray, imho.   The biggest advantage Murray has, imho, is that he's a Year older, the team he's on, and the experience he's getting right now, which will likely catapult his development.

 

Keeping in mind that Vasilevsky is a year younger, he is actually further along in his development curve than Murray was a year ago.   So while....yes.....Murray has already become the talk of the NHL, Vasilevsky is no slouch.   And the only one, of the two, that might possibly become available.

 

What we should be targetting, imho, is the next Vasilevsky.  The next Murray.    We likely can't afford either of them.   But by accepting a certain amount of risk, we can afford to acquire the same calibre at just a Slightly earlier stage of development (one year).

[phoenix66]

It's Really nice to see discussion on here about what discussion should be about...it took a while for all the nonsense to be filtered out

 

Young goalies that have their best years ahead of them.   That's really the only thing that should be discussed with a rebuilding team like this.   Not that I expect either to be available.

 

Vasilevsky is just as good as Murray, imho.   The biggest advantage Murray has, imho, is that he's a Year older, the team he's on, and the experience he's getting right now, which will likely catapult his development.

 

Keeping in mind that Vasilevsky is a year younger, he is actually further along in his development curve than Murray was a year ago.   So while....yes.....Murray has already become the talk of the NHL, Vasilevsky is no slouch.   And the only one, of the two, that might possibly become available.

 

What we should be targetting, imho, is the next Vasilevsky.  The next Murray.    We likely can't afford either of them.   But by accepting a certain amount of risk, we can afford to acquire the same calibre at just a Slightly earlier stage of development (one year).

Thanks!

I agree Vasilevsky still has not hit his ceiling, but Murray is actually only 2 months older. Vasilevsky was the the 1st round pick tho. , murray was a late 3rd

Agreed in targets, I cant recall any names but I remember reading that St Louis has a pretty goid pipeline right now.. same with Boston, tho for some reason Subban doesnt appeal to me.

We could potentially pry Fucale out of Montreal

[travel_dude]

It's Really nice to see discussion on here about what discussion should be about...it took a while for all the nonsense to be filtered out

 

Young goalies that have their best years ahead of them.   That's really the only thing that should be discussed with a rebuilding team like this.   Not that I expect either to be available.

 

Vasilevsky is just as good as Murray, imho.   The biggest advantage Murray has, imho, is that he's a Year older, the team he's on, and the experience he's getting right now, which will likely catapult his development.

 

Keeping in mind that Vasilevsky is a year younger, he is actually further along in his development curve than Murray was a year ago.   So while....yes.....Murray has already become the talk of the NHL, Vasilevsky is no slouch.   And the only one, of the two, that might possibly become available.

 

What we should be targetting, imho, is the next Vasilevsky.  The next Murray.    We likely can't afford either of them.   But by accepting a certain amount of risk, we can afford to acquire the same calibre at just a Slightly earlier stage of development (one year).

 

Who is that?  Ortio?  

 

Who do you think is the next Murray out there that is actually available?  Fucale?  He doesn't seem to be any better right now than Ortio or MacDonald.  Years away from the NHL.  And you are thinking this is a NHL ready player?

 

If you are going with a unknown quantity, then you better be picking up a starter at the same time.  Develop the prospect for years.

I would be on board with Vasilevskiy or Murray, because they both have NHL proven experience and played games at the highest level.  Anything less than that better be a backup for the Flames.

[jjgallow]

Who is that?  Ortio?  

 

Who do you think is the next Murray out there that is actually available?  Fucale?  He doesn't seem to be any better right now than Ortio or MacDonald.  Years away from the NHL.  And you are thinking this is a NHL ready player?

 

If you are going with a unknown quantity, then you better be picking up a starter at the same time.  Develop the prospect for years.

I would be on board with Vasilevskiy or Murray, because they both have NHL proven experience and played games at the highest level.  Anything less than that better be a backup for the Flames.

 

I actually can't even believe you have the tenacity to post on here again, good for you

 

I may answer those questions later when I have, but not in that context and not on those terms.   From what I'm seeing in the playoffs right now, your arguement doesn't have the credibility or logic to warrant a response.

[phoenix66]

Who is that?  Ortio?  

 

Who do you think is the next Murray out there that is actually available?  Fucale?  He doesn't seem to be any better right now than Ortio or MacDonald.  Years away from the NHL.  And you are thinking this is a NHL ready player?

 

If you are going with a unknown quantity, then you better be picking up a starter at the same time.  Develop the prospect for years.

I would be on board with Vasilevskiy or Murray, because they both have NHL proven experience and played games at the highest level.  Anything less than that better be a backup for the Flames.

 

 

We didnt even know Matt Murray was the next Matt Murray , until this year. he had 13 games of reg season experience.

heres a few names to target , Anton Forsberg, Jared Coreau, .. 2 of the best AHL goalies right  now

 

and youre right .. we still need a starter, but i contend that even Vasilevsky isnt ready to be a starter either

[redfire11]

I am on board with giving Ramo another 1 year deal.

His injury time line brings him back Aug. to Oct. just in time for opening season.

I believe he has elite qualities that with the right coach and work on our defense becomes our go to guy.

Ortio can start the season with Ramo as back up until he can get back to form.

 

With money tight the last thing I want to see is another Hillier type pickup.

I could see BT picking up or drafting an elite goalie prospect to nurture.

If we can get a coach that works on our defense I will have total faith in the Ramo/Ortio duo.

[cross16]

I think if you watched Vasilevsky in the playoffs and are drawing the conclusion he isn't ready to start then your expectations for what a starting goalie is in the NHL are off. A 21 year old goalie have his team a chance to win every single net where they were outplayed 60% of the time. Did he steal a game no but at 21 how many young goalies do what he did let alone steal games? I'm not convinced Vasilevky is a too end starter either long term, but if you look at his performance and say that's not good enough your expectations are too high.

It would be great for the flames to develop the next Murray, Vasilevky but the reality is acquiring them is going to be very unlikely. If a team has a top goalie prospect they don't tend to move them so if you want the next gojng goalie I would looked to develop Gilles and McDonald not trying to throw darts around via trade.

Matt Murray has been elite on the AHL for a few years now. What he is doing should not be a surprise IMO. Goalies don't tend to come out of nowhere at his age.

[phoenix66]

I am on board with giving Ramo another 1 year deal.

His injury time line brings him back Aug. to Oct. just in time for opening season.

I believe he has elite qualities that with the right coach and work on our defense becomes our go to guy.

Ortio can start the season with Ramo as back up until he can get back to form.

 

With money tight the last thing I want to see is another Hillier type pickup.

I could see BT picking up or drafting an elite goalie prospect to nurture.

If we can get a coach that works on our defense I will have total faith in the Ramo/Ortio duo.

 

 

yep, i still firmly believe we have not seen the  last of Ramo..whether he tandems with another serious prospect or winds up as backup  .. i agree he ends up with a 1 year deal

[kehatch]

I actually can't even believe you have the tenacity to post on here again, good for you

I may answer those questions later when I have, but not in that context and not on those terms. From what I'm seeing in the playoffs right now, your arguement doesn't have the credibility or logic to warrant a response.

You keep saying that as if it proves your theory of going into next season without veteran support. Yet you consistently ignore the fact that Murray played with Fleury and Valeisky played with Bishop.

Nobody at anytime has suggested the Flames shouldn't have youth in net. What they have said is that going into next season with an unproven combo of Ortio and some prospect isn't the right thing to do.

The model in Pittsburgh and Tampa (proven veteran / rookie with potential) is exactly what most of us have been advocating for.  You have been against the Flames acquiring a veteran suggesting the Flames should go forward with Ortio and another young unproven prospect. That isn't what happened in Pittsburgh / Tampa and it isn't what resulted in the success in the playoffs.  

[phoenix66]

I think if you watched Vasilevsky in the playoffs and are drawing the conclusion he isn't ready to start then your expectations for what a starting goalie is in the NHL are off. A 21 year old goalie have his team a chance to win every single net where they were outplayed 60% of the time. Did he steal a game no but at 21 how many young goalies do what he did let alone steal games? I'm not convinced Vasilevky is a too end starter either long term, but if you look at his performance and say that's not good enough your expectations are too high.

It would be great for the flames to develop the next Murray, Vasilevky but the reality is acquiring them is going to be very unlikely. If a team has a top goalie prospect they don't tend to move them so if you want the next gojng goalie I would looked to develop Gilles and McDonald not trying to throw darts around via trade.

 

 

i should re-word that .. i dont feel he's ready to be OUR starter. good enough , or a chance to win wont cut it here(by most people's standards)  I've argued the whole time that Ramo gave us a chance to win Most nights, and did steal a few as well. If we do Nab a Vasilevsky , which I'm not against , then we need a Ramo to back him up or tandem him .

 

Now, there will be changes the system , the defense, all the things which  i have said contributed to the bad goalie numbers, but I saw from Vasilevsky all the things people are up in arms on here about ours.. early goals, deflating goals. and he didn't slam the door when his team needed him to most .

 

again , he's young , he will only get better , and he does have the upside to be elite.. but .. if he were on this team last year , he'd be 2nd on the depth chart .. ahead of Ortio, behind Ramo .. we get him , we still need a starter 

[cross16]

i should re-word that .. i dont feel he's ready to be OUR starter. good enough , or a chance to win wont cut it here(by most people's standards) I've argued the whole time that Ramo gave us a chance to win Most nights, and did steal a few as well. If we do Nab a Vasilevsky , which I'm not against , then we need a Ramo to back him up or tandem him .

Now, there will be changes the system , the defense, all the things which i have said contributed to the bad goalie numbers, but I saw from Vasilevsky all the things people are up in arms on here about ours.. early goals, deflating goals. and he didn't slam the door when his team needed him to most .

again , he's young , he will only get better , and he does have the upside to be elite.. but .. if he were on this team last year , he'd be 2nd on the depth chart .. ahead of Ortio, behind Ramo .. we get him , we still need a starter

Fine but I think you are going to disappointed then. Based on what you are saying you are wanting the flames to go out and get a legit elite goalie which I don't think is realistic. I think you either too hard on Vasilevky or your definition of a stater is too high.

Vasilevky gave his team above average starter goalie play so I think we are aiming too high if you think that's not good enough. I get what you are saying about the odd bad goalie but keep in mind that series went 7 games and the pens outplayed the lightning pretty badly in almost every game.

[phoenix66]

Fine but I think you are going to disappointed then. Based on what you are saying you are wanting the flames to go out and get a legit elite goalie which I don't think is realistic. I think you either too hard on Vasilevky or your definition of a stater is too high.

Vasilevky gave his team above average starter goalie play so I think we are aiming too high if you think that's not good enough. I get what you are saying about the odd bad goalie but keep in mind that series went 7 games and the pens outplayed the lightning pretty badly in almost every game.

 

 

I'm realistic, just others are not . I'm all for getting Vasilevsky , i just dont think hes any better than Ramo .. but he's way better than Ortio. I just say if you bring him in , Keep Ramo , and by the end of the year he'll likely take his job

[420since1974]

Whether through FA or trade, I want to see the Flames procure a NHL starting goalie with at least 200 games experience.

 

If they can also find a prospect goalie better than Orito, I'm all for acquiring them as well.

 

I honestly don't care if Orito is even re-signed.

 

What I absolutely do not want to see is Orito sharing the net with another inexperienced prospect goalie for the Flames in 2016/2017.

[Redslinger]

At this point I'd rather have Murray than Vasilevsky, if given the choice.  Murray seemed more poised and calm.  Quite often when Vasilevsky got scored on he'd look flustered.  It didn't really seem to affect his play that much though.  I wouldn't complain if the Flames got Vasilevsky in the offseason, but he wouldn't be my first choice.

[MAC331]

At this point I'd rather have Murray than Vasilevsky, if given the choice.  Murray seemed more poised and calm.  Quite often when Vasilevsky got scored on he'd look flustered.  It didn't really seem to affect his play that much though.  I wouldn't complain if the Flames got Vasilevsky in the offseason, but he wouldn't be my first choice.

We may not get either but I see PIT trying to deal Fleury more so than Murray given the other high priced help on their team. I think it is almost a given that Stamkos will leave TBL which likely allows them to keep Bishop. They have shown to be capable without Stamkos and likely see themselves as contenders again in the East but with Bishop. Vasilevskiy has some growing and experience to gain so why not with the Flames. I just hope we have what it takes to do a deal.

[travel_dude]

At this point I'd rather have Murray than Vasilevsky, if given the choice.  Murray seemed more poised and calm.  Quite often when Vasilevsky got scored on he'd look flustered.  It didn't really seem to affect his play that much though.  I wouldn't complain if the Flames got Vasilevsky in the offseason, but he wouldn't be my first choice.

 

I felt that Vasilevskiy didn't handle the pressure well enough at times.  He would lose focus and give up a squeaker.  Both goalies have holes in their games, though.  The upper part of the net.  

 

As far as NHL goalies that are guaranteed to have decent starter number:

 

Bishop is arguably the best goalie that could be available.  His pending new deal in 2017/18 makes him a costly addition, though. After Bishop, there is Elliott, Allen and Andersen.  

 

If Vasilevskiy (possible) and Murray (unlikely) are available, they will be more expensive than the NHL goalies listed above.  

[cross16]

I still think there is no way Pittsburgh trades Murray. They've held on to him for so many years despite knowing about a potential expansion draft and now that he has taken them yk the finals they move him? Not a chance.

I use to contend that Tampa would likely keep Bishop and trade Vasilevky but I'm less sure now. I'm not as conviced as everyone that stamkos is gone and Friedman made a good point on the radio the other day that Bishop now has been hurt I think 3 years in a row in the playoffs so can you trust him long term and dedicate money to a player that is hurt every year?

Vasilevsky would have been one of my top targets but we'll see if he is made available. I think it makes more sense for the bolts to keep Bishop because I think their window is now but we shall see.

[MAC331]

I still think there is no way Pittsburgh trades Murray. They've held on to him for so many years despite knowing about a potential expansion draft and now that he has taken them yk the finals they move him? Not a chance.

I use to contend that Tampa would likely keep Bishop and trade Vasilevky but I'm less sure now. I'm not as conviced as everyone that stamkos is gone and Friedman made a good point on the radio the other day that Bishop now has been hurt I think 3 years in a row in the playoffs so can you trust him long term and dedicate money to a player that is hurt every year?

Vasilevsky would have been one of my top targets but we'll see if he is made available. I think it makes more sense for the bolts to keep Bishop because I think their window is now but we shall see.

I tend to agree with what you are saying here cross, for all we know Yzerman and Stamkos already have agreed on a deal to stay. It didn't make a lot of sense hanging onto him during all the controversies. Bishop does provide the most experience to keep them in the contender position.

[jjgallow]

I still think there is no way Pittsburgh trades Murray. They've held on to him for so many years despite knowing about a potential expansion draft and now that he has taken them yk the finals they move him? Not a chance.

 

 

It's the...most...obvious conclusion that it is hysterical any other viewpoint is being brought up, but I guess that's the advantage of living in a free nation, lol.

 

Murray has done more for Pittsburgh, without playing a single other game, than Kipper did for the Flames, ever.

 

And at the age of 22.

 

It's a done deal.

[LouCifer]

Didn't see this posted already, so, just yesterday, some Expansion information came to the surface regarding how No Trade and No Movement clauses would be handled. From Sportsnet here:

 

They’ve also worked through how no-movement protection will be handled – with players that have full no-movement clauses required to be included among a team’s list of protected players. There are varying degrees of trade and waiver protection included in standard player contracts, but those with only no-trades can be exposed.

“A trade is a trade, and if you have a no-trade clause it doesn’t mean you can’t be exposed in an expansion draft,” said Daly.

 

In addition:

Another important aspect of the conversation is what happens if a team has too many no-movement clauses and can’t fulfill the specifics outlined in the expansion draft rules. Daly indicated the penalty would be “significant.”

“It’s a loss of draft picks and/or players,” he said.

 

 

Also, the league has dropped the % of team cap that has to be exposed for the draft as well.

 

It was originally contemplated that the total salaries exposed by teams would have to amount to at least 25 per cent of their previous season’s payroll. That has since been dropped.

 

 

To make this relevant in this topic:

M.A.Fleury - Limited NMC (starting July 1, 2010, only prevents being placed on waivers); Limited NTC (can designate a list of teams he will accept a trade to) - from GeneralFanager via Capgeek.

 

The way I read it, since MAF doesn't have a FULL no move clause, Pittsburgh isn't forced to protect him in the event of expansion. Thus, Murray can be protected, and they can "explore" trade options with Fleury if they so desire. 

[cccsberg]

Didn't see this posted already, so, just yesterday, some Expansion information came to the surface regarding how No Trade and No Movement clauses would be handled. From Sportsnet here:

 

They’ve also worked through how no-movement protection will be handled – with players that have full no-movement clauses required to be included among a team’s list of protected players. There are varying degrees of trade and waiver protection included in standard player contracts, but those with only no-trades can be exposed.

“A trade is a trade, and if you have a no-trade clause it doesn’t mean you can’t be exposed in an expansion draft,” said Daly.

 

In addition:

Another important aspect of the conversation is what happens if a team has too many no-movement clauses and can’t fulfill the specifics outlined in the expansion draft rules. Daly indicated the penalty would be “significant.”

“It’s a loss of draft picks and/or players,” he said.

 

 

Also, the league has dropped the % of team cap that has to be exposed for the draft as well.

 

It was originally contemplated that the total salaries exposed by teams would have to amount to at least 25 per cent of their previous season’s payroll. That has since been dropped.

 

 

To make this relevant in this topic:

M.A.Fleury - Limited NMC (starting July 1, 2010, only prevents being placed on waivers); Limited NTC (can designate a list of teams he will accept a trade to) - from GeneralFanager via Capgeek.

 

The way I read it, since MAF doesn't have a FULL no move clause, Pittsburgh isn't forced to protect him in the event of expansion. Thus, Murray can be protected, and they can "explore" trade options with Fleury if they so desire. 

Fleury's contract going forward has a Full NMC, the "Limited" portion only refers to 2010.  Fleury will be the Only goalie protected or traded.  Go back and check your source. The only news on the announcement is the dropping of the 25% Salary inclusion, and that we still have 2-3 weeks before we actually know whether it is going forward or not.

[kehatch]

It's starting to sound like the most likely scenario is that the NHL defers for one year to give Seattle the chance to get their stuff together. Bad news for the Flames. Means more of our players move into unprotected status, delays getting a top 4D for another year, and it limits which goalies will be available this summer.