Goaltending

[Flyerfan52]

.

Why is Ortio too expensive?

Doubtful as his QO is 0.660. It's more that he hasn't proven to be even backup caliber in the NHL after 3 years as a pro.

Going by #s alone he doesn't seem to be that great in the AHL either.

 

It might be he's destined for lower leagues elsewhere. Many players that don't make the grade in the NHL do very well in the Eoro leagues (like Nigel Dawes).

[robrob1974]

Doubtful as his QO is 0.660. It's more that he hasn't proven to be even backup caliber in the NHL after 3 years as a pro.

Going by #s alone he doesn't seem to be that great in the AHL either.

It might be he's destined for lower leagues elsewhere. Many players that don't make the grade in the NHL do very well in the Eoro leagues (like Nigel Dawes).

Didn't Ortio play well in the Euro leagues before he came back this last time?

[kehatch]

.

Why is Ortio too expensive?

I didn't say Ortio is to expensive.

[robrob1974]

I didn't say Ortio is to expensive.

Hahahaha!

I am in the hospital visiting my mom and in a common room with a lot of family talking over each other. I wasn't part of the convos so I was reading the boards and listening at the same time.

I agree he is too inexperienced.

[Flyerfan52]

Didn't Ortio play well in the Euro leagues before he came back this last time?

2.42 & 0.917. Not great IMO but still better than his NA #s

[kehatch]

Hahahaha!

I am in the hospital visiting my mom and in a common room with a lot of family talking over each other. I wasn't part of the convos so I was reading the boards and listening at the same time.

I agree he is too inexperienced.

[robrob1974]

Crappy. Hope all is well!

Thank you Kehatch. It's slowly getting better everyday, so it's good for now. Hoping it stays on that path.

I wish the playoffs were over so we can find out what happens with the goaltending.

[MAC331]

That would be awesome but obviously not realistic. Starting the season with something like Varlamov and Raanta could be realistic though. Or even Varlamov and Ortio if the Flames still see something in him.

I would like to hear which players we have to trade that would get us deal for a goalie such as Varlamov, Kuemper or Anderssen. BT may be better off concentrating on the UFA Goalies.

[kehatch]

I would like to hear which players we have to trade that would get us deal for a goalie such as Varlamov, Kuemper or Anderssen. BT may be better off concentrating on the UFA Goalies.

Reimer and Raanta are two free agents I would consider. But getting a good starter is a priority and it might cost us a bit. That said, I don't think Kuemper is going to be expensive, Varlamov shouldn't be cost prohibitive, and Andersen is a big enough add that a high cost is worth it.

[phoenix66]

Ok, this may be a novel, but I've looked at all the options being floated about, and in taking my own personal biases and favorites out of the equation, figure our tandem next year will be Reimer / Ramo .  This is why :

 

The Flames cannot afford another failed experiment. IF we bring in a "ready to be a starter" guy, it's going to be with protection, and a guy that is so "Wow" with is current team that we cant be faulted for having done it.

 

I'll preface by saying never say never , I mean nobody could have thought BT could snag Dougie last year for what he did , but my reasoning is based on team needs and probability:

 

Not Gonna Happen:

 

Ben Bishop/Vasilevsky:

Cost - Bishop is a UFA after next season , and the price to get a guy who could walk is too high. Also , im sensing TB will not be opening the bank for Stamkos now, meaning they won' t have the desperate cap crunch they are trying to avert.

 

Ryan Murray:

He's not going anywhere. He's solidified his potential with his playoff performance, if anything he's just made MAF expendable, and we do not want him

 

Darcy Kuemper:

First you will need to pry his rights from a Team rival, also he's too Boom or Bust potential . He  hasn't shown he's a dominant cant miss starter. BT is going to bring in someone we know is the starter or cant miss. This has the potential to be a failed experiment which the Flames can't risk

 

Elliot / Allen :

 Looked like a great option at first, but then realized they are both FA end of next season. Both goalies are 2.5M and an excellent tandem . St Louis has currently no need to break this up and will not even have to worry about Expansion before they have to make a decision . Likely one may be moved at the TDL but thats too late to solve our issues

 

Neuvirth:

I salivate at the possibility , but he's 1.6M for another season , and again with the playoff showing , I think Philly keeps him over , or with Mason  they'd be silly to move him .. and we don't want Mason

 

Varlamov:

Sorry, i just dont see why Colorado does this . he's their #1- Pickard is not ready to be the workhorse. he's signed for something like 4 more years. Again , could be proven wrong but dont see it even being a conversation , and if it is, Av's will want more than we are willing to give for it

 

Frederik Andersen:

Yes, I put him on this list .. I truly hope I am wrong because I think he will be at the top of BT's wish list. BUT, on the one hand , he's RFA, meaning you trade for his rights which historically is cheaper than if he was not . The wild card is Toronto. i think they will be also hot on his trail.  Given the choice, and including the fact Toronto has more to give than we do, I believe Anaheim ships him as far away as possible, not to a Division rival. We would likely have to seriously pay to get him . Just like Edmonton offered more than NJ for Schneider and he got shipped to the east. The only way I see this happening is if we Dallas's first rounder and combine it with our 2nd And a prospect. But Toronto has the ammo to outbid us even there and likely don't have to give as much as we do

Again , PLEASE BT, prove me wrong .

 

 

Likely /Realistic Options

 

James Reimer:

He's Young , He's ready. He only costs us money .

He has proven to be able to put up good numbers with a very bad team,facing multiple good scoring chances , just as he may face here. He has a History with Burke and knows he will be the guy here, unlike the TO experience where he just couldn't get the vote of confidence.

Problem is , 37 games is the most he has ever played in a season . Can he handle more?.. not sure but we have to pair him with someone capable of 35-40 games if necessary 

 

Ramo:

Unless we hit a home run with a Goalie that is obvious #1 and has proven to handle a workload, I see us resigning Ramo as a tandem. BT has shown the ability to make the cap work so I ignore the possible numbers. This also gives us an out for the expansion draft as well. His status to start the year will likely give us a price break as well as predicate the need to resign Ortio as well.

Before the end of the season one of Ramo/Reimer will be moved.

 

Ortio

He's our prospect, we control him . he will be resigned. he has shown he has at least earned the right in the organization to battle for (at this time) the backup role. If Ramo is in the tandem then Ortio gets moved or sent to the farm, Sorry. OR he outplays Ramo and gets Ramo moved. High likelihood that Ramo starts the season on IR or rehab/ conditioning so we need that C option 

 

Ranta:

I totally see us being in on him. His numbers have been great , albeit for great teams. He currently makes less than 1M, as a UFA i don't see him getting starting $. He's an excellent 1B/backup option, and moveable if he cant hold down a top 2 job

 

 

Again , stranger things have happened , but this is how i see it playing out. If i could have a pick,  Id want , in this order(excluding what i view as pipe dream not happening):

 

Anderson

Elliot

Neuvirth

Bishop

Reimer

 

But realistically I see our tandem as Reimer/ Ramo  with Ortio fighting  Ranta in the #3 spot

[DirtyDeeds]

Ok, this may be a novel, but I've looked at all the options being floated about, and in taking my own personal biases and favorites out of the equation, figure our tandem next year will be Reimer / Ramo .  This is why :

 

The Flames cannot afford another failed experiment. IF we bring in a "ready to be a starter" guy, it's going to be with protection, and a guy that is so "Wow" with is current team that we cant be faulted for having done it.

 

I'll preface by saying never say never , I mean nobody could have thought BT could snag Dougie last year for what he did , but my reasoning is based on team needs and probability:

 

Not Gonna Happen:

 

Ben Bishop/Vasilevsky:

Cost - Bishop is a UFA after next season , and the price to get a guy who could walk is too high. Also , im sensing TB will not be opening the bank for Stamkos now, meaning they won' t have the desperate cap crunch they are trying to avert.

 

Ryan Murray:

He's not going anywhere. He's solidified his potential with his playoff performance, if anything he's just made MAF expendable, and we do not want him

 

Darcy Kuemper:

First you will need to pry his rights from a Team rival, also he's too Boom or Bust potential . He  hasn't shown he's a dominant cant miss starter. BT is going to bring in someone we know is the starter or cant miss. This has the potential to be a failed experiment which the Flames can't risk

 

Elliot / Allen :

 Looked like a great option at first, but then realized they are both FA end of next season. Both goalies are 2.5M and an excellent tandem . St Louis has currently no need to break this up and will not even have to worry about Expansion before they have to make a decision . Likely one may be moved at the TDL but thats too late to solve our issues

 

Neuvirth:

I salivate at the possibility , but he's 1.6M for another season , and again with the playoff showing , I think Philly keeps him over , or with Mason  they'd be silly to move him .. and we don't want Mason

 

Varlamov:

Sorry, i just dont see why Colorado does this . he's their #1- Pickard is not ready to be the workhorse. he's signed for something like 4 more years. Again , could be proven wrong but dont see it even being a conversation , and if it is, Av's will want more than we are willing to give for it

 

Frederik Andersen:

Yes, I put him on this list .. I truly hope I am wrong because I think he will be at the top of BT's wish list. BUT, on the one hand , he's RFA, meaning you trade for his rights which historically is cheaper than if he was not . The wild card is Toronto. i think they will be also hot on his trail.  Given the choice, and including the fact Toronto has more to give than we do, I believe Anaheim ships him as far away as possible, not to a Division rival. We would likely have to seriously pay to get him . Just like Edmonton offered more than NJ for Schneider and he got shipped to the east. The only way I see this happening is if we Dallas's first rounder and combine it with our 2nd And a prospect. But Toronto has the ammo to outbid us even there and likely don't have to give as much as we do

Again , PLEASE BT, prove me wrong .

 

 

Likely /Realistic Options

 

James Reimer:

He's Young , He's ready. He only costs us money .

He has proven to be able to put up good numbers with a very bad team,facing multiple good scoring chances , just as he may face here. He has a History with Burke and knows he will be the guy here, unlike the TO experience where he just couldn't get the vote of confidence.

Problem is , 37 games is the most he has ever played in a season . Can he handle more?.. not sure but we have to pair him with someone capable of 35-40 games if necessary 

 

Ramo:

Unless we hit a home run with a Goalie that is obvious #1 and has proven to handle a workload, I see us resigning Ramo as a tandem. BT has shown the ability to make the cap work so I ignore the possible numbers. This also gives us an out for the expansion draft as well. His status to start the year will likely give us a price break as well as predicate the need to resign Ortio as well.

Before the end of the season one of Ramo/Reimer will be moved.

 

Ortio

He's our prospect, we control him . he will be resigned. he has shown he has at least earned the right in the organization to battle for (at this time) the backup role. If Ramo is in the tandem then Ortio gets moved or sent to the farm, Sorry. OR he outplays Ramo and gets Ramo moved. High likelihood that Ramo starts the season on IR or rehab/ conditioning so we need that C option 

 

Ranta:

I totally see us being in on him. His numbers have been great , albeit for great teams. He currently makes less than 1M, as a UFA i don't see him getting starting $. He's an excellent 1B/backup option, and moveable if he cant hold down a top 2 job

 

 

Again , stranger things have happened , but this is how i see it playing out. If i could have a pick,  Id want , in this order(excluding what i view as pipe dream not happening):

 

Anderson

Elliot

Neuvirth

Bishop

Reimer

 

But realistically I see our tandem as Reimer/ Ramo  with Ortio fighting  Ranta in the #3 spot

Why do you present the UFA's on your list(like Bishop) as an undesirable target because they might walk? This is the exact opposite way you should look at it, or how BT should look at them.

Of course they should find out if a possible goaltender might want to walk, or not want to stay with the Flames first, but the Flames are not the Oilers in that they are a desirable place to play especially if the #1 slot is open in goal.

 

It is rare any player has not signed with Flames for even moderate term when we have traded for them. Cammy is the last one I remember who walked and it was a money thing not an willingness to play in Calgary.

 

I think/hope the Flames will go after a long term #1, best available and I hope BT won't settle for a middle of the pack goalie, just to get by. That would eliminate half your list or more unless they plan on bringing in 2 goaltenders to compete.

 

On a side note: I don't think the present goalies in the system should gather any consideration for our #1 spot at this time. I am of the opinion they can try to sign Ramo or Ortio to small show me contracts and let them compete for backup. As for the other goalies in the system, well if and when they are ready to challenge then give them a cup of coffee or two but until they are able to outshine our #1(assumes we find the right #1) then this is a great situation for the Flames to have the 2 competent goalies as 1A/1B.

[phoenix66]

Why do you present the UFA's on your list(like Bishop) as an undesirable target because they might walk? This is the exact opposite way you should look at it, or how BT should look at them.

Of course they should find out if a possible goaltender might want to walk, or not want to stay with the Flames first, but the Flames are not the Oilers in that they are a desirable place to play especially if the #1 slot is open in goal.

 

It is rare any player has not signed with Flames for even moderate term when we have traded for them. Cammy is the last one I remember who walked and it was a money thing not an willingness to play in Calgary.

 

I think/hope the Flames will go after a long term #1, best available and I hope BT won't settle for a middle of the pack goalie, just to get by. That would eliminate half your list or more unless they plan on bringing in 2 goaltenders to compete.

 

On a side note: I don't think the present goalies in the system should gather any consideration for our #1 spot at this time. I am of the opinion they can try to sign Ramo or Ortio to small show me contracts and let them compete for backup. As for the other goalies in the system, well if and when they are ready to challenge then give them a cup of coffee or two but until they are able to outshine our #1(assumes we find the right #1) then this is a great situation for the Flames to have the 2 competent goalies as 1A/1B.

 

 

Because a player still under contract will get top return. Bishop, realistically , assuming that Tampa is even wiling to deal him, will likely take a 1st rounder, and a top prospect. So hypothetically you're wiling to give up next years 1st rounder, and, say  Kilmchuk, Kyllington or Shinkaruk to get him ?.. or very realistically since hes gonna want a long term deal, Gillies?..be my guest 

He will also want a long term deal with , in all likelihood a 7-8M cap hit 

Also, his status of a UFA works to Tampas benefit.. they dont have to trade a goalie in the possibility of an expansion draft. They only have to protect Vasilivsky

sure I'd love to have him, just too many factors that say it wont happen is all im Saying 

 

Also , every goaltender I have listed from outside the organization is a long term option , and in my analysis I have our current Ramo/Ortio no better than backup or 1B

My initial list isn't players we shouldn't try on , outside of Kuemper Id be overjoyed with just about any of them , im just saying why they likely won't be attainable. Of Course BT should kick all the tires, I'd suspect he calls 29 teams inquiring whats on the table

[kehatch]

Why do you present the UFA's on your list(like Bishop) as an undesirable target because they might walk? This is the exact opposite way you should look at it, or how BT should look at them.

Of course they should find out if a possible goaltender might want to walk, or not want to stay with the Flames first, but the Flames are not the Oilers in that they are a desirable place to play especially if the #1 slot is open in goal.

 

It is rare any player has not signed with Flames for even moderate term when we have traded for them. Cammy is the last one I remember who walked and it was a money thing not an willingness to play in Calgary.

 

I think/hope the Flames will go after a long term #1, best available and I hope BT won't settle for a middle of the pack goalie, just to get by. That would eliminate half your list or more unless they plan on bringing in 2 goaltenders to compete.

 

On a side note: I don't think the present goalies in the system should gather any consideration for our #1 spot at this time. I am of the opinion they can try to sign Ramo or Ortio to small show me contracts and let them compete for backup. As for the other goalies in the system, well if and when they are ready to challenge then give them a cup of coffee or two but until they are able to outshine our #1(assumes we find the right #1) then this is a great situation for the Flames to have the 2 competent goalies as 1A/1B.

 

Bishop will be expensive.  So I understand that there may be a limited appetite to give up significant assets for a player that could walk away in a year.  But I tend to agree with you.  The Flames should be able to sign the player to an extension.  Unless there is an indication the player will walk I don't think that should prevent them from being a target.  

[MAC331]

Reimer and Raanta are two free agents I would consider. But getting a good starter is a priority and it might cost us a bit. That said, I don't think Kuemper is going to be expensive, Varlamov shouldn't be cost prohibitive, and Andersen is a big enough add that a high cost is worth it.

Define the cost for any of these 3 that would make them even listen to BT. I question whether we have what it takes to get anyone good in a trade.

[kehatch]

Define the cost for any of these 3 that would make them even listen to BT. I question whether we have what it takes to get anyone good in a trade.

Why would you question that? The Flames have plenty of assets and goalies are traded all of the time.

[MAC331]

Why would you question that? The Flames have plenty of assets and goalies are traded all of the time.

What assets from our roster gets you a potential top goaltender ? Do we have what these 3 mentioned team would want ?

[phoenix66]

Define the cost for any of these 3 that would make them even listen to BT. I question whether we have what it takes to get anyone good in a trade.

Reimer and Ranta are UFA, no trade required.. 

[phoenix66]

Bishop will be expensive.  So I understand that there may be a limited appetite to give up significant assets for a player that could walk away in a year.  But I tend to agree with you.  The Flames should be able to sign the player to an extension.  Unless there is an indication the player will walk I don't think that should prevent them from being a target.  

 

exactly , now you're talking permission to get the player signed to an extension as a condition of the trade. Now you're likely forking over a Roster player and a Prospect. Likely Bennett and Gilies gets it done, maybe a pick in there  like having to swap first rounders

The more risk you eliminate raises the price

[kehatch]

exactly , now you're talking permission to get the player signed to an extension as a condition of the trade. Now you're likely forking over a Roster player and a Prospect. Likely Bennett and Gilies gets it done, maybe a pick in there like having to swap first rounders

The more risk you eliminate raises the price

There isn't a big enough market for goalies, especially if expansion happens, to be talking about that kind of price for a goalie with 1 more year under contract. Bishop will be pricey, but if they are looking at Bennett + Gilles you loon elsewhere.

[nevermissashift]

exactly , now you're talking permission to get the player signed to an extension as a condition of the trade. Now you're likely forking over a Roster player and a Prospect. Likely Bennett and Gilies gets it done, maybe a pick in there  like having to swap first rounders

The more risk you eliminate raises the price

 

That's right. You demand all the insurance on purchase you are going to pay for it. Don't anybody get any ideas about moving Bennett. He looks like another Gary Roberts. Hands off

[phoenix66]

There isn't a big enough market for goalies, especially if expansion happens, to be talking about that kind of price for a goalie with 1 more year under contract. Bishop will be pricey, but if they are looking at Bennett + Gilles you loon elsewhere.

Totally .. now we're on the same page

 

keep in mind , Im not saying we wont ask about these people , or try and get them . Just remember, we are dealing from a position of weakness.Every team in the league knows we need a goalie, or 2, and a Good one and we have to get one.

 

I'm just putting myself in the position of the other GM.

 

If you come calling on MY all star goalie.. who i dont have to trade, and ask for permission to guarantee a contract extension with him first on a long term deal?.. you are going to pay me a ransom for it.  hence why (just as an example) i dont see Bishop happening due to the cost .

For various different reasons , the Flames have no position of strength over any of the teams with a goaltender we would covet, with the exception of maybe Anaheim with Andersen.. and there, we wont be alone.. and if they can keep him out of the west they will

 

Now again , do I hope BT pulls off a Coup?.. Absolutely!  , just for that to happen there has to be some urgency on the other team to move that player

[kehatch]

Totally .. now we're on the same page

keep in mind , Im not saying we wont ask about these people , or try and get them . Just remember, we are dealing from a position of weakness.Every team in the league knows we need a goalie, or 2, and a Good one and we have to get one.

I'm just putting myself in the position of the other GM.

If you come calling on MY all star goalie.. who i dont have to trade, and ask for permission to guarantee a contract extension with him first on a long term deal?.. you are going to pay me a ransom for it. hence why (just as an example) i dont see Bishop happening due to the cost .

For various different reasons , the Flames have no position of strength over any of the teams with a goaltender we would covet, with the exception of maybe Anaheim with Andersen.. and there, we wont be alone.. and if they can keep him out of the west they will

Now again , do I hope BT pulls off a Coup?.. Absolutely! , just for that to happen there has to be some urgency on the other team to move that player

If expansion happens there will be a number of goalies available and not a lot of buyers. The limited market usually makes it a buyers market for goalies. Which is why you rarely see them go for very high prices.

[phoenix66]

If expansion happens there will be a number of goalies available and not a lot of buyers. The limited market usually makes it a buyers market for goalies. Which is why you rarely see them go for very high prices.

Right , but what Im saying is the goalies we likely covet wont be affected by the expansion.

If I have a UFA. I'm protecting the other guy, If a team is serious about re-signing them they will. Just because they get chosen doesnt mean they go there.

UFA is a GM's best friend when it comes to an Expansion draft

 

If Im Pittsburgh i protect Murray and Expose MAF. or trade him, but we dont want him

If I'm St Louis, I protect the RFA Allen and expose Elliot

If Im the flyers, I protect Neuvirth and HOPE someone takes Mason

If Im tampa I protect Vasilevsky , expose Bishop and resign him if that's what i want to do 

Anaheim will trade Andersen, Im just saying we wont be their first choice to do so 

Colorado protects Varlamov, guaranteed

 

 

 

what team and what goalie do you think we're gonna have over a barrel to take advantage of ?

maybe Markstrom in Vancouver? unless they get rid of Miller, but we dont want him either

[cross16]

Why would the flames not want MAF? The flames don't want a legit to 10 starting goalie in the league signed to a reasonable contract for the next 3 seasons? Sorry I think it's ridiculous to say that the flames shouldn't want MAF. Personally I would be all over him if Pittsburgh lets him go and I think they will because Murray is their present and their future IMO.

[nevermissashift]

Why would the flames not want MAF? The flames don't want a legit to 10 starting goalie in the league signed to a reasonable contract for the next 3 seasons? Sorry I think it's ridiculous to say that the flames shouldn't want MAF. Personally I would be all over him if Pittsburgh lets him go and I think they will because Murray is their present and their future IMO.

 

Why would Pittsburgh want to separate a strong tandem? How much are they both being paid?