Goaltending

[Flyerfan52]

Just to be clear i'm not advocating he will or should get 5 million, i'm saying my fear is that is what it could take. I agree 4.5 on a 3 year deal is reasonable, but we are also talking about potentially the best goalie option available in the off-season which is going to drive up both his ask and the trade value.

 

4.5mill per and 3 years or less i'm interested. anything more i'm not and I fear it will take more.

This year is not a goalie market. Let's not go all Holmgren here.

The Ducks seem to be putting their money on Gibson. Trade our later 2nd (or less) for his rights, give him 1.5 (or he can sit & stew as RFA) & let Andersen earn a slot. If the Ducks trade him for a late 2nd he has little choice but to take our offer as he only has 125 NHL games. Then let him beat Ortio for 1 of the 2 goalie slots.

 

To hedge our bets still get a proven vet for the winner in camp to try to take the top job from.

[cross16]

Is it just me, or is this the worst possible timing on needing a goalie(s)?

The UFA list is pretty dusty.

Right now it's not great. If expansion draft goes through might be the best time to need a goalie.

[jjgallow]

Your supposed hole in your argument was just an excuse to provide another backhanded insult at the Flames inability to develop goalies. Your basically saying your right but the Flames lack the ability to implement your brilliance.

 

 

Look, I said there was a hole in my arguement.   I can't help but think you're off on a bit of a tangent/conspiracy here.

 

So....just to be clear, the rebuild wasn't my idea.  You seem to think it was.

 

Also, excluding goaltenders from the rebuild until 2016, when they're the most logical starting point...Not my idea either.

 

Almost every second post in this thread is a backhanded insult at Flames goalies, and you're totally cool with that.  I'm probably the strongest supporter of goaltenders in our system in this thread, and if you want to turn me into the negative one, you can.  If you're okay with being wrong.

 

The Flames have 4 paid positions for goalies, two in the NHL, two in the AHL.   They can develop goaltenders in those positions, or, alternatively, they can put veterans in them.  We can have that 20 page arguement if you want to stick to your guns on how much better goaltender development would go with veterans in those spots.   But math isn't going to get along with you any more than I will.  And nobody said anything about putting goalies who aren't ready for the NHL, into the NHL.  Other than you.  So that's Not a thing.

 

A veteran would be the lowest risk option for immediate improvement.  Yes.

 

As for what I'm advocating, the Number one thing I advocated was to give Ortio a chance, and re-assess at the end of the season.  I haven't made up my mind what's best yet.   And....I don't see any reason why everyone was in a rush on that.

[MAC331]

Well one I don't think he is that good. I think he is a good starter but not great and second I don't believe in long term deals for goalies unless they are elite or upper echelon. Goalies come and go so quick that I'd rather not tie up cap space unless he is a legit top end starter. I don't believe Anderson is that.

You also seem to live in the present and don't believe that players get or should get better with experience. Should we really just be plugging a hole waiting for this Gilles kid to arrive, what if he is a flop ? The Flames at some point are going to have to take a risk on someone as their goalie. If you are going to go out on a limb and trade for a RFA Goalie and offer him 2 years, why bother ?

[phoenix66]

I'm a big one for reading between the lines,and based on comments made by BT, Ramo,and Ortio, I believe it's Ortio on the hottest and the goal is to focus on acquiring a backup,a 1B, OR a top prospect to pair with Ramo.

This is why:

1. BT was quick to announce the departure of Backstrom and Hiller but not the other two

2.Ramo stated he wishes to be back and although he said it ls a wait to see what direction management goes,he said after speaking with them "no reason to believe not" about being back. So he obviously received some form of assurance they wanted that.

3. Ortio was more non committal.stated he wants to be here, but also pled his case for how "he believes he's earned it" and "we'll see" and how he will "check out all his options" so he was obviously given doubt about being here.

4. bt also addressed the expansion factor "who has to get rid of a goalie and how soon do they want to do it"

This all tells me if BT gets his way, Ramo will be our starter next year with a backup fully capable of taking his job.

If he hits a home run and gets a proved starter then maybe Ortio is in the conversation but the likely case is its Ortio's spot on the line.

Not saying I agree, I don't want to lose Ortio and we certainly don't want another 3 headed rotation but that's what all the pieces are saying to me.

[tmac70]

You also seem to live in the present and don't believe that players get or should get better with experience. Should we really just be plugging a hole waiting for this Gilles kid to arrive, what if he is a flop ? The Flames at some point are going to have to take a risk on someone as their goalie. If you are going to go out on a limb and trade for a RFA Goalie and offer him 2 years, why bother ?

There are two teams in need of starting goalies, us and TO.  TO has more cap space offer more for an RFA than us. If we go after someone you better be 100% sure he is the guy, or your no further ahead. Goaltending is a need but so is better defense and systems.Our dman and style of play currently are to offensive minded and leave to many holes and movement for the opposition. I will agree goaltending was a weak spot but there were also huge defensive mistakes and poor decisions by players as well

[phoenix66]

There are two teams in need of starting goalies, us and TO. TO has more cap space offer more for an RFA than us. If we go after someone you better be 100% sure he is the guy, or your no further ahead. Goaltending is a need but so is better defense and systems.Our dman and style of play currently are to offensive minded and leave to many holes and movement for the opposition. I will agree goaltending was a weak spot but there were also huge defensive mistakes and poor decisions by players as well

Ironically based on this argument then Reimer should be our target. He played like a starter in a bad defense environment and we've seen his game go up behind a good defense. I think we slot ahead of Toronto in defense but definitely behind San Jose.

[travel_dude]

I'm a big one for reading between the lines,and based on comments made by BT, Ramo,and Ortio, I believe it's Ortio on the hottest and the goal is to focus on acquiring a backup,a 1B, OR a top prospect to pair with Ramo.

This is why:

1. BT was quick to announce the departure of Backstrom and Hiller but not the other two

2.Ramo stated he wishes to be back and although he said it ls a wait to see what direction management goes,he said after speaking with them "no reason to believe not" about being back. So he obviously received some form of assurance they wanted that.

3. Ortio was more non committal.stated he wants to be here, but also pled his case for how "he believes he's earned it" and "we'll see" and how he will "check out all his options" so he was obviously given doubt about being here.

4. bt also addressed the expansion factor "who has to get rid of a goalie and how soon do they want to do it"

This all tells me if BT gets his way, Ramo will be our starter next year with a backup fully capable of taking his job.

If he hits a home run and gets a proved starter then maybe Ortio is in the conversation but the likely case is its Ortio's spot on the line.

Not saying I agree, I don't want to lose Ortio and we certainly don't want another 3 headed rotation but that's what all the pieces are saying to me.

 

Without any goalies signed, BT is not going to rule out Ramo.  He could get through the summer and have nobody.  Saying no way to Ramo now makes no sense.  

 

You also seem to live in the present and don't believe that players get or should get better with experience. Should we really just be plugging a hole waiting for this Gilles kid to arrive, what if he is a flop ? The Flames at some point are going to have to take a risk on someone as their goalie. If you are going to go out on a limb and trade for a RFA Goalie and offer him 2 years, why bother ?

 

I think Cross is saying that you don't sign a goalie to your team for longer than 3 years unless they are a  Price or similar.  That has nothing to do with Gillies or Ortio.  You give that goalie the opportunity to earn an extension.  Look at the DiPietro fiasco.  

[MAC331]

I'm a big one for reading between the lines,and based on comments made by BT, Ramo,and Ortio, I believe it's Ortio on the hottest and the goal is to focus on acquiring a backup,a 1B, OR a top prospect to pair with Ramo.

This is why:

1. BT was quick to announce the departure of Backstrom and Hiller but not the other two

2.Ramo stated he wishes to be back and although he said it ls a wait to see what direction management goes,he said after speaking with them "no reason to believe not" about being back. So he obviously received some form of assurance they wanted that.

3. Ortio was more non committal.stated he wants to be here, but also pled his case for how "he believes he's earned it" and "we'll see" and how he will "check out all his options" so he was obviously given doubt about being here.

4. bt also addressed the expansion factor "who has to get rid of a goalie and how soon do they want to do it"

This all tells me if BT gets his way, Ramo will be our starter next year with a backup fully capable of taking his job.

If he hits a home run and gets a proved starter then maybe Ortio is in the conversation but the likely case is its Ortio's spot on the line.

Not saying I agree, I don't want to lose Ortio and we certainly don't want another 3 headed rotation but that's what all the pieces are saying to me.

I think your reading between the lines is misinterpreted. Neither Ramo or Ortio should think they are a sure thing to return. Ramo will be a UFA trying to bounce back from an ACL injury and Ortio is under control. I see Ortio's comments simply as his opinion that he believes his play put him in the conversation for one of the goalie spot available. I agree it should.

There is no need for BT to say anything negative about Ramo at this point mainly because he is an unknown and will be until he can demonstrate the ability to play at this level again and I doubt they want to pay him 4M. There is a long list of UFA Goalies as good or better than Ramo available.

There are two teams in need of starting goalies, us and TO.  TO has more cap space offer more for an RFA than us. If we go after someone you better be 100% sure he is the guy, or your no further ahead. Goaltending is a need but so is better defense and systems.Our dman and style of play currently are to offensive minded and leave to many holes and movement for the opposition. I will agree goaltending was a weak spot but there were also huge defensive mistakes and poor decisions by players as well

I recognize this but it all starts with a good goalie the players have confidence in.

[phoenix66]

Without any goalies signed, BT is not going to rule out Ramo. He could get through the summer and have nobody. Saying no way to Ramo now makes no sense.

I think Cross is saying that you don't sign a goalie to your team for longer than 3 years unless they are a Price or similar. That has nothing to do with Gillies or Ortio. You give that goalie the opportunity to earn an extension. Look at the DiPietro fiasco.

I totally agree you need to cover your bases, but what those comments say is Ramo was told "we want you back" and Ortio was not.

Obviously BT is gonna talk to everybody and will try and swing for the fences..that's a given.but I feel this gives insight to the strategy they have in mind.

To be clear, I like Ortio.i believe he has earned the right to come up and be solid. But perhaps they view him like many on here do..and that's not future team carrying starter material. If that's what they believe,right or wrong, then it makes sense to replace him if your goal is to develop.

If I take all personal preferences out of my statement I think we can all agree the best upgrade to our goal situation for next season is Ramo and a solid proven new guy

[MAC331]

Without any goalies signed, BT is not going to rule out Ramo.  He could get through the summer and have nobody.  Saying no way to Ramo now makes no sense.  

 

 

I think Cross is saying that you don't sign a goalie to your team for longer than 3 years unless they are a  Price or similar.  That has nothing to do with Gillies or Ortio.  You give that goalie the opportunity to earn an extension.  Look at the DiPietro fiasco.  

Not sure I agree with that approach either, first you have to get the deal and sometimes if competing for the player you go the extra year. I have always been of the opinion if you keep the player in a marketable contract as a GM you have trade options. I would rather go 3 years at 3.5M than 2 at 5 or 5.5M. I'm not saying cross is wrong, just varying thoughts.

[travel_dude]

Not sure I agree that approach either, first you have to get the deal and sometimes if competing for the player you go the extra year. I have always been of the opinion if you keep the player in a marketable contract as a GM you have trade options. I would rather go 3 years at 3.5M than 2 at 5 or 5.5M. I'm not saying cross is wrong, just varying thoughts.

 

Are you agreeing or not.  I said you don't go longer than 3 years unless it's a Price type goalie.  Even to go more than two years is a risk.

 

If we had done that with Hiller or Ramo, where would we be?  That is the point.  A goalie can turn sour in a single year.  You have to guard against that happening.  EDM believes they have a great starter, but chose to only give him 3 years.  Martin Jones signed a 3 year deal.  I think you are seeing less and less long-term goalie contracts right now.  

[phoenix66]

I'm of the opinion now you sign Ramo, Ortio And bring in that new guy. I still don't see us trading for the stud(eg Bishop) and let them fight it out.

The reason it failed last year is it made it past training camp. Based on camp we should have started with Ortio and Ramo and waived Hiller.

If we do it right this year the best 2 will emerge.

[cross16]

You also seem to live in the present and don't believe that players get or should get better with experience. Should we really just be plugging a hole waiting for this Gilles kid to arrive, what if he is a flop ? The Flames at some point are going to have to take a risk on someone as their goalie. If you are going to go out on a limb and trade for a RFA Goalie and offer him 2 years, why bother ?

Well the first part isn't true at all. Players do tend to get better with experience and I've argued and said that in multiple threads. But, unlike you, I don't think all players automatically get better with experience. A 28 year old goalie with 3 years NHL experience with 2 as a starter? Very unlikely you are going to see many substantial improvement there. He's already in ye prime of his career.

I'm not, and have never suggested, the flames should just wait for Gilles. Me saying I don't believe in contracts longer then 3 years for non elite goalies has nothing to do with Gilles. I think in the cap world you get into trouble more with term than you do dollars, so in in hedging my risk I'm hedging it in term not dollars. Id rather offer Anderson more $ and a 3 year deal then offer slightly less for a 4 or 5 year deal. That's also not just Anderson that's a general policy I would have. Goalies are just too up and down to warrant long term deals unless they are special.

[travel_dude]

I'm of the opinion now you sign Ramo, Ortio And bring in that new guy. I still don't see us trading for the stud(eg Bishop) and let them fight it out.

The reason it failed last year is it made it past training camp. Based on camp we should have started with Ortio and Ramo and waived Hiller.

If we do it right this year the best 2 will emerge.

 

You do realize that Ramo may not even be healthy enough to practice/play until October.  Kinda risky to even sign him as an UFA this summer/early fall.

[DirtyDeeds]

I'm of the opinion now you sign Ramo, Ortio And bring in that new guy. I still don't see us trading for the stud(eg Bishop) and let them fight it out.

The reason it failed last year is it made it past training camp. Based on camp we should have started with Ortio and Ramo and waived Hiller.

If we do it right this year the best 2 will emerge.

Both Hiller and Ramo outplayed Ortio in training camp last year. I think it was BH who said that at the start of the reg season.

 

BT has also hinted at bringing in up to 2 new goalies for next year, and he did not rule out going with 3 goalies again if the situation dictated it like this last season.

 

He was real specific when he said that at the end of the day all 3 goalies we did carry did not perform and it was not the decision to carry 3 that gave us such poor goaltending. If you are big on reading between the lines that means all 3 goalies pretty much sucked out of the gate.

 

From that I will surmise that he means if any of the 3 are signed again for next season it was due to difficulties finding suitable average or better goalies on the open market or via trade. There is also the possibility that BT won't be able to free up enough space for a big signing or not enough for 2 signings.

 

For the record I feel only Ramo has played well enough to gain consideration but I think the Flames will see how well he recovers before committing to him. Ramo was the one who eventually pout up decent numbers when the game meant something and got us back into playoff contention.

 

Flames may still retain Ortio if they feel he can develop more. He won't cost much if they decide to keep him around.

 

We can debate what BT intends to do from what others say all we want, but until he actually re-signs them to a contract, I won't count them as anything for next year.

[cross16]

I think something that doesn't get talked about enough is Ramo has always seemed to start slow for the flames. A lot of times excuses were made, Berra was playing more, Hiller was playing too much etc, but the reality is Ramo starts very slowly. Now add the injury and how comfortable should the flames really be with the only fall back bring Ortio?

I think Ramo can play like a starter when he is on, but the problem is he's only on for a portion of the season. If Ramo/Ortio is your plan you better get a 3rd goalie in the mix, IMO

[jjgallow]

 think something that doesn't get talked about enough is Ramo has always seemed to start slow for the flames. A lot of times excuses were made, Berra was playing more, Hiller was playing too much etc, but the reality is Ramo starts very slowly. Now add the injury and how comfortable should the flames really be with the only fall back bring Ortio?

I think Ramo can play like a starter when he is on, but the problem is he's only on for a portion of the season. If Ramo/Ortio is your plan you better get a 3rd goalie in the mix, IMO

 

 

Another way of saying that, is he has crap save percentage.

 

Ramo was never a starter, imho.   At his best, he played like an average to above average starter.  But over-all....No.   Real starters can Maintain that level of play.   And, even surpass it.  They have to.   Because, sometimes, they have bad games too.  But not for extended periods.

 

At no time, has he ever looked like a starter that a contender would want.  

 

 

Put it this way:    IF (and I'm saying IF):    If Ramo is a consideration for next year, then so is bringing in a prospect with under 100 NHL games and better save percentage that Ramo.    Because honestly, with his injury, his track record, and his age.....the prospect is Less risk.

 

Not looking for another prospect fight.  Not even sure where I stand on it right now.    But that's a fair comparison of those two isolated options.

[travel_dude]

I think something that doesn't get talked about enough is Ramo has always seemed to start slow for the flames. A lot of times excuses were made, Berra was playing more, Hiller was playing too much etc, but the reality is Ramo starts very slowly. Now add the injury and how comfortable should the flames really be with the only fall back bring Ortio?

I think Ramo can play like a starter when he is on, but the problem is he's only on for a portion of the season. If Ramo/Ortio is your plan you better get a 3rd goalie in the mix, IMO

 

Ramo said that after his early struggle this season, he worked with the goalie coach to change his style a bit.  He was playing too far out and getting beat on rebounds, etc.  Whether that would translate to starting well in a new season is unknown.  What is it with Finnish goalies that they start slow?  Kipper seemed to be prone to that.  Ortio (JJ would disagree) had several season where he started out of the gate slow.  Ramo seemed to suffer a bit that way too.

 

If waiver status was not a concern, and you were able to find a starter for less than $4m, and you signed Ramo to a cheap contract (due to his injury status), it might be best to go with a starter/Ramo combo and have Ortio/Gillies in the AHL, as 1a/1b goalies. Ortio's performance in "meaningless" games down the stretch is probably giving BT some pause about his performance.

[DirtyDeeds]

It is way too soon to speculate on what the Flames are going to do this offseason. I can safely say that a few words of exit interviews don't mean a lot. If BT has given any of our Goaltenders indications he may re-sign them it could just be his want to keep the asset if the price is right.

 

What will determine what happens is who is available and what they will cost. For example it could be that TB does not need to trade Bishop, Stamkos walks and they go about their business until expansion draft.

 

I really don't see the Flames going after a FA Goaltender......unless they have to. 

 

I am sure they will bring in 1 or 2 goaltenders to compete we shall see if BT has some more "signing magic" to unfold or some more "limits us" contracts. He has given us a bit of everything since he has been here.

[MAC331]

Should Cory Schneider be in the conversation for us. NJD are going to go through quite a transformation this off season and I wonder if they want/need a 6M goalie ?

[JTech780]

Should Cory Schneider be in the conversation for us. NJD are going to go through quite a transformation this off season and I wonder if they want/need a 6M goalie ?

Expect to give up our 2016 1st plus Bennett and more. Schneider went for the 9th overall pick before he had solidified himself as a true number 1, now that he has he will cost a ton.

[travel_dude]

Should Cory Schneider be in the conversation for us. NJD are going to go through quite a transformation this off season and I wonder if they want/need a 6M goalie ?

 

That is one scary contract.  $6m for another 6 years.  

[MAC331]

Expect to give up our 2016 1st plus Bennett and more. Schneider went for the 9th overall pick before he had solidified himself as a true number 1, now that he has he will cost a ton.

You really think so given a new GM and the roster building they need to do this offseason. Plus I hear that franchise isn't in the best shape financially. I was thinking if we landed that 1st from DAL and a few foot solders from our roster.

That is one scary contract.  $6m for another 6 years.  

4 years but do we not want top level goaltending ?

[travel_dude]

You really think so given a new GM and the roster building they need to do this offseason. Plus I hear that franchise isn't in the best shape financially. I was thinking if we landed that 1st from DAL and a few foot solders from our roster.

 

They gave up a 9th overall in a good draft year for him before he was a true #1 and that was far less than other teams were offering. Now he is a true starter.