Goaltending

[cross16]

Great post, fantastic.  It can be very difficult to compare across the league.

 

What shouldn't be difficult though, is comparing within the organization.  And it amazes me how we struggle with it.

 

So Ramo has a good game on friday (very rare these days), and immediately, people want Ortio sent down.

 

Then, Ramo has another bad/average game, which is more typical of his play.

 

 

Ortio, on the other hand, in my opinion has only had one or two bad games this year, compared with about 10 very good games last year.  Basically, he's done well whenever he hasn't been dropped in cold.

 

We can watch Ramo or Hiller flounder game after game after game.  Patiently.  And they have one good game, and ...everything's better.

 

Ortio can have good game after good game after good game.   Then he's not played for months, dropped in cold, and has one or two bad games.    And....he's banished.

 

Ah well.

 

Ortio played only 6 NHL games last year. He was really good in 3, average in 1 and not very good in the other 2.

 

Ortio might and I really stress might, be better than Ramo/Hiller but he is not the savoir nor is he the answer IMO. Yes I think he should play few more games but I just think people need to stop acting like the Flames are sitting on a gold mine that they are holding back on purpose.

[Peter17]

Meanwhile, over in Colorado, Reto Berra is playing lights out with a 1.50 GAA and .953 save percentage.  I was a little concerned when we traded him away even though he was outplayed by Ramo that year but everyone seemed to think a 2nd rounder was great compensation for him.  Anybody still think that?  Would our goalending woes be gone if we had kept Berra?

 

Or maybe he would have never developed in Calgary and our goaltending coaching is the problem.  From what I've been reading all our goalies seem to have the same weakneses (caught out of position, taking bad angles, going down early and getting beat upstairs).  Our goalies have proven to be better in years past (especially Hiller) but this year they've all regressed in the early going.  Should Jordan Sigalet take some blame for that? 

 

Meanwhile, in Colorado, they have Patrick Roy and Francois Allaire coaching and Reto Berra is playing great (and Varlamov has been great in the past but struggling this year).

[cross16]

Meanwhile, over in Colorado, Reto Berra is playing lights out with a 1.50 GAA and .953 save percentage.  I was a little concerned when we traded him away even though he was outplayed by Ramo that year but everyone seemed to think a 2nd rounder was great compensation for him.  Anybody still think that?  Would our goalending woes be gone if we had kept Berra?

 

Or maybe he would have never developed in Calgary and our goaltending coaching is the problem.  From what I've been reading all our goalies seem to have the same weakneses (caught out of position, taking bad angles, going down early and getting beat upstairs).  Our goalies have proven to be better in years past (especially Hiller) but this year they've all regressed in the early going.  Should Jordan Sigalet take some blame for that? 

 

Meanwhile, in Colorado, they have Patrick Roy and Francois Allaire coaching and Reto Berra is playing great (and Varlamov has been great in the past but struggling this year).

 

 

I still think it was great compensation and I don't think he was the answer here at all. You can point to Sigalet if you want, I wont' comment as I know where little about it, but keep in mind that Francois Allaire is also considered one of if not the best goalie coaches out there. I don't think its fair to put down Sigalet when Colorado has a hall of fame netminder and one of the better goalie gurus of this generation working with their team.

 

keep in mind, Reto Berra was sent to the AHL for a good chunk of last year becuase he was that bad at the NHL level and so far this season he is playing lights out for 8 games. Thats an extremely small sample size to say anything but he is playing well right now but not that he would have been the answer here.

[cccsberg]

Meanwhile, over in Colorado, Reto Berra is playing lights out with a 1.50 GAA and .953 save percentage.  I was a little concerned when we traded him away even though he was outplayed by Ramo that year but everyone seemed to think a 2nd rounder was great compensation for him.  Anybody still think that?  Would our goalending woes be gone if we had kept Berra?

 

Or maybe he would have never developed in Calgary and our goaltending coaching is the problem.  From what I've been reading all our goalies seem to have the same weakneses (caught out of position, taking bad angles, going down early and getting beat upstairs).  Our goalies have proven to be better in years past (especially Hiller) but this year they've all regressed in the early going.  Should Jordan Sigalet take some blame for that? 

 

Meanwhile, in Colorado, they have Patrick Roy and Francois Allaire coaching and Reto Berra is playing great (and Varlamov has been great in the past but struggling this year).

Yes, agree.  Berra is #1 Save % in the NHL at the current moment.

[Peter17]

I still think it was great compensation and I don't think he was the answer here at all. You can point to Sigalet if you want, I wont' comment as I know where little about it, but keep in mind that Francois Allaire is also considered one of if not the best goalie coaches out there. I don't think its fair to put down Sigalet when Colorado has a hall of fame netminder and one of the better goalie gurus of this generation working with their team.

 

keep in mind, Reto Berra was sent to the AHL for a good chunk of last year becuase he was that bad at the NHL level and so far this season he is playing lights out for 8 games. Thats an extremely small sample size to say anything but he is playing well right now but not that he would have been the answer here.I

I don't want to blame Sigalet either as I also know nothing of whats really goiing on besides the results we can see on the ice.  It's somethng to worry about though as we have blue-chip goalie prospects on the way in Jon Gillies and Mason McDonald and we want to make sure that we can develop them the right way.

[The_People1]

I don't want to blame Sigalet either as I also know nothing of whats really goiing on besides the results we can see on the ice.  It's somethng to worry about though as we have blue-chip goalie prospects on the way in Jon Gillies and Mason McDonald and we want to make sure that we can develop them the right way.

 

Well, we saw what Sean Burke was able to do for Devan Dubnyk with the Coyotes.  A good goalie coach can change a young goalie's career.  I do agree, we have some very promising young goalies in the pipeline and we need to make absolutely sure they become what we hope they can be.  Both Hiller and Ramo was "good" last season.  I'm not sure why the regression but from the surface, it appears they are not getting the D support they got last season.

[Peter17]

I think Calgary has had only 2 great goalies, Mike Vernon and Miika Kiprusoff and only 1 of those (Vernon) we drafted and developed on our own.  It would be nice for Calgary to draft and develop their own great goalie again instead of developing busts (Jason Muzzatti, Evan Lindsay, Leland Irving, Trevor Kidd, Brent Krahn) or trading away/letting go our goalie prospects (Reto Berra, Laurent Broissoit) some of whom become great on other teams (Craig Anderson, Jean-Sebastien Giguere).  I think one of the reasons we were so crappy in the 90's was first round draft picks wasted on goalies (Trevor Kidd, Jason Muzzatti) who never developed and then the same thing happened in the 2000's (Brent Krahn, Leland Irving).  While we invested less in Gillies and McDonald let's hope that we can actually develop a great goalie again...and let's hope that we have a great goaltending coach to help with that.

[cross16]

Well, we saw what Sean Burke was able to do for Devan Dubnyk with the Coyotes.  A good goalie coach can change a young goalie's career.  I do agree, we have some very promising young goalies in the pipeline and we need to make absolutely sure they become what we hope they can be.  Both Hiller and Ramo was "good" last season.  I'm not sure why the regression but from the surface, it appears they are not getting the D support they got last season.

 

 

Have they really regressed though?

 

Outside of the first week or the season i'm not so sure they have. For the last week to 10 days I personally think Ramo has played as well as he did the majority of last season. The results are different becuase they arn't getting the same support either in their own zone, or on the scoreboard like that did last season and the Flames arn't able to duplicate their comebacks like last season.

[jjgallow]

I don't want to blame Sigalet either as I also know nothing of whats really goiing on besides the results we can see on the ice.  It's somethng to worry about though as we have blue-chip goalie prospects on the way in Jon Gillies and Mason McDonald and we want to make sure that we can develop them the right way.

 

I think you bring up some interesting points, but would question the choice of McDonald over Ortio as a bluechip prospect.

 

Mason, in his last year of junior, so far is unable to break the .900 save percentage barrier.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=194200

 

Granted, that still puts him at 9th overall in the QMJHL.   So far from dismal.   But...blue-chip?  not so sure.

 

Gillies...no arguement.

 

Ortio...was doing far greater things at that age, to be perfectly honest.  But more importantly, has shown success at the NHL level at a very young age.   IMHO, Ortio is ahead of Mason in that category, even adjusted for age.  If he's not bluechip, then the only bluechip we currently have is Gillies.

[Zirakzigil]

Have they really regressed though?

 

Outside of the first week or the season i'm not so sure they have. For the last week to 10 days I personally think Ramo has played as well as he did the majority of last season. The results are different becuase they arn't getting the same support either in their own zone, or on the scoreboard like that did last season and the Flames arn't able to duplicate their comebacks like last season.

This. The Flames are giving up way too many goals due to odd man rushes, poor line changes, not getting the puck out, poor defensive coverage, etc. Goaltending is not the problem. For sure its not where it could be, but its not like the Flames are losing 6-5. Half the time the Flames are having problems scoring more than 1 goal. 

[travel_dude]

I think you bring up some interesting points, but would question the choice of McDonald over Ortio as a bluechip prospect.

 

Mason, in his last year of junior, so far is unable to break the .900 save percentage barrier.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=194200

 

Granted, that still puts him at 9th overall in the QMJHL.   So far from dismal.   But...blue-chip?  not so sure.

 

Gillies...no arguement.

 

Ortio...was doing far greater things at that age, to be perfectly honest.  But more importantly, has shown success at the NHL level at a very young age.   IMHO, Ortio is ahead of Mason in that category, even adjusted for age.  If he's not bluechip, then the only bluechip we currently have is Gillies.

 

I'm not sure what Ortio you are talking about, but his numbers at the same age weren't exactly Kipper-esque.

 

Joni Ortio

Goalie

Born Apr 16 1991 -- Turku, Finland

Height 6.01 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots R

Selected by Calgary Flames round 6 #171 overall 2009 NHL Entry Draft

Season Team Lge GP Min GA EN SO GAA W L T Svs Pct

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2009-10 TPS Turku SM-liiga 3 108 8 0 0 4.45 1 0 0 41 0.837

2010-11 Abbotsford Heat AHL 1 60 6 0 0 6.03 0 0 0 24 0.800

2011-12 Abbotsford Heat AHL 9 387 19 0 0 2.94 1 4 0 153 0.890

2011-12 TPS Turku SM-liiga 14 753 33 0 2 2.63 3 6 3 329 0.909

2012-13 HIFK Helsinki SM-liiga 54 3120 126 0 4 2.42 23 20 9 1383 0.917

2013-14 Abbotsford Heat AHL 37 2133 83 1 2 2.33 27 8 0 1036 0.926

2013-14 Alaska Aces ECHL 4 238 4 0 2 1.01 3 1 0 67 0.944

2013-14 Calgary Flames NHL 9 501 21 0 0 2.51 4 4 0 172 0.891

2014-15 Adirondack Flames AHL 37 2095 94 3 4 2.69 21 13 1 980 0.912

2014-15 Calgary Flames NHL 6 333 14 0 1 2.52 4 2 0 139 0.908

2015-16 Calgary Flames NHL 4 140 10 0 0 4.28 0 2 0 66 0.868

 

When he was 20, he played on Abby for 9 games.  At 21 he was back in Finland. At 22 he played again in Abby.  Good number from that point, but he was 20 before you started seeing results.  McDonald is just 19.  

[jjgallow]

I'm not sure what Ortio you are talking about, but his numbers at the same age weren't exactly Kipper-esque.

 

Joni Ortio

Goalie

Born Apr 16 1991 -- Turku, Finland

Height 6.01 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots R

Selected by Calgary Flames round 6 #171 overall 2009 NHL Entry Draft

Season Team Lge GP Min GA EN SO GAA W L T Svs Pct

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2009-10 TPS Turku SM-liiga 3 108 8 0 0 4.45 1 0 0 41 0.837

2010-11 Abbotsford Heat AHL 1 60 6 0 0 6.03 0 0 0 24 0.800

2011-12 Abbotsford Heat AHL 9 387 19 0 0 2.94 1 4 0 153 0.890

2011-12 TPS Turku SM-liiga 14 753 33 0 2 2.63 3 6 3 329 0.909

2012-13 HIFK Helsinki SM-liiga 54 3120 126 0 4 2.42 23 20 9 1383 0.917

2013-14 Abbotsford Heat AHL 37 2133 83 1 2 2.33 27 8 0 1036 0.926

2013-14 Alaska Aces ECHL 4 238 4 0 2 1.01 3 1 0 67 0.944

2013-14 Calgary Flames NHL 9 501 21 0 0 2.51 4 4 0 172 0.891

2014-15 Adirondack Flames AHL 37 2095 94 3 4 2.69 21 13 1 980 0.912

2014-15 Calgary Flames NHL 6 333 14 0 1 2.52 4 2 0 139 0.908

2015-16 Calgary Flames NHL 4 140 10 0 0 4.28 0 2 0 66 0.868

 

When he was 20, he played on Abby for 9 games.  At 21 he was back in Finland. At 22 he played again in Abby.  Good number from that point, but he was 20 before you started seeing results.  McDonald is just 19.  

 

Wouldn't it be simpler just to compare them at similar ages, rather than going back and forth between one player and the next at different ages?

 

So when Ortio was 19, he had a 9.11 in a professional league with ex-NHLers that is seen as relatively on-par with the AHL, or maybe Very slightly below that level (but significantly higher skill than junior).

 

The only comparable experience had in junior, at that time, was the world junior cup.  Ortio ranked 2nd overall in the tournament with .931.

 

 

MacDonald, at 19, has yet to succeed at breaking the .900 barrier.  Not in the world junior cup, but the qmjhl.   He ranks 9th overall, just in that league.  Not against all goalies, ranked internationally (where Ortio ranked 2nd).   Just within the QMJHL, where MacDonald is an over-ager, he ranks 9th.  That's against goalies who are mostly the same age or younger than him.

 

 

Anyway, not looking for a huge arguement here an I never claimed any of the things that have been accused above, such as Ortio being a "savior".  But the record stands for itself that we did at one time have an elite prospect and what we have now, we don't really know because we hardly play him.  Is he still elite?  Probably not.  Not playing hockey never helped my game, personally.

[travel_dude]

Wouldn't it be simpler just to compare them at similar ages, rather than going back and forth between one player and the next at different ages?

 

So when Ortio was 19, he had a 9.11 in a professional league with ex-NHLers that is seen as relatively on-par with the AHL, or maybe Very slightly below that level (but significantly higher skill than junior).

 

The only comparable experience had in junior, at that time, was the world junior cup.  Ortio ranked 2nd overall in the tournament with .931.

 

 

MacDonald, at 19, has yet to succeed at breaking the .900 barrier.  Not in the world junior cup, but the qmjhl.   He ranks 9th overall, just in that league.  Not against all goalies, ranked internationally (where Ortio ranked 2nd).   Just within the QMJHL, where MacDonald is an over-ager, he ranks 9th.  That's against goalies who are mostly the same age or younger than him.

 

 

Anyway, not looking for a huge arguement here an I never claimed any of the things that have been accused above, such as Ortio being a "savior".  But the record stands for itself that we did at one time have an elite prospect and what we have now, we don't really know because we hardly play him.  Is he still elite?  Probably not.  Not playing hockey never helped my game, personally.

Hard to compare leagues, but McDonald has been over .900 in the last 2 seasons, which is an accomplishment in that league where defense is secondary.  He is sitting at .899 this season, which is close.

 

Ortio had 3 games in his 19 year old season.  Wasn't until his 21 year old season that he actually played a real season.  Only reason I bring this up is you said Ortio was doing far greater thans than McDonald at that age.  Is one tourney the only thing that proves this?  I must be missing some things.

[jjgallow]

Hard to compare leagues, but McDonald has been over .900 in the last 2 seasons, which is an accomplishment in that league where defense is secondary.  He is sitting at .899 this season, which is close.

 

Ortio had 3 games in his 19 year old season.  Wasn't until his 21 year old season that he actually played a real season.  Only reason I bring this up is you said Ortio was doing far greater thans than McDonald at that age.  Is one tourney the only thing that proves this?  I must be missing some things.

 

I actually think one or both of us might be missing things, and that could be the root of the opinion difference.

 

Ortio was 19 in his 2010-2011 season.  He played a total of 46 games (if I'm counting right).  I could be off.   It is a bit hard to compare by same-league, since they never really played in the same league.  But when Ortio is playing in a significantly better league, and ranking better, and also having a better save percentage, those three factors combined make it a fairly straightforward assessment, at least in my mind.     

 

That's not to say I'm happy with the Ortio situation right now.  Nor am I claiming him as any kind of saviour.  But I do think they could give the guy more of a chance.  Given his lack of playing time it is extremely hard to evaluate where he is at right now.  I'll concede to that.

[JTech780]

Wouldn't it be simpler just to compare them at similar ages, rather than going back and forth between one player and the next at different ages?

So when Ortio was 19, he had a 9.11 in a professional league with ex-NHLers that is seen as relatively on-par with the AHL, or maybe Very slightly below that level (but significantly higher skill than junior).

The only comparable experience had in junior, at that time, was the world junior cup. Ortio ranked 2nd overall in the tournament with .931.

MacDonald, at 19, has yet to succeed at breaking the .900 barrier. Not in the world junior cup, but the qmjhl. He ranks 9th overall, just in that league. Not against all goalies, ranked internationally (where Ortio ranked 2nd). Just within the QMJHL, where MacDonald is an over-ager, he ranks 9th. That's against goalies who are mostly the same age or younger than him.

Anyway, not looking for a huge arguement here an I never claimed any of the things that have been accused above, such as Ortio being a "savior". But the record stands for itself that we did at one time have an elite prospect and what we have now, we don't really know because we hardly play him. Is he still elite? Probably not. Not playing hockey never helped my game, personally.

McDonald had has had save percentages above .900 the last two seasons, while facing 30+ shots a night on a very poor Charlottetown team.

Ortio might have been playing against pros but he also had pros playing in front of him. Also the Finnish Liiga is well known to be a low scoring very defensive league. Ortio's numbers in the AHL have been average and below average at the NHL level.

Just to point out as well that McDonald isn't an overeager this year and that most of the goalies ahead of him are older than he is. He is also facing 33 shots a game.

One final note McDonald is the favorite to be the started for Canada's WJC team this year.

[travel_dude]

I actually think one or both of us might be missing things, and that could be the root of the opinion difference.

 

Ortio was 19 in his 2010-2011 season.  He played a total of 46 games (if I'm counting right).  I could be off.   It is a bit hard to compare by same-league, since they never really played in the same league.  But when Ortio is playing in a significantly better league, and ranking better, and also having a better save percentage, those three factors combined make it a fairly straightforward assessment, at least in my mind.     

 

That's not to say I'm happy with the Ortio situation right now.  Nor am I claiming him as any kind of saviour.  But I do think they could give the guy more of a chance.  Given his lack of playing time it is extremely hard to evaluate where he is at right now.  I'll concede to that.

 

I was looking at Hockeydb, but I also checked NHL.com  (see link),

 

He played 15 games for TPS Turku with 2-7-3 with 38 GA.  He must have got the hook for some or come in for relief.

The same year (2010/11) he played 1 games for the Heat, with 6 GA.

 

Here's the link.  Count the WJC if you like but have to say one name... Pogge.

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8475299 

[jjgallow]

I was looking at Hockeydb, but I also checked NHL.com  (see link),

 

He played 15 games for TPS Turku with 2-7-3 with 38 GA.  He must have got the hook for some or come in for relief.

The same year (2010/11) he played 1 games for the Heat, with 6 GA.

 

Here's the link.  Count the WJC if you like but have to say one name... Pogge.

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8475299 

 

oh ok, we're definitely looking at difference sources as well as different stats.

 

Eliteprospects tends to have a more complete picture on international play....he was in a lot more games than that (Mestis):

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=16050

 

TPS Turku was an absolutely horrible team that year, I was watching closely.   For that situation I think you need to use the save percentage.   They were truly dreadful.  

Ortio's numbers in the AHL have been average and below average at the NHL level.

 

 

Also true of Ramo and Hiller

[MAC331]

I thought I might see some comments from the reference made regarding Ramo and Hartley having a thrash it out meeting prior to this string of starts.

 

I'm only guessing it was Ramo expressing the opportunity to start a number of games and if you still don't have confidence in me, waive me. Good for him.

[CheersMan]

I thought I might see some comments from the reference made regarding Ramo and Hartley having a thrash it out meeting prior to this string of starts.

 

I'm only guessing it was Ramo expressing the opportunity to start a number of games and if you still don't have confidence in me, waive me. Good for him.

 

He has a 0.921 SA% in last 8 games with a winning record, he's getting the job done.

 

[robrob1974]

I thought I might see some comments from the reference made regarding Ramo and Hartley having a thrash it out meeting prior to this string of starts.

 

I'm only guessing it was Ramo expressing the opportunity to start a number of games and if you still don't have confidence in me, waive me. Good for him.

 

I have a feeling it was about him getting waived in the first place. It sounded like they meant, on his return they had to reconcile the relationship after things were said prior to being waived. 

[travel_dude]

Ortio is now on waivers.  End of his time on the Flames this year.  Hello mediocre goaltending.

[cross16]

That is the right call right now. he needs to play and I don't see a scenario where he will anytiime soon, plus I personally think he will clear. If flames continues to falter and fall out of this than I think he will be back up and playing but right now you need to run with a goalie you trust and that just isn't Ortio.

[travel_dude]

That is the right call right now. he needs to play and I don't see a scenario where he will anytiime soon, plus I personally think he will clear. If flames continues to falter and fall out of this than I think he will be back up and playing but right now you need to run with a goalie you trust and that just isn't Ortio.

 

I'm not sure I trust Hiller, given his last starts.  He is a month since playing.  You may not agree, but Hiller should have been assigned (agreed to of course) to the Heat for the 14 day stint.  If Hiller starts and gets lit up, what then?  If Ortio gets claimed, what then?

 

Neither of those is certain, but both are realistic possibilities.  No different than waiving a Paul Byron.  

[JTech780]

Ortio is now on waivers. End of his time on the Flames this year. Hello mediocre goaltending.

Let's be fair, regardless of who went down we were going to have mediocre goal tending.

I would have liked to have seen Ortio get into a few more games to see if he's better than what he shown to date, but that's not Hartley's job his job is to win games and he has to go with the goaltenders that he thinks gives him the best chance to win and in his mind that isn't Ortio. He had ample opportunity to play Ortio and didn't so why keep a goalie that you aren't going to play.

[travel_dude]

Let's be fair, regardless of who went down we were going to have mediocre goal tending.

I would have liked to have seen Ortio get into a few more games to see if he's better than what he shown to date, but that's not Hartley's job his job is to win games and he has to go with the goaltenders that he thinks gives him the best chance to win and in his mind that isn't Ortio. He had ample opportunity to play Ortio and didn't so why keep a goalie that you aren't going to play.

 

We have seen 2 games of Ortio (plus 2 flawless relief stints).  Hiller played 7, but his last was a stinker (the one he was injured).

Ramo played 14.  Hiller has been the worst of the three.