Goaltending

[Carty]

Let it go.

 

      

[Carty]

      

[travel_dude]

Gotta feel for Brossoit.  Faced 27 shots, let in 6.  Second night of a B2B for the team, but they looked terrible in front of him.  At least he faced an easier team than the Flyers.  

[jjgallow]

Ortio confirmed to start Satruday. 

 

.....ok....

[cross16]

Was hoping for Flyerfans opinion on this too, but in wondering if there is appetite in Philly to move Steve Mason? Neurvirth seems to have taken the net and 4.1mill for a 1B type goalie is a lot but then again Hextall has gotten the flyers out of cap jail. Can't imagine he would be overly expensive to acquire and I would be quite intrigued and happy with a Mason - Ortio combo for next season.

Mason isn't good enough for then he just walks as a UFA. If he is good then you try and re sign him.

[MAC331]

Was hoping for Flyerfans opinion on this too, but in wondering if there is appetite in Philly to move Steve Mason? Neurvirth seems to have taken the net and 4.1mill for a 1B type goalie is a lot but then again Hextall has gotten the flyers out of cap jail. Can't imagine he would be overly expensive to acquire and I would be quite intrigued and happy with a Mason - Ortio combo for next season.

Mason isn't good enough for then he just walks as a UFA. If he is good then you try and re sign him.

Hey cross, Schneider out in NJ so we can see what Kinkaid looks like for the rest of the season.

[DirtyDeeds]

Hey cross, Schneider out in NJ so we can see what Kinkaid looks like for the rest of the season.

Which brings up the question does this now put a lot of importance on teams (NJ in this case) to sign their talented backups? At very least this would drive up the price, wouldn't it?

[jjgallow]

Or.....we could watch an existing prospect we already have go up against one of the best offensive teams in the league, and hold his own, at just barely 24 years of age.

 

Rather than all the supposedly "better" goaltenders being discussed, who are two years older with declining save percentages.

 

Just me...

[MAC331]

Which brings up the question does this now put a lot of importance on teams (NJ in this case) to sign their talented backups? At very least this would drive up the price, wouldn't it?

Hard to say in blocked situations if they can get needed talent back. There are a lot of back up goalies UFA this offseason.

Or.....we could watch an existing prospect we already have go up against one of the best offensive teams in the league, and hold his own, at just barely 24 years of age.

 

Rather than all the supposedly "better" goaltenders being discussed, who are two years older with declining save percentages.

 

Just me...

We will need two goalies next year regardless. Watch whoever you want.

[jjgallow]

Watch whoever you want.

 

So you're okay if they're on the Flames, then?

[MAC331]

So you're okay if they're on the Flames, then?

Why don't you elaborate on who the _ you are talking about.

[conundrumed]

Or.....we could watch an existing prospect we already have go up against one of the best offensive teams in the league, and hold his own, at just barely 24 years of age.

 

Rather than all the supposedly "better" goaltenders being discussed, who are two years older with declining save percentages.

It's discussed, and it's worthwhile. It doesn't count out Ortio.

He's been solid.

Enough of the "personal affront" card...

[Carty]

Ortio did a pretty good job looking after the net today...

 

[travel_dude]

Ortio did a pretty good job looking after the net today...

 

 

If only we could score 3+ goals in every game he started or continues to start.  It seems like the usual number scored against him, unlike Hiller who like to let in 4 or more.

[kehatch]

Or.....we could watch an existing prospect we already have go up against one of the best offensive teams in the league, and hold his own, at just barely 24 years of age.

Rather than all the supposedly "better" goaltenders being discussed, who are two years older with declining save percentages.

Just me...

Your one of the few humans on the planet that would be comfortable putting all of the eggs in that basket. The guy is playing for a contract, not the undisputed starter position.

Having more then one option in net is the only smart move. If Ortio is solid next season that is great. That isn't a bad thing. But expecting G him to be the starter with Joe Backup on the bench is a serious gamble that no GM would be willing to take.

[cccsberg]

Your one of the few humans on the planet that would be comfortable putting all of the eggs in that basket. The guy is playing for a contract, not the undisputed starter position.

Having more then one option in net is the only smart move. If Ortio is solid next season that is great. That isn't a bad thing. But expecting G him to be the starter with Joe Backup on the bench is a serious gamble that no GM would be willing to take.

That's true, but I might be willing to go with Ramo and Ortio, assuming Ramo continues to progress over the summer.

[darth_henning]

I don't think anyone would advise putting all our eggs in the Ortio basket. We still need a proven NHL goaltender. 

 

BUT, if Ortio finishes off the season in the form he's been since call-up, then I think it will be worth trying to see how much of the load he can take. 

 

 

Ortio did a pretty good job looking after the net today...

 

 

So in full games since call-up: 

 

0.946 2GA

0.941 2GA

0.800 5GA

0.920 2GA

0.935 2GA

 

We were all wondering if Ortio could eve find consistency at a professional level. Seems like he's starting to show a bit of some. Question will be the next few games since its still a pretty small sample. 

 

Definitely looking like he needs a contract for next year to see what he can bring. 

[420since1974]

Agreed, a small sample size.

 

If he is our backup next season at $660k, we can probably afford up to $4M for a starter.

[darth_henning]

Even if he makes a full 1 mil (which isn't impossible), we can still afford 4 for the other tender. 

 

If he can keep this up for the rest of the season though, I see if he can play a starters workload next season. 

[jjgallow]

Even if he makes a full 1 mil (which isn't impossible), we can still afford 4 for the other tender. 

 

If he can keep this up for the rest of the season though, I see if he can play a starters workload next season. 

 

If he keeps this up, and continues to develop, the only player in his way is Gilles.  Not Hiller, not Ramo, not any of the medicore, questional 26 year old players mentioned in trade discussions here.

 

That's not to say Gillies isn't in his way.    He clearly will be.  But those looking for 26 year old "fixes"...reallly?   Look at what we have.

[darth_henning]

If he keeps this up, and continues to develop, the only player in his way is Gilles.  Not Hiller, not Ramo, not any of the medicore, questional 26 year old players mentioned in trade discussions here.

 

That's not to say Gillies isn't in his way.    He clearly will be.  But those looking for 26 year old "fixes"...reallly?   Look at what we have.

 

The problem is that that's a BIG if. 

 

I like Ortio. I think he has starter potential if he keeps playing like this. 

 

BUT, he's lost most of the last 2 years between injuries, bouncing between leagues, and bluntly inconsistent play. 

 

I think we're starting to see what he's really capable of, but the question is whether this is a short-term performance or sustainable. 

 

 

Right now no "fix" that we can afford (5 mil would be literally breaking the bank next year on our current contracts) will be a Stanley-Cup-Caliber starter. So we're looking at a league-average tender for a short term contract until either a) Gillies is a cup starter or b ) we buy a cup starter in trade or UFA. 

 

Ortio at this point looks promising, an the way he's playing a starting position with the flames is his to lose next year. If the flames are smart he gets a 660K - 1M one year "show me" contract beside a 4-mil proven NHL-average tender. If Ortio is ready to take the reigns, that would be fantastic. But if he's not, we still need a capable NHL tender to see us through the next 2-3 years pre-Gillies. Otherwise no matter how good our forwards and defense are we'll be fighting for draft position every year.

[JTech780]

If he keeps this up, and continues to develop, the only player in his way is Gilles. Not Hiller, not Ramo, not any of the medicore, questional 26 year old players mentioned in trade discussions here.

That's not to say Gillies isn't in his way. He clearly will be. But those looking for 26 year old "fixes"...reallly? Look at what we have.

Ortio has played well the last few games. But all he has done has earned himself a contract and a chance to win the back up job.

We still need a quality starting goalie next year and potentially for the foreseeable future.

[jjgallow]

The problem is that that's a BIG if. 

 

I like Ortio. I think he has starter potential if he keeps playing like this. 

 

BUT, he's lost most of the last 2 years between injuries, bouncing between leagues, and bluntly inconsistent play. 

 

I think we're starting to see what he's really capable of, but the question is whether this is a short-term performance or sustainable. 

 

 

I agree with much/most of what you wrote.   Fairly on par with my views, and it's nice to finally see that on goalies threads like this after about 6 solid years of disagreements lol.

 

With regards to the sustainability, Yes, it's a risk, but not as much of a risk as the culture/organization here has tended to believe in the past.  And it will be a much smaller risk after we've given him enough games to know what we have in him.

 

We have had a habit, with Ortio and many many others, of seeing them play literally One bad game, and saying "Oh, the NHL's exposed him, he's done"...and banishing a young talented prospect for years, or more commonly, for forever.

 

That's actually Not realistic.  The more Probable explanation is that the goaltender had a Bad game.  And yes, probably displayed some of their weaknesses, like going down to early, in that bad game.   But somehow we forget that Every goalie on earth has weaknesses, AND has bad games.   A more realistic take on this is that the goalie had a bad game, and needs to bounce back.  Yes, they probably still have more development to do.    But we have a history here of then assuming "the goalie just isn't ready", based off of one game.    If one of our veterans has a bad game, or 5 bad games, we play them out of it.   But when a rookie does, they're "not ready", and banished.   In most of these cases, if we play them through it, we would find that they are ready.

 

I was Extremely happy to see the Flames allowing Ortio to bounce back from a bad game this year, just like they do with their veterans, rather than panicking.   And yes, Ortio has more development to do.  But instead of interpreting that as "not being ready", it can be interpreted as having More Upside.  Which should be a good thing.

 

No matter who we bring in or don't, there is risk.    With Ortio, there is significant upside.  

 

First, and I think we all finally agree on this now:   We need to see what we have in Ortio.  At least another 10 games to go there.

 

Second, once we have a better idea what we have, we talk contract (or not).  By that time, the risk is significantly less.

 

 

There is significant upside here.    If we sign Ortio to a cheap 3-5 year backup deal, we have every reason to believe he will continue to improve over that span of time.

 

It is Reasonable to assume that during that contract span, he May develop into a starter goalie.   If that happens, we have an Incredibly cheap starter on our hands, and in the prime years for this young core, we have MUCH more flexibility with our cap.

 

If he develops into a backup, my guess is he would be a very good backup.

 

The chances of him regressing himself out of the NHL (resulting in a trade or buyout) is honestly Not a very likely scenario.   We'll know more in 10 games.   One or two of which will be bad games.    But there is a lot more Upside in a 24 year old NHL-ready goaltender, than there is Risk.

[cross16]

If he keeps this up, and continues to develop, the only player in his way is Gilles.  Not Hiller, not Ramo, not any of the medicore, questional 26 year old players mentioned in trade discussions here.

 

That's not to say Gillies isn't in his way.    He clearly will be.  But those looking for 26 year old "fixes"...reallly?   Look at what we have.

Pretty much everyone knows what the flames have. They only have 1 goalie in the organization who is an option for next season and while yes they have s great prospect, he is coming off surgery and hasn't played even 10 professional games yet. So unless your plan is run Ortio- Gilles next season than sure the flames are set but IMO that is an irresponsible decision.

Flames need a goalie for next season no question about it adm the FA market sucks, IMO. Steve Mason is not a fix it would be about giving you a potentially really good 1-2 punch next season and with Mason only being under contract for 1 season it keeps options open. If Ortio can step up and become the starter then let Mason walk. If Ortio doesn't step up and be the starter then at least you've got someone who can give you league avg or better goaltending while you develop Gilles, who I think will take at least 2 season before he can play meaningful NHL games.

[jjgallow]

Pretty much everyone knows what the flames have. They only have 1 goalie in the organization who is an option for next season and while yes they have s great prospect, he is coming off surgery and hasn't played even 10 professional games yet. So unless your plan is run Ortio- Gilles next season than sure the flames are set but IMO that is an irresponsible decision.

Flames need a goalie for next season no question about it adm the FA market sucks, IMO. Steve Mason is not a fix it would be about giving you a potentially really good 1-2 punch next season and with Mason only being under contract for 1 season it keeps options open. If Ortio can step up and become the starter then let Mason walk. If Ortio doesn't step up and be the starter then at least you've got someone who can give you league avg or better goaltending while you develop Gilles, who I think will take at least 2 season before he can play meaningful NHL games.

 

What the Flames have is an opportunity.  To finally develop quality goaltenders, and acquire elite prospects.  Finally, they don't have all their positions tied up in brutal contracts they can't get out of.   I am bewildered by the perception that they have a problem.  It's the first time, in years, that they don't.

 

The plan right now, should be to see what we have in Ortio.   Period.    A month ago, most everyone on this thread was sure that Ortio was Europe-bound.    All of a sudden, Hartley was forced to do something reasonable and actually play him.   Now, we're talking backup. 

 

What will we be talking about a month from now, or another 10 games in?    You may feel that your opinion won't change, and that's fine.  Just understand that the opinion on here IS changing,  significantly, and that neither you or I speak for everyone else.

 

On being responsible:

 

Signing a 28 year old mediocre (27th in the league, like us) goalie in the summer who's save percentage has declined year over year is Absolutely a short term fix.  And in my mind, the least responsible thing we could do.   When this team peaks and makes a run for the cup, Mason will be like Hiller is now.  But worse.  Hiller actually Was elite, at one time.

 

Mason will cost us upwards of $5 million, will want a long term contract, and we will take a huge cap hit for a declining product that Has Proven to get a top NHL team Not into the playoffs, consistently, in his prime.

 

Taking that kind of cap hit, strictly because we are afraid, of the small possibility that both Ortio and Gillies and Ramo all bomb next year....in my mind is not rational and is irresponsible use of the cap.

 

Should we replenish our prospect pool with nearly NHL-ready prospects?  Yes.  So IF Everyone bombs, we have others to draw from?  Yes.  That's a reasonable move with little or no effect on the cap.

 

An example....maybe Alex Lyon would sign a 2-way in the summer.   Who knows?  Best goalie in US College, 23, ready for pro.  Not sure that he wants to wait for his last year of school.

 

On par with Gillies, really.  Plays a positional style, perfect for those of us who don't like Ortio's methods.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=114768

 

Bottom line, I agree with you on one thing:  We have a bit too much riding on Ortio and Gillies.   So, get another one of them and don't wreck the cap doing it.