Goaltending

[travel_dude]

Apparently Ramo gets the next start. Terrible judgement by the coach. Clearly the coach isn't in the same page as the GM playing the guy that was just off waivers after giving up over 4 goals per game since he was back.

Hate to say it, but if they can't get on the same page fire the coach.

 

The GM has tools available to him to reel back in the coach.  Waive a player.  Assign a player.  Trade a player, even if it's just for peanuts.  BT has given Hartley too much latitude by keeping 3 goalies while 2 were struggling.  Sending down Nakladal instead of Smid.  Not assigning Raymond.  Not waiving Bollig.

 

It sounds like crap to waive multiple players, but we are in the worst slump in franchise history.  Tinkering with the lineup isn't going to fix it right now.  It may all work out, but that may not happen until December at this rate.  Hiller was playing like crap before he was injured and won't be better due to the injury.

 

If I was Brian Burke, I would be talking on a daily basis with BT.  And I am giving my opinion about some things or at least offering sober advice to BT's opinions.

[DirtyDeeds]

Apparently Ramo gets the next start. Terrible judgement by the coach. Clearly the coach isn't in the same page as the GM playing the guy that was just off waivers after giving up over 4 goals per game since he was back.

Hate to say it, but if they can't get on the same page fire the coach.

• How do you know that Ramo is not BT's choice and not BH's choice?
• What proof do you have that shows that BH is not on same page as BT?
• Exactly what choice does BH have other than Ramo at this time? Throw Ortio who has not been playing any better to wolves? JJ how do you feel about that scenario for the development of Ortio?

 

I am just as disappointed as you are with our goaltending, but this is not a lets blame BH decisions problem. This is a "goaltenders have all been average at best" and bad most nights problem combined with the rest of the team especially the D has not been very good..

[kehatch]

• How do you know that Ramo is not BT's choice and not BH's choice?
• What proof do you have that shows that BH is not on same page as BT?
• Exactly what choice does BH have other than Ramo at this time? Throw Ortio who has not been playing any better to wolves? JJ how do you feel about that scenario for the development of Ortio?

I am just as disappointed as you are with our goaltending, but this is not a lets blame BH decisions problem. This is a "goaltenders have all been average at best" and bad most nights problem combined with the rest of the team especially the D has not been very good..</p>

Treliving waived Ramo recently so Ortio could stay up. Ramo is only on the roster because Hiller got hurt.

Benching a prospect is a piss poor for weeks to start the season and then giving him very sporadic starts is a piss poor way to develop a player.

Clearly the coach (who makes the decision) doesn't like the guy as he going out of his way not to play him. Clearly the GM does like the player as he waived a senior player to let him stay.

The GM has tools available to him to reel back in the coach. Waive a player. Assign a player. Trade a player, even if it's just for peanuts. BT has given Hartley too much latitude by keeping 3 goalies while 2 were struggling. Sending down Nakladal instead of Smid. Not assigning Raymond. Not waiving Bollig.

It sounds like crap to waive multiple players, but we are in the worst slump in franchise history. Tinkering with the lineup isn't going to fix it right now. It may all work out, but that may not happen until December at this rate. Hiller was playing like crap before he was injured and won't be better due to the injury.

If I was Brian Burke, I would be talking on a daily basis with BT. And I am giving my opinion about some things or at least offering sober advice to BT's opinions.

The Flames don't have great alternatives. For example, who comes up if Ramo is waived? At the end of the day the coach gets decide who plays. If the GM needs to start trading and waiving players to force the coach to get on the same page that is a problem.

[robrob1974]

They waived Ramo, most likely, because they didn't want to lose Ortio on waivers. Almost everyone's consensus is that Ortio would be claimed.

[SiouX_17]

Apparently Ramo gets the next start. Terrible judgement by the coach. Clearly the coach isn't in the same page as the GM playing the guy that was just off waivers after giving up over 4 goals per game since he was back.

Hate to say it, but if they can't get on the same page fire the coach.

why exactly, please? because he let 5 goals, of which only ONE can really be blamed on him?

 

this is getting ridiculous, what other options does BH have? Ortio, who was literally disgraced in his latest start, and again, mostly by our terrible team defensive play ?

 

couple of games ago, everyone here seem to want BH give couple of games in a row to one goalie and see if he can ride with it and now, after Ramo`s win followed by a loss we want yet another change?? and what if Ortio loses the next game, will you want to start Ramo again and get the whole team in the exactly same situation which was here at the start of the season [win the game and you`ll start the next one?]

 

this is as absurd as you wanting BT to fire Hartley for the goaltending rotation..let`s not forget it was BT who put Hartley in such situation..

 

if for anything Hartley should be warned [not fired, OMG], it should be for him being unable to have his players get their heads out of their a$$holes finally and DEFEND properly in our zone !!

 

 

 

 

• How do you know that Ramo is not BT's choice and not BH's choice?
• What proof do you have that shows that BH is not on same page as BT?
• Exactly what choice does BH have other than Ramo at this time? Throw Ortio who has not been playing any better to wolves? JJ how do you feel about that scenario for the development of Ortio?

 

I am just as disappointed as you are with our goaltending, but this is not a lets blame BH decisions problem. This is a "goaltenders have all been average at best" and bad most nights problem combined with the rest of the team especially the D has not been very good..

 

 

I will repeat myself, but we cannot blame any of our goalies for the outcomes of most games [yes they all managed to allow terrible goals almos every game], but most of our allowed goals are because we are playing horrendous defensive game, without any aggression, without challenging the guy with the puck, without punishing them in our crease.. and, nobody seem to point this so far, but almost all of our forwards are playing exceptionally poor in our D zone [and I`m especially dissapointed by Monahan`s D game, he seems to lost it completely and this dates back to first round in playoff last season, after that he is like a entirely different player and not just in offensive play]..

 

you don`t need stellar goaltender performances, when your whole team is playing responsible in the D zone and with high level of awareness, but given how we performed so far, we could have had 2 goalies in net at the same time and would not win any more games..

 

I`m not trying to say our GK is okay, but I think we lost only one game due to bad/unlucky/poor goal and it was againt Jets, when Ramo actually played quite good for 58 minutes..

 

we are allowing WAAAAAY too many high quality changes and how the hell can we blame goalies for allowing goals off them? most of the time they are doing what they can, but just don`t have any chance..

 

let me use a methaphore from soccer game:  a penalty kick [from 11m] CAN NEVER be saved by goaltender, it CAN ONLY be kicked badly by the player.

[robrob1974]

I don't think it has anything to do with who the GM prefers.

Ortio might clear now that his play has been crap.

[kehatch]

The coach shouldn't be fired for the way the goalies are playing. But Hamilton is getting third pairing minutes. Ortio can't buy a start. Backlund (who was just extended) gets benched.

If the coach doesn't like the players the GM does there is a problem.

[The_People1]

The coach shouldn't be fired for the way the goalies are playing. But Hamilton is getting third pairing minutes. Ortio can't buy a start. Backlund (who was just extended) gets benched.

If the coach doesn't like the players the GM does there is a problem.

 

Bob Hartley wasn't given much to work with last season and managed to turn lead into gold.  I think he's okay.  The roster needs to be better and that's the GM's job to improve it. 

[robrob1974]

None of those players deserve more ice time. Sorry, you're arguing an empty battle. The only discrepancy is Russell getting so much time. Everyone you're talking about has underperformed.

Ok, give Hamilton the minutes instead. The other team scores just as much. Backlund has been elbowing. Ortio hasn't done much either.

I think the team brought too many players to camp and didn't get the chance to gel sooner. It took them 5 games or more just to resemble a team.

[MAC331]

 

• How do you know that Ramo is not BT's choice and not BH's choice?
• What proof do you have that shows that BH is not on same page as BT?
• Exactly what choice does BH have other than Ramo at this time? Throw Ortio who has not been playing any better to wolves? JJ how do you feel about that scenario for the development of Ortio?

 

I am just as disappointed as you are with our goaltending, but this is not a lets blame BH decisions problem. This is a "goaltenders have all been average at best" and bad most nights problem combined with the rest of the team especially the D has not been very good..

 

I think it is a good thing to see him back to back to see if there is some fight there. Can he bounce back after a loss, this yanking these goalies with every loss is defeatist in itself.

[kehatch]

None of those players deserve more ice time. Sorry, you're arguing an empty battle. The only discrepancy is Russell getting so much time. Everyone you're talking about has underperformed.

Ok, give Hamilton the minutes instead. The other team scores just as much. Backlund has been elbowing. Ortio hasn't done much either.

I think the team brought too many players to camp and didn't get the chance to gel sooner. It took them 5 games or more just to resemble a team.

Very few players are performing. But the point wasn't that Hartley is wrong. It's that the GM just waived one of the goalies so the other could stick. Yet the coach is playing the guy that was waived after he let in 5 goals on a loss. Before that the third guy was kept on the roster by the GM and never played by the coach. Does that sound like guys on the same page?

[robrob1974]

It sounds to me that the team didn't want to lose Ortio to waivers.

[hayen]

I agree that we need more from D to protect the goalie and that firing the coaching is not the answer but great teams have a tone set by great or at least consistent goaltending and we have not had that. Someone needs to step up to make the saves that energize the team and be that guy if this season is going to turn around

[kehatch]

It sounds to me that the team didn't want to lose Ortio to waivers.

But he is okay with hi riding the bench 80 percent of the time?

[travel_dude]

Bob Hartley wasn't given much to work with last season and managed to turn lead into gold.  I think he's okay.  The roster needs to be better and that's the GM's job to improve it. 

 

The roster decisions have been a based of cooperative decisions.  Hartley takes the camp guys and decides who stays and who doesn't.  That's how it was last year.  Sending down Baertschi was BH's decision, backed up by BT.  Once the season got rolling, there seemed to be a disconnect.  Players were brought in, but left on the bench.  Those were BH all the way.

 

Last year the results were there, sometimes through great coaching, sometimes in spite of the coaching.  I think BH is a great teaching coach, but sometimes his in-game choices or lineup decisions are baffling.  This year, most of those decisions have not worked.  The players have won the games just barely.

[DirtyDeeds]

Treliving waived Ramo recently so Ortio could stay up. Ramo is only on the roster because Hiller got hurt.

Benching a prospect is a piss poor for weeks to start the season and then giving him very sporadic starts is a piss poor way to develop a player.

Clearly the coach (who makes the decision) doesn't like the guy as he going out of his way not to play him. Clearly the GM does like the player as he waived a senior player to let him stay.

The Flames don't have great alternatives. For example, who comes up if Ramo is waived? At the end of the day the coach gets decide who plays. If the GM needs to start trading and waiving players to force the coach to get on the same page that is a problem.

The waiving of Ramo had very little to do with who BH or BT likes better.

 

It was simply who was the most likely to make it through waivers. It was nothing to do with a popularity contest between our coach and/or GM.

 

When none of the Goalies are playing well(Hiller included) does it matter if one sits or not? In the case of Ortio, because he would be classed as emerging prospect, he needs sheltered starts.. He does not need to be throw to the wolves by BH or BT.

 

The Flames don't have any good alternatives and this is the only part of your thinking I agree with. This also has nothing to do with BH and the coaches because all 3 goaltenders have been given the opportunity including Ortio with sheltered starts.

 

"Clearly" none of them have taken advantage of the opportunities presented to them.

[kehatch]

The waiving of Ramo had very little to do with who BH or BT likes better.

It was simply who was the most likely to make it through waivers. It was nothing to do with a popularity contest between our coach and/or GM.

When none of the Goalies are playing well(Hiller included) does it matter if one sits or not? In the case of Ortio, because he would be classed as emerging prospect, he needs sheltered starts.. He does not need to be throw to the wolves by BH or BT.

The Flames don't have any good alternatives and this is the only part of your thinking I agree with. This also has nothing to do with BH and the coaches because all 3 goaltenders have been given the opportunity including Ortio with sheltered starts.

"Clearly" none of them have taken advantage of the opportunities presented to them.

There has been a clear discrepancy in utilization of goalies. It hasn't been consistent with player movement. Justify it however very you want, but Ramo (the guy that was demoted) is the first guy that has got consecutive starts outside of a win and Ortio has been scratched more then any other goalie.

[jjgallow]

 all 3 goaltenders have been given the opportunity including Ortio with sheltered starts.

 

 

You mean...Montreal and the Islanders? 

 

???

[Zirakzigil]

Goaltending has not been the issue, they need to be better but they arent losing games. The Flames play in their own zone has been horrid, thats what is causing losses. This team is not out working the opposition and completely collapses when they hit opposition. 

[hayen]

I think we can point to various issues for losses but I have to strongly disagree that goaltending is not one of them. Not a single tender close to .900 and many are open looks that should be saves.

[DirtyDeeds]

You mean...Montreal and the Islanders? 

 

???

yes.. The Habs were on a two game losing streak, played their backup, and had just played the Oilers the night before. Definitely what I would call a sheltered start. 

 

The Islanders were the second game of a back to back on a road trip. Not so much a sheltered start but we did not have much choice.

 

[kehatch]

Goaltending has not been the issue, they need to be better but they arent losing games. The Flames play in their own zone has been horrid, thats what is causing losses. This team is not out working the opposition and completely collapses when they hit opposition.

Early in it wasn't THE issue. It was one of many issues. But I would argue over the last few games it has been the biggest issue. The Flames are scoring but the goalies are letting in 4 or 5 every game, some of them weak, and rarely coming up with a clutch save.

[jjgallow]

You mean...Montreal and the Islanders? 

 

???

 

 

yes.. The Habs were on a two game losing streak, played their backup, and had just played the Oilers the night before. Definitely what I would call a sheltered start. 

 

The Islanders were the second game of a back to back on a road trip. Not so much a sheltered start but we did not have much choice.

 

 

 

I appreciate the explanation, but....it's still Montreal.  I actually couldn't think of a least-sheltered game against any team in the league.    And then there's the Islanders.

[DirtyDeeds]

 

 

 

I appreciate the explanation, but....it's still Montreal.  I actually couldn't think of a least-sheltered game against any team in the league.    And then there's the Islanders.

 

Sheltered also means the games he isn't playing now. This is not limited to the 2 games he has played.

[cross16]

I Agree that over the last week goaltending is the biggest issue plauging this team. Yes they need to be better in their own zone but its also unrealistic to expect a team to play mistake free hockey and right now with the calibre of goaltending they are getting they would basiclaly need mistake free hockey becuase right now every mistake they make winds up in their own net. Even the best teams typically need a save or two like that every night and sof ar the Flames have gotten about zero of those types of saves. I would argue goaltending has cost them 2 or 3 losses over the last week to 10 days.

 

While I personally feel its very valid to question Hartley I think what is happening is the Flames are stuck. I don't think anyone feels totally comfortable with Ortio but they are afraid to lose him for nothing so they are stuck keeping him on the active roster. From everything i've heard Hartley is a bigger supporter of Ramo then Hiller so I guess you could read into the decision to send Ramo down more of a GM call then a coach but I have a hard time believing that. I think it came down to everyone admitting the 3 goalie thing was a disaster and we need to send someone down. I think if Hartley had his vote he would send down Ortio and roll Hiller/Ortio but he probably reconizes they may lose a decent asset for nothing so everyone was stuck. Was pretty much a lose-lose-lose situation no matter how you look at it.

 

Its pretty clear Hartley doenst have alot of faith in Ortio and honestly I can't blame him. He's shown little at the NHL level, hasn't exaclty stood out in games this season (not bad, but never great) and he is unproven. As a coach who needs to win games, not develop a young goalies, its not hard to see why he is leaning on Ramo/HIller. I don't mind going back to Ramo becuase I think they need to give a goalie a few games here and stop the in one game out the next rotation and Ramo did not cost the Flames the game in Colorado. I thought he was Ok.