Goaltending

[jjgallow]

If we did start Ortio,and say he played well,does that mean we would have to waive Hilller or Ramo, or trade one of them? I don't know how this works and am just wondering. I know they are both free agents at the year end so if Ortio played well we could trade one of them for an asset

 

I would take a chance starting Ortio just to see what he can do, this could turn out to be good for us.

 

Having three goaltenders isn't and shouldn't be normal or feasible.   The fact that it's gone on this long is because, somehow, with three goalies, we still haven't been able to get the goaltending that other teams are getting with two.

 

If Ortio played well, it would present a problem.  A GOOD problem.  A problem that I believe we want to have.  And should have.

 

What frustrates me is that the thought of playing Ortio for one game is seen as taking a chance.  We've already taken a chance on Ortio, we signed him to an NHL contract, he's played extremely well the last three seasons, and he showed us that we can get NHL calibre out of him in multiple games last year.  Now it's time to utilize him and develop him further.

 

I believe Ortio will get the nod, and I believe we will see strong goaltending out of him today.  But, he has also gone way too long without playing.   Whether he shuts them out or gets lit up, shouldn't make a huge difference at this point.  He should be given an absolute minimum of 15 NHL games this year before we can even begin to properly evaluate him.  

 

Playing Ramo and Hiller, to-date has accomplished nothing, other than significantly lowering their trade value.  It has not helped the success of the team, it has not made a trade more feasible, it has not developed Ortio.   The only silver lining I see now, is that it may have Finally created the opportunity for Ortio that he should have been given a year ago, imho.  Right now, the bar is set low enough that the organization may Finally be open to developing its first legitimate goaltending prospect properly since Trevor Kidd.

[tmac70]

Having three goaltenders isn't and shouldn't be normal or feasible.   The fact that it's gone on this long is because, somehow, with three goalies, we still haven't been able to get the goaltending that other teams are getting with two.

 

If Ortio played well, it would present a problem.  A GOOD problem.  A problem that I believe we want to have.  And should have.

 

What frustrates me is that the thought of playing Ortio for one game is seen as taking a chance.  We've already taken a chance on Ortio, we signed him to an NHL contract, he's played extremely well the last three seasons, and he showed us that we can get NHL calibre out of him in multiple games last year.  Now it's time to utilize him and develop him further.

 

I believe Ortio will get the nod, and I believe we will see strong goaltending out of him today.  But, he has also gone way too long without playing.   Whether he shuts them out or gets lit up, shouldn't make a huge difference at this point.  He should be given an absolute minimum of 15 NHL games this year before we can even begin to properly evaluate him.  

 

Playing Ramo and Hiller, to-date has accomplished nothing, other than significantly lowering their trade value.  It has not helped the success of the team, it has not made a trade more feasible, it has not developed Ortio.   The only silver lining I see now, is that it may have Finally created the opportunity for Ortio that he should have been given a year ago, imho.  Right now, the bar is set low enough that the organization may Finally be open to developing its first legitimate goaltending prospect properly since Trevor Kidd.

I am not a fan of Ortio as a starter backup maybe but starter no hope in hell. He is worse positional than the 2 we have and allows way to many goals high side ( both) due to his size.  The kid played well for 5 games last season till the book got out on him, than he got lite up like a xmas tree. Does any one really think Hartley keeps this guy on the bench cause he gives us the best chance to win.

 

Soft goals are killing us but the lack of offensive production, PP, lack of intensity, turnovers are a larger problem right now.

[kehatch]

_{How can anyone blame Ramo. He played great. It was the slugs in front of him that didn't show up. You can't play the better part of 2 periods inside your own zone and expect to win. Wideman should have bought a ticket to the game as all he did was watch byfulin (sp?). How many poor choice passes were attempted only to end up on the stick of the jets. A very poor performance}

Losing the game wasn't Ramos fault. But regardless of how he played, you can't have goalies letting in goals that soft in a tie game with a couple of minutes to go.

Ramo is incredibly inconsistent. In his first game hr makes the save of the year and follows it up with a weak goal a minute later.

The point isn't to blame Ramo though. It's to point out that we don't have Price in net. Our goaltending was mediocre last season and weak this season. No reason to keep the kid in the press box.

[jjgallow]

I am not a fan of Ortio as a starter backup maybe but starter no hope in hell. He is worse positional than the 2 we have and allows way to many goals high side ( both) due to his size.  The kid played well for 5 games last season till the book got out on him, than he got lite up like a xmas tree. Does any one really think Hartley keeps this guy on the bench cause he gives us the best chance to win.

 

Here's the thing.....sample size.  You're referring to ONE game last year.  One.  30 minutes, actually.  And the only goalie who let any high-side shots in that game, was Hiller.

http://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/recap?id=2014020695

 

He's coming off two great AHL years.  He was called up last year, and got four straight wins in a row with us, including a shutout, and posting far superior numbers to Ramo or Hiller to that point.

 

Great.  Here's what's troubling:

 

He had ONE bad game (yes, it was bad).  Let in four goals.   Got pulled.  Whatever.

 

And he's Banished for Four months.  Banished.         (to be fair, was also injured).

 

We've seen both Ramo and Hiller play worse than that many, many times.  Including this year.  Are they banished?  Pulled even?  No.  We give them every opportunity to bounce back.  Every time.  And the fans have always been behind it too.  Nobody tolerates bad-mouthing them.   Ortio?   One mistake and he's gone for four months.    Because...he's young.  Let's face it, it's a double standard.

 

At the End of the season, the Flames put Ortio in net after not having played any hockey at any level for two months.  He was literally injured since February, and they put him in on April 11th, without any conditioning stint.   He struggled. Of course.   Means absolutely nothing, and nothing should be assumed from that game.

 

In the pre-season, Ortio was exceptional.  Whatever "book" the NHL had on him, it obviously got lost over summer.  He was our 2nd best goalie behind Hiller, who was also exceptional.  Yes, there was one specific play in one specific game where he fell apart with bad positioning.  And it was highlight-real bad.  But no goal was scored, and he won the game.   

 

Ultimately it really saddens me that, specifically with younger goalies, we have a culture here which immediately disqualifies them on one bad play.   When we should be looking at their Highest level of play to determine their potential as they gain experience and consistency.    With Ortio, that's NHL shutouts.  Two now.  Both in high-shot games.

 

We have no problems ignoring the bad play of our veteran goaltenders.  I can only assume that this is considered good sportsmanship?  Good fanship?  And that putting faith in younger prospects is maybe...disloyal?  Cheating on the veteran keeper?  Whatever the case, it's coming to an end soon.  The writing is on the wall, and I can't wait.

[travel_dude]

Losing the game wasn't Ramos fault. But regardless of how he played, you can't have goalies letting in goals that soft in a tie game with a couple of minutes to go.

Ramo is incredibly inconsistent. In his first game hr makes the save of the year and follows it up with a weak goal a minute later.

The point isn't to blame Ramo though. It's to point out that we don't have Price in net. Our goaltending was mediocre last season and weak this season. No reason to keep the kid in the press box.

 

Unless Ramo becomes more consistent for 60 minutes, he becomes a liability.  58 minutes he was comfortable and well positioned. He scrambled a bit, but some bad coverage was mostly to blame for that.  He is improving, while Hiller seems to be the same.  Typical starting goalie; doesn't wow you and doesn't steal many games.  Meh.

 

The problem I have right now is that when we have a solid looking prospect looking like he is ready to take the net, we don't run with it.  How many times have goalies come out of nowhere to steal the job.  Anaheim, Ottawa, Montreal, Edmonton (just kidding), San Jose, Buffalo... Point is we have a possible starter quality player watching the games on a monitor.  I don't know what goes on during the practices, so there may be a valid reason for this.  I'm not going to get bent about this, since this is a frequent occurance in Calgary.  Always earned has many ways to earn it.  

[MAC331]

Unless Ramo becomes more consistent for 60 minutes, he becomes a liability.  58 minutes he was comfortable and well positioned. He scrambled a bit, but some bad coverage was mostly to blame for that.  He is improving, while Hiller seems to be the same.  Typical starting goalie; doesn't wow you and doesn't steal many games.  Meh.

 

The problem I have right now is that when we have a solid looking prospect looking like he is ready to take the net, we don't run with it.  How many times have goalies come out of nowhere to steal the job.  Anaheim, Ottawa, Montreal, Edmonton (just kidding), San Jose, Buffalo... Point is we have a possible starter quality player watching the games on a monitor.  I don't know what goes on during the practices, so there may be a valid reason for this.  I'm not going to get bent about this, since this is a frequent occurance in Calgary.  Always earned has many ways to earn it.  

First let me say I am more concerned about the entire team's play than blaming our goaltending. In regards to Ortio, why did management bother to resign Ramo if Ortio is as good as some on here believe he is ? there must have been some reservation about Ortio. Now under roster protection something has to give and a decision has to be made soon. It doesn't appear that any trade is going to materialize through some other team's misfortune or injury.

[travel_dude]

First let me say I am more concerned about the entire team's play than blaming our goaltending. In regards to Ortio, why did management bother to resign Ramo if Ortio is as good as some on here believe he is ? there must have been some reservation about Ortio. Now under roster protection something has to give and a decision has to be made soon. It doesn't appear that any trade is going to materialize through some other team's misfortune or injury.

 

Our goalies have played average at time, stellar at others, but overall, just average.  

 

I think BT lost confidence with Hiller, so he signed Ramo.  BT does not decide who plays, though.  Hartley is going to go with the guys he feels are the top 2, whether that is based on last year or pre-season/camp/initial games.

[MAC331]

Our goalies have played average at time, stellar at others, but overall, just average.  

 

I think BT lost confidence with Hiller, so he signed Ramo.  BT does not decide who plays, though.  Hartley is going to go with the guys he feels are the top 2, whether that is based on last year or pre-season/camp/initial games.

I understand BH is feeling his way with the goaltending and you more or less have to at this time of year. Hiller as far as my thinking goes is the shakiest ( is that a word lol ) and the one I would be looking to unload.

[tmac70]

Here's the thing.....sample size.  You're referring to ONE game last year.  One.  30 minutes, actually.  And the only goalie who let any high-side shots in that game, was Hiller.

http://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/recap?id=2014020695

 

He's coming off two great AHL years.  He was called up last year, and got four straight wins in a row with us, including a shutout, and posting far superior numbers to Ramo or Hiller to that point.

 

Great.  Here's what's troubling:

 

He had ONE bad game (yes, it was bad).  Let in four goals.   Got pulled.  Whatever.

 

And he's Banished for Four months.  Banished.         (to be fair, was also injured).

 

We've seen both Ramo and Hiller play worse than that many, many times.  Including this year.  Are they banished?  Pulled even?  No.  We give them every opportunity to bounce back.  Every time.  And the fans have always been behind it too.  Nobody tolerates bad-mouthing them.   Ortio?   One mistake and he's gone for four months.    Because...he's young.  Let's face it, it's a double standard.

 

At the End of the season, the Flames put Ortio in net after not having played any hockey at any level for two months.  He was literally injured since February, and they put him in on April 11th, without any conditioning stint.   He struggled. Of course.   Means absolutely nothing, and nothing should be assumed from that game.

 

In the pre-season, Ortio was exceptional.  Whatever "book" the NHL had on him, it obviously got lost over summer.  He was our 2nd best goalie behind Hiller, who was also exceptional.  Yes, there was one specific play in one specific game where he fell apart with bad positioning.  And it was highlight-real bad.  But no goal was scored, and he won the game.   

 

Ultimately it really saddens me that, specifically with younger goalies, we have a culture here which immediately disqualifies them on one bad play.   When we should be looking at their Highest level of play to determine their potential as they gain experience and consistency.    With Ortio, that's NHL shutouts.  Two now.  Both in high-shot games.

 

We have no problems ignoring the bad play of our veteran goaltenders.  I can only assume that this is considered good sportsmanship?  Good fanship?  And that putting faith in younger prospects is maybe...disloyal?  Cheating on the veteran keeper?  Whatever the case, it's coming to an end soon.  The writing is on the wall, and I can't wait.

Your sample size is minute in the grand calculation of things. No one is disputing the fact that he was good in the AHL, preseason again AHL players. I again ask, is Ortio the best chance of winning right now I think not. Ramo/Hiller play well and allow a bad goal, last season we scored enough to off set that, this year not so much. Ortio is not the answer more offense is

[DirtyDeeds]

Our goalies have played average at time, stellar at others, but overall, just average.  

 

I think BT lost confidence with Hiller, so he signed Ramo.  BT does not decide who plays, though.  Hartley is going to go with the guys he feels are the top 2, whether that is based on last year or pre-season/camp/initial games.

 

 

I understand BH is feeling his way with the goaltending and you more or less have to at this time of year. Hiller as far as my thinking goes is the shakiest ( is that a word lol ) and the one I would be looking to unload.

I think you guys are overthinking the reasons why Ramo was bought back.

I think BT was just creating competition for the Goaltending.

 

One year contract, and you pretty much know what you are getting if you get the same tandem performance as last season. I don't think there was a trade or upgrade available and I don't think the Flames are ready to just give Ortio the backup reigns just yet.

[kehatch]

Keeping Ramo was the right decision. It protects and asset and forces competition for the position. Especially Ortio.

But Ortio earned starts in the preseason. And here we are with mediocre tending and three goalies with Ortio not even getting back up duties. It's not an ideal situation and the GM needs to fix it pronto.

[The_People1]

By not playing Ortio, i think it's clear we are not trading Ortio.  The plan is to showcase Ramo and Hiller for a trade, hoping that one of them would go on a hot streak, get the attention from other teams, and then bring us back a good return.  Unfortunately, both Hiller and Ramo have looked rather average so far.

[jjgallow]

Sorry to go off conversation at a rather critical junction...

 

But I couldn't help notice Denis Godla going undrafted Again:

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=106307

 

One of the best prospects out there anywhere, imho.  Can any team just sign him now?  What are the rules around that?

 

I don't think it'll be long before Gillies pushes his way up too, and we'll be a bit short on prospects.

[MAC331]

I think you guys are overthinking the reasons why Ramo was bought back.

I think BT was just creating competition for the Goaltending.

 

One year contract, and you pretty much know what you are getting if you get the same tandem performance as last season. I don't think there was a trade or upgrade available and I don't think the Flames are ready to just give Ortio the backup reigns just yet.

I think there is plenty to consider when you aren't part of the contract conversations. I'm sure when they gave Hiller the 2 year deal it would be on the premise he would be here. He is gone after this year and I'm sure Ramo was given this 1 year deal on the premise if he rises to the occasion there will be another contract to follow. Ortio is just to potentially good to give away for nothing.

[kehatch]

Can we play Ortio now? Please?? Pretty pretty please???

Sometimes Hartley is downright stubborn.

[xstrike]

Can we play Ortio now? Please?? Pretty pretty please???

Sometimes Hartley is downright stubborn.

If he was the backup tonight, he could've gone in after goal #4 but it was Ramo....

[darth_henning]

Admittedly Hiller still didn't get any goal support from the team in front of him, but man. That should have been a way closer game. 

 

Ortio needs to get a start and see what he can do.

[travel_dude]

Can we play Ortio now? Please?? Pretty pretty please???

Sometimes Hartley is downright stubborn.

 

It's downright scary what the goalie stats look like this year.  Ramo IMHO has played the best behind the worst Flames efforts.  Hiller looked ordinary tonight.  One good save.  That is it.  He didn't keep us in the game.  2-1 and we have a chance to come back. 3-1 and it's just about over.

[cross16]

If Hartley won't go to Ortio now then it's pretty clear to me he just has no confidence in him and if that's the case Treliving then has to do something because this has gone in long enough. The flames can't keep having a dead roster spot right now especially with the way they are playing. If Hartley has no confidence then waive Orito because why should they care if they lose him when the coach will never play him anyway.

Either way this has to get dealt with. The flames really should be using that roster spot to rotate and sit players that need to be sat but instead they have a 3rd goalie burning up the spot. It's just gone on too long.

[Wreckening]

If Hartley won't go to Ortio now then it's pretty clear to me he just has no confidence in him and if that's the case Treliving then has to do something because this has gone in long enough. The flames can't keep having a dead roster spot right now especially with the way they are playing. If Hartley has no confidence then waive Orito because why should they care if they lose him when the coach will never play him anyway.

Either way this has to get dealt with. The flames really should be using that roster spot to rotate and sit players that need to be sat but instead they have a 3rd goalie burning up the spot. It's just gone on too long.

+1

 

Couldn't agree more. Just doesn't make sense that they would keep this festering for so long.

[jjgallow]

Can we play Ortio now? Please?? Pretty pretty please???

Sometimes Hartley is downright stubborn.

 

We agree to agree.

[kehatch]

If Hartley won't go to Ortio now then it's pretty clear to me he just has no confidence in him and if that's the case Treliving then has to do something because this has gone in long enough. The flames can't keep having a dead roster spot right now especially with the way they are playing. If Hartley has no confidence then waive Orito because why should they care if they lose him when the coach will never play him anyway.

Either way this has to get dealt with. The flames really should be using that roster spot to rotate and sit players that need to be sat but instead they have a 3rd goalie burning up the spot. It's just gone on too long.

Especially with all of the injuries. We need that roster spot.

I don't get it. We are losing. The goalies are bad. Ortio "earned" the roster spot as he was the best guy in camp.

I get that Hartley is in a tough spot. He is sticking with his guys that got him there last season and he has that choice because he is forced to carry 3 goalies. He doesn't want to split games 3-ways because that disrupts everything. It's also tough for him to put this on the goalies because the team in front has been terrible.

But he needs to get over that. And Treliving needs to intervene and fix the 3 goalie problem.

 

EDIT: On waiving Ortio.  All respect to Hartley, but he doesn't have enough info to not have confidence in Ortio.  The kid looked good in the A and he looked good in preseason. He also looked good last season during his NHL call up outside of an Anaheim blowout.  He needs to play him to find out what they have in him.  

 

I am normally a fan of letting the coach coach.  But in this case Treliving needs to intervene.  If Ortio doesn't work out they need to consider trading for a goalie who is a better long term option then Ramo or Hiller.  We aren't rebuilding anymore and we can't be okay with sub par goal tending with no future. Sticking with Ramo and Hiller this year and then trying to figure it out next summer isn't acceptable IMO.   

[jjgallow]

 

EDIT: On waiving Ortio.  All respect to Hartley, but he doesn't have enough info to not have confidence in Ortio.  The kid looked good in the A and he looked good in preseason. He also looked good last season during his NHL call up outside of an Anaheim blowout.  He needs to play him to find out what they have in him.  

 

I am normally a fan of letting the coach coach.  But in this case Treliving needs to intervene.  If Ortio doesn't work out they need to consider trading for a goalie who is a better long term option then Ramo or Hiller.  We aren't rebuilding anymore and we can't be okay with sub par goal tending with no future. Sticking with Ramo and Hiller this year and then trying to figure it out next summer isn't acceptable IMO.   

 

I couldn't agree more.   Who on earth would waive the Only player who hasn't done poorly?  When they're the young prospect?

 

What does experience count for if the experience is playing poorly and losing?

 

How many games has sitting Ortio won us?

 

At this point, it's no longer about "give Ortio a chance for one game".  He's cold now.  Which never should have happened.  There is no way to fairly evaluate Ortio unless he is played for at least 10 games.   Bare, bare minimum.  Yes, a conditioning stint would work too.  But the only way you'll even get him in the AHL is if he stinks up the joint so severely that he becomes safe to waive.

 

And....I'll say it right now...that's not going to happen.  There will be no looking back after playing Ortio.

[MAC331]

Try this, try that, sorry but that is also no way to go about it. First you get your "deemed" regulars in there with the playing time. It is only 5 games in people and the bigger problem is out front of our goalies. Ortio is in a "protection hold" and I doubt there is any talk of giving him a start.

 

If puck possession was suppose to be a priority this season this is where we are failing miserably.

[kehatch]

Try this, try that, sorry but that is also no way to go about it. First you get your "deemed" regulars in there with the playing time. It is only 5 games in people and the bigger problem is out front of our goalies. Ortio is in a "protection hold" and I doubt there is any talk of giving him a start.

 

If puck possession was suppose to be a priority this season this is where we are failing miserably.

 

It isn't just about Ortio.  It is also about the extra roster spot.  We have a lot of injuries.  We also have a bunch of players that need to be sat.  But we don't have the roster space to do it because we have it wasted on a third goalie.  

 

Also, the fact that the team isn't good doesn't excuse all of the issues noted above (young goalie needing playing time, weak goals, 1-year contracts with no future, needing to know what we have in Ortio, etc).  

 

You are correct that it is only 5-games.  It could be as early as tomorrow that this is no longer a problem.  But until it is resolved it is a problem warranting discussion.