Goaltending

[robrob1974]

Let's trade Ortio for Brossoit!

[FlamesLogic]

I mostly agree. With the caveat that if they can't find an upgrade to Ramo they might not have much of a choice.

On another note and not directed to DD, we are all assuming Ortio is earning a contract with the Flames. But what if they turn his recent success into trade value to bring in someone like Murray?

I think most would be ok with that scenario as well but you will still need to bring in some kind of vet or journeyman to help him transition. 

[kehatch]

I think most would be ok with that scenario as well but you will still need to bring in some kind of vet or journeyman to help him transition.

Agreed. They will probably go with one proven and one unproven goalie this season. They need to find an upgrade for Ramo for sure. The question is whether they will look for an upgrade to Ortio as well.

[conundrumed]

Anyone think Anders Nilsson is worth a look? 6'5" if you like size, 26yo.

My reasoning is that I'm looking for a goalie that needs a real opportunity

He's never really had a great chance, even with the Oilers, you just know Talbot's contract isn't to be a backup.

His numbers were decent for being on the Oilers, but when Talbot was healthy again, Nilsson was scrubbed.

[420since1974]

Nilsson appears to be similar to Howard, in that he plays at his best, when he feels he is the undisputed # 1.

 

If there is any stiff competition, both their games appear to suffer.

[conundrumed]

Nilsson appears to be similar to Howard, in that he plays at his best, when he feels he is the undisputed # 1.

 

If there is any stiff competition, both their games appear to suffer.

I have a hard time agreeing with that due to Talbot's salary. The Oilers are going to give Talbot every last opportunity to be their starter.

So Nilsson was up against that. Their wasn't much opportunity for him to win the seat, he is given zero leeway in that situation.

[DirtyDeeds]

I mostly agree. With the caveat that if they can't find an upgrade to Ramo they might not have much of a choice.

On another note and not directed to DD, we are all assuming Ortio is earning a contract with the Flames. But what if they turn his recent success into trade value to bring in someone like Murray?

I hope this is not the case.

 

I also would like Ortio play well enough through the remainder of the season(and not just a few games) to give the Flames a reason to bring him back.

 

Also isn't Ramo`s injury such that he is unlikely to be ready for next season anyway?

[jjgallow]

I don't see how you can go into next season with Ramo/Ortio as your goalie combo. They both played so badly here at lengthy times this season, they were put through waivers and no one claimed them. Ortio also started off slow last season on the Farm. I have heard some talk of him not practising well enough.

 

All you are doing with going into next season with the Ramo/Ortio combo is setting yourself up for a possible failure. You put your players in a position to win, not hope they will.

 

Disagree on the lengthy part.   Ortio was never given anything lengthy where he didn't succeed at, ever.

[conundrumed]

As far as Ramo goes, we have quite a bit of cutting bait over the next 2 years and a lot of corrections.

Might as well get started...

[420since1974]

I have a hard time agreeing with that due to Talbot's salary. The Oilers are going to give Talbot every last opportunity to be their starter.

So Nilsson was up against that. Their wasn't much opportunity for him to win the seat, he is given zero leeway in that situation.

 

 

That's part of my point.

Nilsson was playing quite well until Talbot received his new contract.

Then his play started to drop off.

[CheersMan]

[conundrumed]

That's part of my point.

Nilsson was playing quite well until Talbot received his new contract.

Then his play started to drop off.

I'm definitely not going to turn this into defending him.

Just looking at options. Many teams find goodness from plucking a backup needing more playing time.

Nilsson checks some of those boxes, really just his 1st yr this yr, has great size and his stats weren't atrocious for a filthy D like Edmonton.

Not comparing him to Bishop, but the size and age vs path have some similarities.

[travel_dude]

I'm definitely not going to turn this into defending him.

Just looking at options. Many teams find goodness from plucking a backup needing more playing time.

Nilsson checks some of those boxes, really just his 1st yr this yr, has great size and his stats weren't atrocious for a filthy D like Edmonton.

Not comparing him to Bishop, but the size and age vs path have some similarities.

 

He's kinda like Ortio.  Hasn't quite put it together to be a true backup.  A RFA this summer.  Likely to be qualified by STL.

Has played well in games where he looked unbeatable.  Followed up with a meh game.  On the Oilers, he had to be lights out every night or he would be considered to be the problem.  He hasn't played a single game with STL yet, so hard to say what he can do behind a NHL defense.

 

Either go Ortio or Nillson, not both.  

[conundrumed]

He's kinda like Ortio.  Hasn't quite put it together to be a true backup.  A RFA this summer.  Likely to be qualified by STL.

Has played well in games where he looked unbeatable.  Followed up with a meh game.  On the Oilers, he had to be lights out every night or he would be considered to be the problem.  He hasn't played a single game with STL yet, so hard to say what he can do behind a NHL defense.

 

Either go Ortio or Nillson, not both.  

My bad. Read a page listing him as UFA.

[jjgallow]

Either go Ortio or Nillson, not both.  

 

Nillson's not my top choice.   but only for one reason....he's a year older than Ortio, and really pushing it to be called "young".

 

On the whole, would it be that bad to have both?  I don't think so.  One of them would probably emerge.   I would go as far as to say one of the three (including Gillies) would probably emerge.   Maybe even two.  On cheap affordable contracts.  That makes a HUGE difference.

 

Maybe I should clarify something about risk:

 

A lot of this gets sorted out in training camp.   Bring one, two, three high-ceiling prospect goalies into training camp.

 

A few pre-season games will remove 80% of the risk.   See what they have.   Make the decision at the start of the regular season.

 

Sure, if NONE of them turn out, a move has to be made at the start of the season.  But MOST likely, one, or two, are going to exceed expectations.

 

 

 

 

 

On Ortio:  He had an off-game, imho.  Not a bad game.  But an off one.

 

Would actually like to see Hiller or Backstrom get a start.  Not successive starts, but just one.  Put Ortio up into the press box like was done with Gaudreau.  Just for one game.  Let him see everything for up there, give him a mental break, then bring him back in. 

 

jmho.

[darth_henning]

Agreed, Ortio had a slightly poor game, but only 2 of the 4 goals were on him. We'd have lost regardless. 

 

(Why do we only ever score 1 goal for this poor guy? He should have like 6 wins since coming up)

 

Still, .88 save percentage, while bad, isn't horrendous. Its a bad game, every goalie has them. 

 

 

BTW, he's now played 8 full games since call-up, which is basically 10% of the season so we can start doing a fair performance evaluation. 

 

0.907, 2.625 GAA

 

Below league average, but still in the top 30. 

 

Remove the full-team breakdown of Ottawa: and it jumps to 0.923, 2.29 GAA which is more-or-less league average. 

 

He'll probably be close to 20 games post-call up by the end of the year. And assuming there's no more Ottawa-like games, I think we can definitely say he's a good bet for a contract for next year. 

[DirtyDeeds]

Nillson's not my top choice.   but only for one reason....he's a year older than Ortio, and really pushing it to be called "young".

 

On the whole, would it be that bad to have both?  I don't think so.  One of them would probably emerge.   I would go as far as to say one of the three (including Gillies) would probably emerge.   Maybe even two.  On cheap affordable contracts.  That makes a HUGE difference.

 

Maybe I should clarify something about risk:

 

A lot of this gets sorted out in training camp.   Bring one, two, three high-ceiling prospect goalies into training camp.

 

A few pre-season games will remove 80% of the risk.   See what they have.   Make the decision at the start of the regular season.

 

Sure, if NONE of them turn out, a move has to be made at the start of the season.  But MOST likely, one, or two, are going to exceed expectations.

 

 

 

 

 

On Ortio:  He had an off-game, imho.  Not a bad game.  But an off one.

 

Would actually like to see Hiller or Backstrom get a start.  Not successive starts, but just one.  Put Ortio up into the press box like was done with Gaudreau.  Just for one game.  Let him see everything for up there, give him a mental break, then bring him back in. 

 

jmho.

We can't afford to waste away the summer into next year on the hopes of 3 prospects who may or may not show something in a few preseason games.

 

The offseason is the best time to find a true #1 goaltender for our needs. Lets not waste it on hopes and prayers a Prospect(ours or some other teams) steps up to the plate for us.

[jjgallow]

We can't afford to waste away the summer into next year on the hopes of 3 prospects who may or may not show something in a few preseason games.

 

The offseason is the best time to find a true #1 goaltender for our needs. Lets not waste it on hopes and prayers a Prospect(ours or some other teams) steps up to the plate for us.

 

What you mean, is we can't afford to waste away the summer to do what's best for the Flame's long term success and rebuild.

 

We've been doing that for too long.  It's what got us into this mess.  Yes, can definitely afford to wait a summer to do things right.   We've been waiting since 1989 already.

 

With regards to finding a true #1 goaltender:   I'll save you the suspense:    

 

We're not going to find one.

 

We're either going to find:

 

• One that was
• One the may be in the future
• One that never will be.

 

 

the choice is ours

                                 (lol, as if it was)

[travel_dude]

Nillson's not my top choice.   but only for one reason....he's a year older than Ortio, and really pushing it to be called "young".

 

On the whole, would it be that bad to have both?  I don't think so.  One of them would probably emerge.   I would go as far as to say one of the three (including Gillies) would probably emerge.   Maybe even two.  On cheap affordable contracts.  That makes a HUGE difference.

 

Maybe I should clarify something about risk:

 

A lot of this gets sorted out in training camp.   Bring one, two, three high-ceiling prospect goalies into training camp.

 

A few pre-season games will remove 80% of the risk.   See what they have.   Make the decision at the start of the regular season.

 

Sure, if NONE of them turn out, a move has to be made at the start of the season.  But MOST likely, one, or two, are going to exceed expectations.

 

 

 

 

 

On Ortio:  He had an off-game, imho.  Not a bad game.  But an off one.

 

Would actually like to see Hiller or Backstrom get a start.  Not successive starts, but just one.  Put Ortio up into the press box like was done with Gaudreau.  Just for one game.  Let him see everything for up there, give him a mental break, then bring him back in. 

 

jmho.

 

First, we would need to trade to get him, so that is a risk to start with.  Then we have to actually have a starter.  So, we go into the training camp with 3 goalies and keep Ortio or Nillson, whoever is the better backup.  Waive the other.  Possibly lose the player for nothing.  If it's Nillson, then we have traded for him to get claimed.  Not likely but possible.

 

Don't worry, Ortio will sit soon enough.  Backstrom will get the STL game most likely.  I don't think he needs to watch any more Flames hockey from the stands.  He's done that enough.

[420since1974]

I'm all for playing Orito for most of the remaining games this season.

 

Insert Backstrom and Hiller for a few games when he needs a rest.

 

I'm not sold on Joni at all, but the Flames have to find out how good/bad he can be when playing regularly in the NHL.

[darth_henning]

I have to disagree with Both DD ad JJ respectively. 

 

1) We are NOT going to get a "true" #1 goalie (aka cup-winner) this summer in UFA or Trade simply because we have cap problems due to 6 contracts that will be almost impossible to off-load, and because any trade to get one will cost someone we can't afford/dont want to trade. 

 

2) We should NOT go into next year with 2 prospects competing for roles and no stability in net because this is a recipe or disaster. One hopefully would work out, but if neither does (or one goes down to injury and the other isn't up to par) we're screwed. And while we get another good pick out of it its a wasted season. 

 

 

When we Drafted Monahan, Gaudreau and Bennett, we didn't drop off every veteran forward the day after the draft to play these guys. We brought in a few veterans (even if contract length has become an issue on a couple), and kept around guys like Glencross, Hudler, Jones, Frolik and Stajan to shelter and mentor them while they grew into the roles. 

 

Monahan took most of a season before he was a 1st line center. Gaudreau took a few months. Bennett has taken a year and still has a little way to go to be a 'great" top 6 player, but is on his way. 

 

We only started shipping out GlenX, Hudler and Jones once it was clear that they'd been passed by the youth and were replaceable. Same thing is happening now on Defence with Kevin, Kulak, Nakladal and Wotherspoon pushing out Wideman, Smid, Engellend and Russell.

 

 

 

We need to take that same approach in goal. In 10% of a season, Ortio is showing decent numbers. Could he be the future? I have no idea. Just like we really didn't know what we actually had in Monahan after 9 games when we were forced to keep him up. 

 

But we put him in a position to find out. We have a solid veteran who can give us decent (ie. league average) play while we develop him. Put Ortio in a position to start as backup or tandem and play his way to starter like the other guys did. Hopefully he can based on play so far. 

 

 

 

 

Blocking up the development system with a "maybe starter" vetran is bad for the future. Going in with two unproven goalies is bad for now and the future. 

 

Right now we are still in the later stages of rebuild. 

 

We have 4/6 top 6 players

 

We have 4/6 bottom 6 players

 

We have 3/4 top 4 D

 

We have 4/2 bottom 2 D

 

We have 0/2 goaltenders

 

We have 6 contracts to off-load

 

 

There's still another 2-3 years before we're cup contenders. But with the right moves in goal this year we are back to playoff contender next season. Tanking is unacceptable. Deluding ourselves that we're cup ready is unacceptable. 

 

We take the next step and finish building 

[MAC331]

I'm all for playing Orito for most of the remaining games this season.

 

Insert Backstrom and Hiller for a few games when he needs a rest.

 

I'm not sold on Joni at all, but the Flames have to find out how good/bad he can be when playing regularly in the NHL.

I'm not  sure what you guys are watching, I think Ortio has been very good. My laugh is at all this poor defense pairings trying to keep up with each other playing most the game on their wrong sides. If not for Ortio I would hate to see what some of these score would ave been,

[conundrumed]

I can't stress enough that nobody is wrong. This is such a big hill that I don't see a "right" answer.

My biggest fear is expensive decisions that might not work out.

Are we talking 3 year contracts for, say, Ward or Reimer?

They're gonna want $5 per minimum. Howard might be the best option tbh, I'd suspect he'd try to prove a point.

Ortio has overseas options that may well offer more than we will, so there's that risk.

Looking at a Montoya or similar provides a bit of stability, but likely not starter consistency.

We have an issue to solve, but I don't see it as one we can solve quickly, nor do I think we should "settle" in the right now.

It's too important of a position to "take what you can get", likely on their terms.

I don't want a panic move, I'd rather have a risky one that costs less, so at least we can solidify other weaknesses.

Call it growing pains.

[MAC331]

I can't stress enough that nobody is wrong. This is such a big hill that I don't see a "right" answer.

My biggest fear is expensive decisions that might not work out.

Are we talking 3 year contracts for, say, Ward or Reimer?

They're gonna want $5 per minimum. Howard might be the best option tbh, I'd suspect he'd try to prove a point.

Ortio has overseas options that may well offer more than we will, so there's that risk.

Looking at a Montoya or similar provides a bit of stability, but likely not starter consistency.

We have an issue to solve, but I don't see it as one we can solve quickly, nor do I think we should "settle" in the right now.

It's too important of a position to "take what you can get", likely on their terms.

I don't want a panic move, I'd rather have a risky one that costs less, so at least we can solidify other weaknesses.

Call it growing pains.

I don't think there should be any doubt finding goalies will be trial and error. We don't know if Gilles and McDonald will be the answer in 2 years either. I think we need a solid tandem for next season because no matter who we end up with the chances are neither has logged a lot of NHL games and will need to build up to it. Should one emerge showing better than the other GREAT, should they show equally GREAT as well. If the both are not good you start over.

 

Ortio is playing himself into the picture for 2016/17.

[hayen]

i saw concerns on Kinkaid (NJ) which are merited but when he gets some regular time he seems to gain confidence. His numbers are solid. I think nerves got the better of him in the Pittsburg match up, his overall numbers are decent and when settled in he produces. Maybe a cheap salary for at least a year and he tandems with Ortio. Both show they can provide a good performance and then maybe Gillies pops in when he is ready.