Goaltending

[darth_henning]

Watched the replays (missed the game). That was not a good night by either goaltender let's be honest here.  Defense didn't exactly help on our end either. 

 

Ortio still needs to work on consistency, but he's better than he has been in the past. He's had some rough games, but its the first time he's had sustained NHL playing time ever, so I wouldn't panic yet, but he needs to be able to keep his bad games, less bad. 

[cross16]

While you can always play better D, hard to see much fault on the Flames D for 3 of those 5. The first Lucic goal, the Versteeg goal and the Carter goal are all weak goals that Ortio needs to stop. 

 

There is no reason to panic becuae he still gave the team a chance to win I just think it confirms that he isn't likely going to be a starter at the NHL. There is a patter here of inconsistancy that isn't very likely to suddenly fix itself. I still think ortio is an NHL goaltender, he just isn't a starter he is a back or 1b type which is still a solid find. Let's remember, Ortio was a 5th round pick so for him to even be in the NHL conversation is a win for the Flames. 

[darth_henning]

That's a fair point. 

 

And really, him being a starter isn't a necessity, just one of those "it would be really nice if we had that problem" thing. 

 

I think most have been talking for a couple seasons now about Gillies backed by Ortio being our cup-winning tandem. And I'm good with that if Gillies plays up to where we expect him to be. 

 

Ortio looks like he can easily handle up to about 30 games per year at this point and give us a good chance to win most of them. That's all he need's to be able to do to have a place here long-term. 

[jjgallow]

Last night we saw a different Ortio.  None of the goals let in were well defended.  Very sub-par.  Defense was non-existent at times, but he has to make those stops.  Andreoff's was the weakest.  Carter's should have been a easy stop.  Lucic's were nothing that dangerous. Versteeg's was a matter of losing track and Ortio knocking it in himself.

 

Two games against the Kings, 8 goals against.  Whether that is a fluke, bad defense or poor effort, it can't continue next season if we want to win more than 50% of the games with a backup in nets.

 

 

While you can always play better D, hard to see much fault on the Flames D for 3 of those 5. The first Lucic goal, the Versteeg goal and the Carter goal are all weak goals that Ortio needs to stop. 

 

There is no reason to panic becuae he still gave the team a chance to win I just think it confirms that he isn't likely going to be a starter at the NHL. There is a patter here of inconsistancy that isn't very likely to suddenly fix itself. I still think ortio is an NHL goaltender, he just isn't a starter he is a back or 1b type which is still a solid find. Let's remember, Ortio was a 5th round pick so for him to even be in the NHL conversation is a win for the Flames. 

 

Through Ortio's stretch of improving play, I've heard arguements from both of you along the lines of:

 

"Well we expected him to get that shutout"

to

"These games don't matter anyway, we can't learn anything from them"

 

 

Then he has One bad game that favors your opinion, and we get a Play-By-Play, followed by a forecast of his entire future.

 

Sigh.

 

Brian Elliot had a Horrible game against Boston a couple nights ago, that made Ortio's performance last night look nothing short of brilliant.

 

Nothing happened last night that doesn't happen, somewhat often, to Every goalie in the NHL, including the NHL's Absolute Best goalies.

 

 

We both know how the conversation would go if I pointed out our Massive defensive weaknesses last night as evidence that we need another elite young D.   "It's just one game"...etc...etc.  

 

Nothing constructive came from either of you on his shutout.  So not sure why we're getting a play-by-play off one bad game.    We talk and talk and talk on here about how we Can't just Jump to conclusions off of one bad game.  We all agree.   At least, with our individual favorite goalies/players, we do.   

 

But at the end of the day, if it helps your arguments, you just can't help yourselves

[phoenix66]

Through Ortio's stretch of improving play, I've heard arguements from both of you along the lines of:

"Well we expected him to get that shutout"

to

"These games don't matter anyway, we can't learn anything from them"

Then he has One bad game that favors your opinion, and we get a Play-By-Play, followed by a forecast of his entire future.

Sigh.

Brian Elliot had a Horrible game against Boston a couple nights ago, that made Ortio's performance last night look nothing short of brilliant.

Nothing happened last night that doesn't happen, somewhat often, to Every goalie in the NHL, including the NHL's Absolute Best goalies.

We both know how the conversation would go if I pointed out our Massive defensive weaknesses last night as evidence that we need another elite young D. "It's just one game"...etc...etc.

Don't feel bad. This is the same thinking that would have asked for Sutter's head for picking up an. 886 3Rd stringer from San Jose.

[cross16]

Through Ortio's stretch of improving play, I've heard arguements from both of you along the lines of:

 

"Well we expected him to get that shutout"

to

"These games don't matter anyway, we can't learn anything from them"

 

 

Then he has One bad game that favors your opinion, and we get a Play-By-Play, followed by a forecast of his entire future.

 

Sigh.

 

Brian Elliot had a Horrible game against Boston a couple nights ago, that made Ortio's performance last night look nothing short of brilliant.

 

Nothing happened last night that doesn't happen, somewhat often, to Every goalie in the NHL, including the NHL's Absolute Best goalies.

 

 

We both know how the conversation would go if I pointed out our Massive defensive weaknesses last night as evidence that we need another elite young D.   "It's just one game"...etc...etc.  

 

Nothing constructive came from either of you on his shutout.  So not sure why we're getting a play-by-play off one bad game.    We talk and talk and talk on here about how we Can't just Jump to conclusions off of one bad game.  We all agree.   At least, with our individual favorite goalies/players, we do.   

 

But at the end of the day, if it helps your arguments, you just can't help yourselves

JJ if you want to continue to spin and twist my opinions and words so you can keep your belief that Ortio is some great goalie be my guest but you are wrong and the fact that are you starting to mis represent what I say is getting frustrating.

I said right in that post, that bad game or not I didn't think it was a big deal nor did it change my opinion of him going forward.  Ortio is an NHL caliber goalie, should be part of the mix next year but is not a starter and I've been saying that for weeks now. Nothing he did against Edmonton or last night changed my mind. If you believe differently fine but that is my opinion right or wrong. If I'm wrong great, the flames have a new starting goalie but right now I don't think they do. 

 

I will leave it at that.

[travel_dude]

Through Ortio's stretch of improving play, I've heard arguements from both of you along the lines of:

 

"Well we expected him to get that shutout"

to

"These games don't matter anyway, we can't learn anything from them"

 

 

Then he has One bad game that favors your opinion, and we get a Play-By-Play, followed by a forecast of his entire future.

 

Sigh.

 

Brian Elliot had a Horrible game against Boston a couple nights ago, that made Ortio's performance last night look nothing short of brilliant.

 

Nothing happened last night that doesn't happen, somewhat often, to Every goalie in the NHL, including the NHL's Absolute Best goalies.

 

 

We both know how the conversation would go if I pointed out our Massive defensive weaknesses last night as evidence that we need another elite young D.   "It's just one game"...etc...etc.  

 

Nothing constructive came from either of you on his shutout.  So not sure why we're getting a play-by-play off one bad game.    We talk and talk and talk on here about how we Can't just Jump to conclusions off of one bad game.  We all agree.   At least, with our individual favorite goalies/players, we do.   

 

But at the end of the day, if it helps your arguments, you just can't help yourselves

 

Wow, just wow.

 

We both pointed out aspects of lousy goaltending and you turn it into a lynching of Ortio.  He has a 6-9-5 record for the season.  One shutout.  He played a bad game.  He had a good game against the Oilers.  Last night he was on par with Hiller or Backstrom this season.  

 

Consistency is all you would expect of a backup goalie.  I may be pointing it out to you, but BT is also looking at the same games.  If he won 5 in a row, then it's a different discussion.  But it's not.   

[Carty]

Nothing happened last night that doesn't happen, somewhat often, to Every goalie in the NHL, including the NHL's Absolute Best goalies.

 

We both know how the conversation would go if I pointed out our Massive defensive weaknesses last night as evidence that we need another elite young D.   "It's just one game"...etc...etc. 

 

The D failed and allowed a few chances that could/should have been avoided...   But Ortio should have stopped the puck on 3 of those goals...   I would be one of the first to defend him if I could, but he wasn't screened and there is no excuse other than he simply let a few bad ones get by him and ended up with a ,808 SV% for the game...

 

 

Ortio had a lot of incentive to play well last night as his future and any potential contract depended on it, and he failed to deliver a solid performance...   You could just see him melt when the puck got by him with 35 seconds left, he got rattled and then got 5 holed again in OT...

 

I am thinking that the Flames will offer him to a 1 (maybe 2 max) year contract as a backup for somewhere in the 800K to 1 mil range, but not much more..   If he gets the opportunity he will still have to earn a better contract next time, and he's crazy if he holds out thinking he will get more somewhere else in the NHL...   He is still young enough to have the potential to be a starter, but he has a ways to go to prove that he is capable...   I hope that he does, and that he can work his way into being a #1 for the Flames, but he ain't there yet...

 

The Flames will try and sign the best proven starter they can find, and it remains to be seen who might be made available...   The search continues...

[MAC331]

The D failed and allowed a few chances that could/should have been avoided...   But Ortio should have stopped the puck on 3 of those goals...   I would be one of the first to defend him if I could, but he wasn't screened and there is no excuse other than he simply let a few bad ones get by him and ended up with a ,808 SV% for the game...

 

 

Ortio had a lot of incentive to play well last night as his future and any potential contract depended on it, and he failed to deliver a solid performance...   You could just see him melt when the puck got by him with 35 seconds left, he got rattled and then got 5 holed again in OT...

 

I am thinking that the Flames will offer him to a 1 (maybe 2 max) year contract as a backup for somewhere in the 800K to 1 mil range, but not much more..   If he gets the opportunity he will still have to earn a better contract next time, and he's crazy if he holds out thinking he will get more somewhere else in the NHL...   He is still young enough to have the potential to be a starter, but he has a ways to go to prove that he is capable...   I hope that he does, and that he can work his way into being a #1 for the Flames, but he ain't there yet...

 

The Flames will try and sign the best proven starter they can find, and it remains to be seen who might be made available...   The search continues...

He had the game won and his team couldn't get the puck out of their own end (sound familiar). Bennett blew 2 attempts to clear. I thought Ortio played very well against a good LA team hungry for a win. You can't every loss on our goaltender.

[kehatch]

So we shouldn't aim for that then?

Chicago and LA both did, coming out of their rebuilds, imho. Or extremely close.

They didn't get to where they are by patching things.

I can't argue with you in the world according to JJ. But in the real world both of those teams saw consistent changes in their roster. No team is built for 10 years.

And none of that explains why we can't get a starting goalie because we haven't got some top end D prospect that you imagine exists somewhere.

We can't get a goalie until we get a top end D prospect who is NHL ready but just shy of pro seasons that would force us to expose him in the draft? Because our D needs to be set up to last 10 years? That doesn't make even a little sense.

[darth_henning]

 

I am thinking that the Flames will offer him to a 1 (maybe 2 max) year contract as a backup for somewhere in the 800K to 1 mil range, but not much more..   If he gets the opportunity he will still have to earn a better contract next time, and he's crazy if he holds out thinking he will get more somewhere else in the NHL...   He is still young enough to have the potential to be a starter, but he has a ways to go to prove that he is capable...   I hope that he does, and that he can work his way into being a #1 for the Flames, but he ain't there yet....

 

I agree with this. Though I'd be surprised if we went as high as 1 mil. 

 

He's played himself into the backup role. Its up tto him to earn a position as part of a tandem or a starter. He's not there yet, but he deserves the chance to do so. 

 

 

That said, while his wasn't the world's best goaltending last night, our defence was equally bad in letting chances get to him. 

 

Could he have done more and won the game? yes. But so could the rest of the team. 

[kehatch]

He had the game won and his team couldn't get the puck out of their own end (sound familiar). Bennett blew 2 attempts to clear. I thought Ortio played very well against a good LA team hungry for a win. You can't every loss on our goaltender.

You can't. But that wasn't a good game by the goalie. You can't win many games when your goalie gives up that many soft and untimely goals. Not all on him for sure. But it wasn't a good game.

[MAC331]

You can't. But that wasn't a good game by the goalie. You can't win many games when your goalie gives up that many soft and untimely goals. Not all on him for sure. But it wasn't a good game.

Aren't all goals untimely ? this team has been guilty for their lack of support and play in their own end all year so don't be all over Ortio every time they experience a loss. People should get used to these kinds of games they are the new NHL.

[DirtyDeeds]

I think some of the problems in the thinking here stems from the past where our drafted goaltender prospects have not been developed internally by our farm system. We do have a number of prospects now that have a lot of promise to finally be that goalies for us.

 

We have to take a step back however and let them earn their status(Starter, backup, call up, replacement, AHLer). We don't know but we can't confuse their potential, with where they should be within our system.

 

The Flames main club can't be used as a training ground for our goaltenders. The position is just too important to be that for anything but an emergency callup.

 

The club has a mandate to win and to make the playoffs every year.. We have to fill that position with good enough goaltending to accomplish that. If the team is a bit behind in the development then we need better than average goaltending or we will fail.

 

The prospect goalies have to take advantage of whatever opportunities are made available to them. It does not make any difference if the D is playing well or playing poor. It does not matter if the opportunity is a good one or a poor one. In Ortio's case his first opportunity and opportunity was against some strong teams at that time. He played very poorly. Wasn't even close to average or good. He is doing better with this 2nd opportunity on the Flames. Not good enough for Starter considerations but good enough to keep him around. Starter considerations can come with future opportunities for him.

[travel_dude]

^^^^^^

 

Well said.  I think I'm gonna stop posting in this thread, since we are just going in circles.  I'll wait till I see any signings/trades this summer.

[DirtyDeeds]

Aren't all goals untimely ? this team has been guilty for their lack of support and play in their own end all year so don't be all over Ortio every time they experience a loss. People should get used to these kinds of games they are the new NHL.

The rebuilding team will always have some potholes along the rebuild road. Team Game so the team should take blame for the losses/bad play.

 

When looking at the upgrading you have to inspect each position in depth. Upgrading areas you are weak gives you the best opportunity to improve the overall results of the team.

[Carty]

Aren't all goals untimely ? this team has been guilty for their lack of support and play in their own end all year so don't be all over Ortio every time they experience a loss. People should get used to these kinds of games they are the new NHL.

 

You can't be serious...   These kinds of games are the result of piss poor goaltending, not the new NHL...

 

If Ortio had even only let in one 1 bad goal instead of 3, the Flame win that game and Ortio would have improved to 7 wins and 8 losses...

 

Ortio may be the best option the Flames have at the moment but he sits at 71st in the league for SV% with ,903...   Hiller is at 79th (,879) and Backstrom is in 74th (,836)...   For GAA Ortio is at 58th (2.74), Hiller 83rd (3,51) and Backstrom 86th (4,16)...  

 

The Flames have the worst combined goaltending of any team in the league...   and it needs an upgrade with a proven starter...

 

If nothing else had been different than it was this season and the Flames had been getting better than average instead of well below average goaltending they would have been a bubble team instead of finishing near the bottom...   Hopefully the Flames can get that goalie via FA or a trade and then work on the other areas that also need improvement...   But without a better option than they currently have in goal, it doesn't matter what else happens, they would be back finishing near the bottom again next season, and I just don't see Treling letting that happen...

[MAC331]

 

You can't be serious...   These kinds of games are the result of piss poor goaltending, not the new NHL...

 

If Ortio had even only let in one 1 bad goal instead of 3, the Flame win that game and Ortio would have improved to 7 wins and 8 losses...

 

Ortio may be the best option the Flames have at the moment but he sits at 71st in the league for SV% with ,903...   Hiller is at 79th (,879) and Backstrom is in 74th (,836)...   For GAA Ortio is at 58th (2.74), Hiller 83rd (3,51) and Backstrom 86th (4,16)...  

 

The Flames have the worst combined goaltending of any team in the league...   and it needs an upgrade with a proven starter...

 

If nothing else had been different than it was this season and the Flames had been getting better than average instead of well below average goaltending they would have been a bubble team instead of finishing near the bottom...   Hopefully the Flames can get that goalie via FA or a trade and then work on the other areas that also need improvement...   But without a better option than they currently have in goal, it doesn't matter what else happens, they would be back finishing near the bottom again next season, and I just don't see Treling letting that happen...

 

I don't disagree with your overall assessment of our goaltending for the year but watch some of these other games throughout the league, many of the goals are soft and score higher than usual. Also I am not saying that Ortio is the sole answer for next season but he has played well enough to be in the conversation.

[Carty]

I don't disagree with your overall assessment of our goaltending for the year but watch some of these other games throughout the league, many of the goals are soft and score higher than usual.

 

Are there soft goals let in by other goalies?...   Sure there are, just not as many, and not so often...  

 

Otherwise, if the bolded was true, the league wouldn't be looking at low scoring games and shrinking goalies equipment again...   and if soft goals were typical for goalies, our goalies wouldn't rank so low on the totem pole, including Ortio...

 

Also I am not saying that Ortio is the sole answer for next season but he has played well enough to be in the conversation.

 

Ortio deserves to be in the conversation for the backup position next season as long as he is willing to sign a short term contract for a reasonable amount...   He has the potential to work his way into being a starter, but he will have to earn it, and that will take at least another season (or two)...   If he is given the opportunity, the rest will be up to him,,,

[MAC331]

The rebuilding team will always have some potholes along the rebuild road. Team Game so the team should take blame for the losses/bad play.

 

When looking at the upgrading you have to inspect each position in depth. Upgrading areas you are weak gives you the best opportunity to improve the overall results of the team.

I agree

Are there soft goals let in by other goalies?...   Sure there are, just not as many, and not so often...  

 

Otherwise, if the bolded was true, the league wouldn't be looking at low scoring games and shrinking goalies equipment again...   and if soft goals were typical for goalies, our goalies wouldn't rank so low on the totem pole, including Ortio...

 

 

Ortio deserves to be in the conversation for the backup position next season as long as he is willing to sign a short term contract for a reasonable amount...   He has the potential to work his way into being a starter, but he will have to earn it, and that will take at least another season (or two)...   If he is given the opportunity, the rest will be up to him,,,

Agree

[kehatch]

Aren't all goals untimely ? this team has been guilty for their lack of support and play in their own end all year so don't be all over Ortio every time they experience a loss. People should get used to these kinds of games they are the new NHL.

Statistically Kipper wasn't a great goalie outside of two seasons. But he was very clutch. He stopped the pucks that he needed to.

Ortio let in a weak goal late in the game to let LA tie it and then let another weak one in early in OT.

I don't think it means all that much and I am not counting him in out because of it. I was just responding to the post that this wasnt a poor goalie performance. This wasn't a good game for Ortio. That's all I am saying.

[jjgallow]

JJ if you want to continue to spin and twist my opinions and words so you can keep your belief that Ortio is some great goalie be my guest but you are wrong and the fact that are you starting to mis represent what I say is getting frustrating.

I said right in that post, that bad game or not I didn't think it was a big deal nor did it change my opinion of him going forward.  Ortio is an NHL caliber goalie, should be part of the mix next year but is not a starter and I've been saying that for weeks now. Nothing he did against Edmonton or last night changed my mind. If you believe differently fine but that is my opinion right or wrong. If I'm wrong great, the flames have a new starting goalie but right now I don't think they do. 

 

I will leave it at that.

 

 

Wow, just wow.

 

We both pointed out aspects of lousy goaltending and you turn it into a lynching of Ortio.  He has a 6-9-5 record for the season.  One shutout.  He played a bad game.  He had a good game against the Oilers.  Last night he was on par with Hiller or Backstrom this season.  

 

Consistency is all you would expect of a backup goalie.  I may be pointing it out to you, but BT is also looking at the same games.  If he won 5 in a row, then it's a different discussion.  But it's not.   

 

I'm not even going to get into everything that's wrong with these posts, because I shouldn't have to.

 

To wait for One bad game by Ortio, and say what you said, when you said it, is not only poor judgement and short-sighted, but of extremely poor taste.

 

You can argue that I'm misrepresenting you if you want.   But your timing, is not up for debate, and could not be worse.  Literally, one bad game, after a shutout, and you speak as if you're talking about the whole season when you clearly picked a moment in time that had the least amount of class, but the most benefit, to your point of view.  Ortio will most likely have many great games in his future, and your thoughts will be forgotten, lucky for you.   But I hope you find a more level-headed way of thinking about this before Gillies, and other prospects, come on board.

[kehatch]

I'm not even going to get into everything that's wrong with these posts, because I shouldn't have to.

To wait for One bad game by Ortio, and say what you said, when you said it, is not only poor judgement and short-sighted, but of extremely poor taste.

You can argue that I'm misrepresenting you if you want. But your timing, is not up for debate, and could not be worse. Literally, one bad game, after a shutout, and you speak as if you're talking about the whole season when you clearly picked a moment in time that had the least amount of class, but the most benefit, to your point of view. Ortio will most likely have many great games in his future, and your thoughts will be forgotten, lucky for you. But I hope you find a more level-headed way of thinking about this before Gillies, and other prospects, come on board.

Aren't you the guy that was ready to anoint him as the next starter after his first good game?

[travel_dude]

JJ - when was the last time you said anything positive about any other Flames goalie?  You are always there pumping the tires of Ortio, but nobody is allowed to criticize him?  People have trashed Ramo and Hiller all year, but somehow everybody is picking on Ortio?  

 

I'll pick some cherries here.  You were trashing McDonald's selection over Demko here, but went on to say that after 4 games he deserved to get back to the NHL after strong games in the AHL.  

 

Absolutely.  The Flames made a mistake.   The rest of the hockey and scouting world had it right. Period.  

 

The Flames are NOT good at scouting goalies and this is Not something they should have even attempted to "beat the draft" at, frankly.  All they needed to do was pick the best ranked player available.  That was probably Demko.  Not to turn this into a BPA thread, but powerhouse team or not, any player who's Already in US College on draft day, is probably special.  Especially, especially, a goaltender.  Goaltenders develop late.  Any goaltender that jumps ahead in development like that, should have meant something.  And it did, to the rest of the hockey and scouting world.

 

 

On a more upbeat note:   Ortio is getting back into form with back-to-back second strong games in the AHL:

http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?id=4090

 

Will he ever get the chance he deserves now?   Tough to say.  But he appears to be making up for the lost playing time and getting where he needs to be.

 

 

Ya know, I don't know why I bother responding to you about goaltending.  You are so biased for Ortio that nothing else matters.  One shutout and some strong performances this year.  Some stinkers.  Not much different than Ramo provided this year.

[robrob1974]

Wow, just wow.

We both pointed out aspects of lousy goaltending and you turn it into a lynching of Ortio. He has a 6-9-5 record for the season. One shutout. He played a bad game. He had a good game against the Oilers. Last night he was on par with Hiller or Backstrom this season.

Consistency is all you would expect of a backup goalie. I may be pointing it out to you, but BT is also looking at the same games. If he won 5 in a row, then it's a different discussion. But it's not.

As a back up goalie that's not a terrible record. He also had somewhere between 3-5 games where he only let in 2 in losses.

When we had Kipper, if our backup was able to do that, we would have had a rested Kipper and an extra 17 points.