Goaltending

[Cowtownguy]

Thing is.. Arizona has the goaltending coaching(Sean Burke) to bring mentally fragile goaltenders(Devan Dubnyk) back from the dead.

 

I have a feeling that any move that would dump Hiller on Arizona would come back to haunt us..

I don't know what Burke does down there, but he seems to be an absolutely amazing goalie coach. He must be using a combination of drugs and electro-convulsive shock therapy or something. It seems Arizona is goalie rehab and Toronto is goalie graveyard.

 

I guess that Treliving did not want to take up another roster spot and obtain Khudobin. I am not surprised and that is why I asked people above why he might not make the deal. Either that, or he thinks Khudobin is not much of an upgrade and/or it will adversely impact the rest of the team.

[JTech780]

Thing is.. Arizona has the goaltending coaching(Sean Burke) to bring mentally fragile goaltenders(Devan Dubnyk) back from the dead.

I have a feeling that any move that would dump Hiller on Arizona would come back to haunt us..

I am pretty sure Burke left the organization in pursuit of management opportunities.

[Cowtownguy]

I am pretty sure Burke left the organization in pursuit of management opportunities.

I vaguely remember that he moved in a couple of different positions with Arizona and then I think left the NHL. Did he ever sign with another team? I have not heard about him in some time.

[JTech780]

I vaguely remember that he moved in a couple of different positions with Arizona and then I think left the NHL. Did he ever sign with another team? I have not heard about him in some time.

I just read an article from November that he has been recovering from double hip surgery, but that he is ready to get back into management. He was assistant GM/goalie coach with Arizona before he left for new opportunities.

I wish we could get him into the organization even if it isn't as a goalie coach.

[xstrike]

Good luck xstrike, see you back soon!

 

 

I has dog. No pic because Soviet internet is crap. Flying back in a few hours.

[s4xon]

I have to really hand it to Ramo tonight.  Not only did he play great, but he had the foresight at one point in the game to jump in the air and try and avoid a shot from behind the goal line in the corner. 

 

Not sure what player it was, but he was aiming for a bank shot. 

[MAC331]

I like Ramo's play and I know there is a lot of talk on here about replacing all 3 of our goalies however putting out 6M or more for a top 10 goalie may not be possible. This team has Gaudreau and Monahan up for significant contract this coming offseason and Bennett not far behind them.

 

Do we need Ramo to be better, YES, can he be, I think he can along with a D corp that is better.

[travel_dude]

I like Ramo's play and I know there is a lot of talk on here about replacing all 3 of our goalies however putting out 6M or more for a top 10 goalie may not be possible. This team has Gaudreau and Monahan up for significant contract this coming offseason and Bennett not far behind them.

 

Do we need Ramo to be better, YES, can he be, I think he can along with a D corp that is better.

 

Ramo may be able to replicate this kind of game, but he hasn't been able to do it for any long string of games.  He showed that last year with B2B shutouts followed by a let-down game.  It happens.  Ramo could turn into Carey Price in the next few years, but we are concerned with today and next season.  Making a team better today and for the future is always the goal.  Goalies are too important to waste time waiting for them to recover their form.  

 

I don't see how Hiller is going to get out of the doghouse.  He was just ok in his last two games.  Ramo gets the start after those two Hiller wins.  When is Hiller going to be trusted again?  He is in the same boat as Ortio now. 

[MAC331]

Ramo may be able to replicate this kind of game, but he hasn't been able to do it for any long string of games.  He showed that last year with B2B shutouts followed by a let-down game.  It happens.  Ramo could turn into Carey Price in the next few years, but we are concerned with today and next season.  Making a team better today and for the future is always the goal.  Goalies are too important to waste time waiting for them to recover their form.  

 

I don't see how Hiller is going to get out of the doghouse.  He was just ok in his last two games.  Ramo gets the start after those two Hiller wins.  When is Hiller going to be trusted again?  He is in the same boat as Ortio now. 

Funny you should mention Price, how many years did it take him to become a shining star....lots. There were times I didn't think Price was going to make it in the NHL. I like a lot of what I see in Ramo because he competes aggressively. Let's also not forget that Kiprasoff had stinkers and his claim to fame was bouncing back from them.

 

Our reality is finding a good goalie we can pay between 4 to 5M and make it work.

[JTech780]

Funny you should mention Price, how many years did it take him to become a shining star....lots. There were times I didn't think Price was going to make it in the NHL. I like a lot of what I see in Ramo because he competes aggressively. Let's also not forget that Kiprasoff had stinkers and his claim to fame was bouncing back from them.

Our reality is finding a good goalie we can pay between 4 to 5M and make it work.

Honestly unless we get lucky or Gillies becomes a top end goalie while he is still young, I don't see us being cup contenders with good goaltending and making it work. Just my opinion but if we can get a top 10 goalie and have him signed 5+ years I move one of our big 3 to do it.

[DirtyDeeds]

Funny you should mention Price, how many years did it take him to become a shining star....lots. There were times I didn't think Price was going to make it in the NHL. I like a lot of what I see in Ramo because he competes aggressively. Let's also not forget that Kiprasoff had stinkers and his claim to fame was bouncing back from them.

 

Our reality is finding a good goalie we can pay between 4 to 5M and make it work.

Price was in competition with Halak until 2009-10 season, at which time Montreal made the decision to keep Price. He had the poorer stats of the two that season.

 

Price had played only 3 seasons in the NHL until they traded Halak.

 

I like Ramo's play and I know there is a lot of talk on here about replacing all 3 of our goalies however putting out 6M or more for a top 10 goalie may not be possible. This team has Gaudreau and Monahan up for significant contract this coming offseason and Bennett not far behind them.

 

Do we need Ramo to be better, YES, can he be, I think he can along with a D corp that is better.

If we can get a top 10 goalie then I would do this in a heartbeat(pay 6m). We are paying more than that to Hiller and Ramo combined. We are paying 8.3m now for our Backup and starter combo.....

[travel_dude]

Funny you should mention Price, how many years did it take him to become a shining star....lots. There were times I didn't think Price was going to make it in the NHL. I like a lot of what I see in Ramo because he competes aggressively. Let's also not forget that Kiprasoff had stinkers and his claim to fame was bouncing back from them.

 

Our reality is finding a good goalie we can pay between 4 to 5M and make it work.

 

In his 20 year old season he posted pretty decent numbers for a 1b goalie:  41 gp, 21w, 12 losses, 0.920 SV% 2.56 GAA.

Not bad for a guy his age.

 

Even if we signed a $6m goalie, we still have ways to fit the top guys in.  If it needs to happen, it will.  We don't need to then spend >$2m on a backup.

[Cowtownguy]

It is insane to pay that much for two goalies who are playing so inconsistently. The question is who do you go after, what do you give up,  and when? I really wonder if management is thinking of taking a risk on Bernier with Ramo as the starter. With the cap hit and his recent play, that is seriously risky of course. Perhaps there are few more attractive alternatives. I wish we could pull Bishop from Tampa. 

 

I think Hiller needs to retire soon. I just hope that the Flames give him one more chance when Ramo has a string of bad games. I really doubt that the Flames sign him next year.

[cross16]

The only thing that could make sense with the Leafs and Bernier is a HIller for Bernier swap. I saw that assuming that Berniers trade value is basically zero right now becuaes the next year of 4 mill kills his trade value. If he has any trade value, which I personally doubt, then they won't do HIler. The reason the Leafs could consdier it is if they have to move him, have no takers, get something back you can play right now and maybe get an asset for at the deadline. Flames consider it becuae you don't give up much and you can risk the potetnial he fits here.

 

I personally wouldn't do it becuaes i'm not a Bernier fan and never have been but its the only thing I see that makes a bit of sense for each side. 

[JTech780]

The only thing that could make sense with the Leafs and Bernier is a HIller for Bernier swap. I saw that assuming that Berniers trade value is basically zero right now becuaes the next year of 4 mill kills his trade value. If he has any trade value, which I personally doubt, then they won't do HIler. The reason the Leafs could consdier it is if they have to move him, have no takers, get something back you can play right now and maybe get an asset for at the deadline. Flames consider it becuae you don't give up much and you can risk the potetnial he fits here.

 

I personally wouldn't do it becuaes i'm not a Bernier fan and never have been but its the only thing I see that makes a bit of sense for each side. 

 

I agree. The only I would even begin to think about trading for Bernier is if Hiller is going the other way, but even then I still don't think I would do it because that $4.15m next year could really bite us. I would rather keep options open for a more legit goaltender in the offseason.

[travel_dude]

I agree. The only I would even begin to think about trading for Bernier is if Hiller is going the other way, but even then I still don't think I would do it because that $4.15m next year could really bite us. I would rather keep options open for a more legit goaltender in the offseason.

 

What is the worst case for trading Hiller for Bernier.  You have to buy out Bernier at a cap hit of $2.7m next year and $750k the following.  Or you waive him and his cap hit is $3.2m.

 

You also can't bank on what may happen in the off-season.  There may be no goalies or tons.  Bishop could crap the bed the rest of the season.  The asking price could be crazy-high next summer. 

[JTech780]

What is the worst case for trading Hiller for Bernier. You have to buy out Bernier at a cap hit of $2.7m next year and $750k the following. Or you waive him and his cap hit is $3.2m.

You also can't bank on what may happen in the off-season. There may be no goalies or tons. Bishop could crap the bed the rest of the season. The asking price could be crazy-high next summer.

Those are pretty bad worst case scenarios and are more than likely to happen than Vernier becoming a number 1.

[cross16]

Depends on how you view Bernier. I don't view him as a number 1 and never have so i don't think there is any point to getting him based on that fact alone.

 

Financially, I agree with Jtech its a pretty scary situation. Getting stuck with Bernier at 4 mill for another year to be terrible is very scary when you think of the raises this team needs to give and 2.7 in dead cap space is not much better. Thats ALOT of dead cap space for a team that won't be able to afford it. 

[JTech780]

Depends on how you view Bernier. I don't view him as a number 1 and never have so i don't think there is any point to getting him based on that fact alone.

Financially, I agree with Jtech its a pretty scary situation. Getting stuck with Bernier at 4 mill for another year to be terrible is very scary when you think of the raises this team needs to give and 2.7 in dead cap space is not much better. Thats ALOT of dead cap space for a team that won't be able to afford it.

I am already of the mind set that of Smid or Raymond or both will be bought out in the summer. So adding another potential buyout candidate doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

[travel_dude]

I am already of the mind set that of Smid or Raymond or both will be bought out in the summer. So adding another potential buyout candidate doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

 

If I was BT, I would never let that though even enter my decision making process.  I would add Bernier if I thought he was a goalie that could be better than Hiller and Ortio.  Otherwise it makes no sense.  

 

GM's either make calculated risks or they bet the farm.  Raymond was a calculated risk.  It didn't work out.  Going into the off-season with no goalies signed is a huge risk.  Your scouts and goalie coaches have to provide you with info to make those decisions.  If Ramo becomes a true #1 in CGY, he is going to cost $4-6m.  Still need a backup.

 

Anyway, I am not arguing for bringing in Bernier, just that we could do worse riding out Hiller.  Dubie is an example of a goalie that rebounded after a bad season.  Just saying. 

[JTech780]

If I was BT, I would never let that though even enter my decision making process. I would add Bernier if I thought he was a goalie that could be better than Hiller and Ortio. Otherwise it makes no sense.

GM's either make calculated risks or they bet the farm. Raymond was a calculated risk. It didn't work out. Going into the off-season with no goalies signed is a huge risk. Your scouts and goalie coaches have to provide you with info to make those decisions. If Ramo becomes a true #1 in CGY, he is going to cost $4-6m. Still need a backup.

Anyway, I am not arguing for bringing in Bernier, just that we could do worse riding out Hiller. Dubie is an example of a goalie that rebounded after a bad season. Just saying.

We both agree something needs to be about goaltending, we just have different ideas about how to go about it.

I wonder if the Jets will be looking to move one of Pavelec or Hutchinson. Hellebuyck has looked very good up to this point and Pavelec will be returning from injury in the new year. Hutchinson is a RFA at the end of the year and Pavelec is signed for another year at $3.9m.

Hutchinson would be cheaper but the Jets might be less likely to give him up. Pavelec would be cheaper to acquire but he has been inconsistent through his career, but he did look like a number 1 last year.

[cross16]

Devin Dubynk has also regressed back to "average" level too, keep that in mind. He has not exactly been stellar this season. 

 

I really don't see the value in going after anyone unless its a clear cut number one. That could be a prospect or a young guy that you think can get there, but I personally think the Flames would be wasting their time and assets going after guys like Hutchinson, Pavelec, Bernier etc. Ramo is now giving them at the very least average goaltending and some nights above avg and I think he is capable of staying there. He isn't the answer long term I will agree with that, but he is a good enough option that the Flames don't need to get into the trying whatever and see what sticks philosphy that may have made more sense a month or two ago. 

 

Think big or don't bother and ride Ramo out. No point looking at stop gaps. Going to be tough and not likely going to be done until the offseson so I think they ride Ramo/Hiller. 

[JTech780]

Devin Dubynk has also regressed back to "average" level too, keep that in mind. He has not exactly been stellar this season.

I really don't see the value in going after anyone unless its a clear cut number one. That could be a prospect or a young guy that you think can get there, but I personally think the Flames would be wasting their time and assets going after guys like Hutchinson, Pavelec, Bernier etc. Ramo is now giving them at the very least average goaltending and some nights above avg and I think he is capable of staying there. He isn't the answer long term I will agree with that, but he is a good enough option that the Flames don't need to get into the trying whatever and see what sticks philosphy that may have made more sense a month or two ago.

Think big or don't bother and ride Ramo out. No point looking at stop gaps. Going to be tough and not likely going to be done until the offseson so I think they ride Ramo/Hiller.

With Pavelec and Hutchinson I was more thinking that they help our depth for next year and help us this year, they are less about finding a number 1. I wouldn't be opposed to bringing back Ramo next year if it was to be the backup and he was getting paid $2m or less.

[Carty]

II have been critical of his performance earlier, but I have to give Ramo credit for starting to show noticeable improvement...   Hopefully that trend continues...   Is he the answer?, it's possible, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it...   He is currently the best option available in the system so he is getting the starts...

 

The Flames need to keep looking for a true number one, but there are no easy answers...   Any goalie that I can think of that might be available just isn't on my want list...

 

With the way Hiller has been playing, he does not inspire confidence even as an overpriced backup...   The 2 recent games the Flames won despite Hillers play, not because of it...   The team simply overcame the deficit created by poor goal tending by putting a couple more in the net...   It wasn't just the flu, Hiller has been shaky all season...

 

Even if Ramo continues on an upward trend, the Flames still need to pursue a number one goalie in my opinion...   It's possible that Ramo could really step up...   He has the motive to do so after making it through waivers if he wants to further his career in net, so we shall see...   Even if he does, continuing to pursue  a legit starter is the safer bet, and unfortunately that will take time...

[The_People1]

Well, at least Ramo is making the first save now.  Rebound control is still questionable and so he has to flop around in recovery as a result.  Kinda scary sometimes but that's where the D comes in to clean up the garbage.  I think all we can ask is please don't let in 1 softie per game.