Goaltending

[phoenix66]

We made the playoffs last year because Hiller played like a starter last year, and he was a big reason why we made it to the 2nd round.

Ramo might not have been the reason why we lost to Anaheim, but he wasn't exactly all that great either.

The Kings and Blackhawks both have top 10 goaltenders that they spend $6mill on and they seem to do alright.

Like I've said many times.Crawford is one of the most average goalies in the league. But the team in front of him is the story.

You put Crawford in Toronto, they're still cellar dwellers. I don't even think he's an upgrade to what they have.

[jjgallow]

We've talked a lot on here today.

 

Ortio's play was the only talk that mattered, though

[kehatch]

Like I've said many times.Crawford is one of the most average goalies in the league. But the team in front of him is the story.

You put Crawford in Toronto, they're still cellar dwellers. I don't even think he's an upgrade to what they have.

You might have trouble convincing a lot of people Crawford is average. Including Chicago who gave him a 6 x 6 contract.

We've talked a lot on here today.

Ortio's play was the only talk that mattered, though.

If goaltending is our biggest problem....based on the last two games we'd better acquire someone who can get consistent shutouts.

Sensationalize much?

[jjgallow]

Sensationalize much?

 

Ummm...I'm the only one on here not trying to overhaul a working system.  Not my fault Hartley didn't try it all year.

[cross16]

Ortio was "ok" tonight and maybe a little better than ok but he wasn't great. Was a weak first goal and he is still shaky on a lot of pucks but they arn't hurting him. It's a dangerous way to keep playing though and this is the same script as last year. Very good and then slowly gets worse. I hope the trend is different this year

[travel_dude]

I could have sworn we made the playoffs last year with half that tandem.. And Ortio tossed in 5 great games of his own.

Ortio isn't the reason we lost to the King's the other night..and Ramo was certainly not the reason we lost that round to Anaheim last year.many losses this year Ramo has been a top star.

My point,is that goaltenders is not why we are missing the playoffs this year.

It's because we only have 1 1/2 lines of scoring. We have a defence that is still growing together.

By your definition Miller should have brought St Louis a cup..howd that work out?

We had kipper for how many years? How far did we get after 2004?

Not saying I wouldn't love to have a game stealing goalie but at the same time we could have Price back there and we would likely have a similar record.

We are going to have about 24mill to sign about 12 players. Johnny and Sean will get. 10-12 of that..you would give a goalie 5-6

That leaves about 6mill for 9 players

 

15th in the league in goals for?  Don't think that scoring is that bad. Around 9 less than the Islanders, but their differential is +25 and our is -23.  Sounds like goaltending to me.

[JTech780]

Ortio has been good the last two games, but he has to work on his rebound control. Let's see how he does when the book gets out on him. He goes down almost as early as Hiller and he kicks out juicy rebounds.

[jjgallow]

Our defence is average, or offence is average,

 

Yes...our goaltending has been below average.

 

Bringing in a franchise goaltender won't make the rest of the team a contender team.

 

We'll still struggle to make the playoffs, fight to stay above average.

 

 

A franchise goaltender would just mask the areas where imrprovements are needed the most.

 

Our goaltending will get better.  But other things need to get better with it.

[cross16]

Our defence is average, or offence is average,

 

Yes...our goaltending has been below average.

 

Bringing in a franchise goaltender won't make the rest of the team a contender team.

 

We'll still struggle to make the playoffs, fight to stay above average.

 

 

A franchise goaltender would just mask the areas where imrprovements are needed the most.

 

Our goaltending will get better.  But other things need to get better with it.

This isn't directed at you JJ so don't take it personal because I know others have said this too, but I just absolutely hate this argument. Can't even stand it to be honest.

A franchise goalie does not hide inefficiencies. When the flames had kipper we all still knew they had defensive issues. This year even though they had price people know the Canadians were probably going to struggle to score goals. All a franchise goalie does is bail you out from time to time so that not every mistake is in the back of your net but anyone with a set of eyes can still see the deficiencies on a team, franchise goalie or not.

[JTech780]

Our defence is average, or offence is average,

Yes...our goaltending has been below average.

Bringing in a franchise goaltender won't make the rest of the team a contender team.

We'll still struggle to make the playoffs, fight to stay above average.

A franchise goaltender would just mask the areas where imrprovements are needed the most.

Our goaltending will get better. But other things need to get better with it.

Nobody is saying that the rest of the team is fine the way it is, there are holes, and goaltending is the biggest hole.

A franchise goalie might not make us a contender today, but it would make us a playoff team and that is the first step to becoming a contender.

This idea that a goalie masks problems is silly. A goalie is part of the team and if you have a franchise goalie and he helps you win more games, that is somehow a bad thing.

Why can't a team continue to improve its lineup while having a top end goalie?

[jjgallow]

Why can't a team continue to improve its lineup while having a top end goalie?

 

I'll answer that with a question, for a change, rather than a statement.

 

Why were we unable to do this with Kipper?

[JTech780]

I'll answer that with a question, for a change, rather than a statement.

Why were we unable to do this with Kipper?

I think they tried, but I don't think management and coaching were up to par.

[jjgallow]

I think they tried, but I don't think management and coaching were up to par.

 

By what measurement?  I'm assuming, not this one?

http://www.statista.com/statistics/196794/revenue-of-the-calgary-flames-since-2006/

 

According to that measurement, management was doing...exactly what they were supposed to.

 

The only drop in revenue the Flames ever had, was when Kipper dropped off, and retired.

 

Which was followed by the only actual meaningful changes to the organization.

 

 

Find another Kipper, return to mediocre performance (which pays Very well in a hockey town)....do we think the incentive will be somehow different for the owners next time?

[CheersMan]

I'll answer that with a question, for a change, rather than a statement.

 

Why were we unable to do this with Kipper?

 

Kipper was in net in 04.  Remember game 6 when the puck crossing the line for a SC win?  The goal was never looked at because the sport was still in the archaic period for goal review.

[cross16]

Comparing the flames under kipper and the flames now and moving forward it's not comparable. Right now, today, the flames have been center play and depth than they ever had during the kipper tenure. I even saying that knowing that Bennett can, and likely will, get better.

Clubs were built very differently so I don't think the argument that well we couldn't win one with kipper so why get another kipper, doesn't hold a lot of weight IMO.

[CheersMan]

MTL with a health Price would be playoff bound, adding pieces as we speak and a legitimate contender. 

[rickross]

Ortio has looked solid the last 2 games. I was hoping he could have got the shutout let alone the win but he's been good. Now if he keeps it up what do we sign Ortio at? He's got a small sample of games for leverage so I don't think we'd even have to pay overpay him at this point. He could still come in under $2milli

[JTech780]

By what measurement? I'm assuming, not this one?

http://www.statista.com/statistics/196794/revenue-of-the-calgary-flames-since-2006/

According to that measurement, management was doing...exactly what they were supposed to.

The only drop in revenue the Flames ever had, was when Kipper dropped off, and retired.

Which was followed by the only actual meaningful changes to the organization.

Find another Kipper, return to mediocre performance (which pays Very well in a hockey town)....do we think the incentive will be somehow different for the owners next time?

So we shouldn't get a franchise goalie because the team might make more money?

We have a very good core in place, the only thing missing from the core is a top end goalie.

[CheersMan]

Ortio has looked solid the last 2 games. I was hoping he could have got the shutout let alone the win but he's been good. Now if he keeps it up what do we sign Ortio at? He's got a small sample of games for leverage so I don't think we'd even have to pay overpay him at this point. He could still come in under $2milli

 

Ortio is still fighting for game starts and he is running out of time.  I think we need to let the season unfold before making Ortio decisions. 

[kehatch]

By what measurement? I'm assuming, not this one?

http://www.statista.com/statistics/196794/revenue-of-the-calgary-flames-since-2006/

According to that measurement, management was doing...exactly what they were supposed to.

The only drop in revenue the Flames ever had, was when Kipper dropped off, and retired.

Which was followed by the only actual meaningful changes to the organization.

Find another Kipper, return to mediocre performance (which pays Very well in a hockey town)....do we think the incentive will be somehow different for the owners next time?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this is? The only way to build a team is with crap goaltending otherwise the team will make money and the ownership won't allow management to make the team better? What a load of nonsense.

This isn't brain surgery. The Flames have three good centres to build around. They have three good top 3 D to build around. They have a couple of good wingers to build around. They don't have a good goalie to build around.

Also not brain surgery. Trying to develop players in an environment where every mistake turns into a goal isn't good. Trying to build a team without good goaltending isn't good. Waiting until your on the verge to start your search for a goalie (and likely fail) isn't good.

Again not brain surgery. If Ortio and Gilles turn out and you have another starter in your pocket that isn't a bad thing. It's like having too many top end D or too many number one centres. It would be a fantastic problem to have. However if they dont turn it (very possible) and you haven't found a starter...

The Flames need a goalie. I can't even believe that is a discussion.

[DirtyDeeds]

Like I've said many times.Crawford is one of the most average goalies in the league. But the team in front of him is the story.

You put Crawford in Toronto, they're still cellar dwellers. I don't even think he's an upgrade to what they have.

How many years does he have to put up top 5 numbers in the NHL until you change your mind about him being an avg goaltender?

 

 

I will say this he has been consistent the last 3 years and managed a 66% + win/loss ratio. He is welcome to be my goaltender on my team anyday.

[CheersMan]

Do you have any idea how ridiculous this is? The only way to build a team is with crap goaltending otherwise the team will make money and the ownership won't allow management to make the team better? What a load of nonsense.

This isn't brain surgery. The Flames have three good centres to build around. They have three good top 3 D to build around. They have a couple of good wingers to build around. They don't have a good goalie to build around.

Also not brain surgery. Trying to develop players in an environment where every mistake turns into a goal isn't good. Trying to build a team without good goaltending isn't good. Waiting until your on the verge to start your search for a goalie (and likely fail) isn't good.

Again not brain surgery. If Ortio and Gilles turn out and you have another starter in your pocket that isn't a bad thing. It's like having too many top end D or too many number one centres. It would be a fantastic problem to have. However if they dont turn it (very possible) and you haven't found a starter...

The Flames need a goalie. I can't even believe that is a discussion.

 

Wait a minute, I see what you just did there.  You just performed a minor procedure on unknowing recipients cerebral cortex without him even knowing.  That was smooth.

[phoenix66]

How many years does he have to put up top 5 numbers in the NHL until you change your mind about him being an avg goaltender?

I will say this he has been consistent the last 3 years and managed a 66% + win/loss ratio. He is welcome to be my goaltender on my team anyday.

Stats are misleading.. Show me stats on 2Nd and 3Rd shots? Odd man rushes? He is an OK goalie in that he consistently stops the first shot if he sees it..which he usually does because he has an amazing team in front of him.

They also won a cup with Niemi,what he do for San Jose?

My point is your goalie needs to match your team. An elite goalie on one team is a sieve on another (Dubnyk? Osgood?)

Again if you take away the 1St 20 games where the entire team was awful and the goalies especially so, our goaltendung has been good and we have won more games because of it than we have lost.

Another year when more money is off the books and we have more holes plugged maybe we will have the money for that and it will help. Right now to give the money to one guy instead of less for 2 makes no sense and what area are we going to hurt to get it done?

[cross16]

If you think Crawford is only an "Ok" goalie I would suggest to watch more blackhawk games. While I would never call Crawford elite, in the grand scheme of things, he is one of the top 10 goalies in the league without question. Crawford is actually probably the biggest reason they are where they are right now. Hawks were not very good early in the season and he was excelent and held them in a lot of games.

 

People get the wrong impression of Crawford becuase you see him lay an egg or two during every cup run, but the guy is a very good goalie. 

[robrob1974]

Comparing the flames under kipper and the flames now and moving forward it's not comparable. Right now, today, the flames have been center play and depth than they ever had during the kipper tenure. I even saying that knowing that Bennett can, and likely will, get better.

Clubs were built very differently so I don't think the argument that well we couldn't win one with kipper so why get another kipper, doesn't hold a lot of weight IMO.

After getting to the SCF in '04, we also left the plan and went into win now mode. The Flames were a team that should've kept building as we were a team that, with Kipper, catapulted us into higher rankings.

If we kept building on top of our young talent, things might've been different. Our biggest problem was chasing a dream, a player who could play with Iggy.

Getting another Kipper would be great for us, but we have to stick to the plan.