Goaltending

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

That is alarming. It seems like everyone he touches goes south on him.

 

To be fair, I don;t think he ruined Smith.

That was just a matter of time playing at a high level.

Like a pitch count in baseball.

 

Maybe it's more not recognizing when your goalie needs to sit.

Schedule?  Hopefully we don;t do that anymore.

[cross16]

I know most are fine with Smith but I think it would be prudent of the Flames to still monitor the goalie market.

 

Washington is an interesting place. Holtby had a down year, Grubaeur is going to start Game 1 and is an RFA, and now reports are their former first round pick and very good prospect Ilya Samsonov is going to sign with them in the off season. Giving he is coming from the KHL i'm skeptical he'll want to play in the AHL for long.

 

Something worth monitoring. If Grubauer plays well they probably shop Holtby and given his contract I don't think they could command that high a price. 

[JTech780]

11 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I know most are fine with Smith but I think it would be prudent of the Flames to still monitor the goalie market.

 

Washington is an interesting place. Holtby had a down year, Grubaeur is going to start Game 1 and is an RFA, and now reports are their former first round pick and very good prospect Ilya Samsonov is going to sign with them in the off season. Giving he is coming from the KHL i'm skeptical he'll want to play in the AHL for long.

 

Something worth monitoring. If Grubauer plays well they probably shop Holtby and given his contract I don't think they could command that high a price. 

 

Just to add to this, moving Holtby would allow them to clear enough cap space to bring Carlson back, plus they have to sign Wilson. If they decide to keep Holtby, I would go hard after Grubauer, I have been a big fan of Grubauer for a while now.

 

The other goalie that might be in a similar situation is Cory Schneider, Kinkaid has taken the number 1 job in NJ, and I can't see NJ wanting to pay $6m to a back up. Now there is a ton of risk with Schneider, he is 32 years old, he has 4 more years on his contract and he has had two straight sub par seasons. Prior to the last few seasons he was elite, so you taking the risk that he can find his way back to that elite level. He wouldn't be the number 1 choice but an option none the less. I do believe that goalies can preform at a high level well into their 30's

[cross16]

7 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Just to add to this, moving Holtby would allow them to clear enough cap space to bring Carlson back, plus they have to sign Wilson. If they decide to keep Holtby, I would go hard after Grubauer, I have been a big fan of Grubauer for a while now.

 

The other goalie that might be in a similar situation is Cory Schneider, Kinkaid has taken the number 1 job in NJ, and I can't see NJ wanting to pay $6m to a back up. Now there is a ton of risk with Schneider, he is 32 years old, he has 4 more years on his contract and he has had two straight sub par seasons. Prior to the last few seasons he was elite, so you taking the risk that he can find his way back to that elite level. He wouldn't be the number 1 choice but an option none the less. I do believe that goalies can preform at a high level well into their 30's

 

All signs to me point to them trading Holtby personally but I think that depends on how Grubauer does in the playoffs. If he falls on his face and Holtby plays well, plan probably changes but they could sure use his cap hit. Even if cap goes up to 80-82 they'd be in tight to get Carlsson under contract and field a team. That being said their GM did say this was the last year for this core and he expects to make changes if they cna't get it done so who knows what the plan is. 

 

I'll pass on Schneider personally. Probably better to just roll the dice on smith for 1 more year and try and get Gilles/Parsons/Rittich etc ready. 

[DirtyDeeds]

On 4/9/2018 at 6:25 PM, travel_dude said:

 

I would agree with the 2nd part of this.

Smith was as good as advertised...for 1/2 his season.

Were the fans the only ones to notice that his play fell off v=before he got injured?

What happened to Rittich?

Suddenly he starts doing a few things differently and starts to lose his edge?

 

Same goalie coach as last year.

Same goalie coach as the BH years.

 

Actually our goalie coach noticed a few things he was doing wrong and tried to tweak it during practice. Rittich was never the same after.

 

I remember the Fan960 bunch discussing why Smith was getting so many starts and one of them mentioned that Singalet  found a hole or something and was working with Rittich in practice on it.

[travel_dude]

16 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Actually our goalie coach noticed a few things he was doing wrong and tried to tweak it during practice. Rittich was never the same after.

 

I remember the Fan960 bunch discussing why Smith was getting so many starts and one of them mentioned that Singalet  found a hole or something and was working with Rittich in practice on it.

 

That goes to show you something doesn't it.....

 

Coach the skill right out of 'em.

Great idea.

[ABC923]

Are there any goalies that have improved under Sigalet? Any that have tread water at least?

[phoenix66]

2 hours ago, ABC923 said:

Are there any goalies that have improved under Sigalet? Any that have tread water at least?

Goalies of any Consequence that he has coached :

2011-2013- Abbotsford Heat

Karlsson - not much there to work with 
Irving - top prospect to out of the league
Brossoit (got demoted to Alaska )

 

2014-present  Calgary Flames 

Berra - not here long - neutral
Hiller - declined
Ramo - can be argued he improved
Ortio - went from top prospect to out of the league
Elliot - declined
Johnson - declined
Gillies - declined 
Rittich - declined 

Smith - neutral

so short answer is he is maybe helped one out of 12

 

 

Brian Elliot tonight -- 3 goals, 15 shots. .800   -- didnt see that coming ..  

[MAC331]

15 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Goalies of any Consequence that he has coached :

2011-2013- Abbotsford Heat

Karlsson - not much there to work with 
Irving - top prospect to out of the league
Brossoit (got demoted to Alaska )

 

2014-present  Calgary Flames 

Berra - not here long - neutral
Hiller - declined
Ramo - can be argued he improved
Ortio - went from top prospect to out of the league
Elliot - declined
Johnson - declined
Gillies - declined 
Rittich - declined 

Smith - neutral

so short answer is he is maybe helped one out of 12

 

 

Brian Elliot tonight -- 3 goals, 15 shots. .800   -- didnt see that coming ..  

I would say if anything this franchise has been to quick to give up on young goaltenders. Many you have on the list here are very small samples to indicate decline, not sure of the measure. Hiller was already on the decline and had head issues. Ramo got derailed by injuries IMO, Ortio another not given a full opportunity, Elliott and Johnson were IMO exactly what they always were same could be said for Smith. Rittich and Gilles I don't think it fair to say both declined, declined from what ?

[Carty]

15 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

 

Brian Elliot tonight -- 3 goals, 15 shots. .800   -- didnt see that coming ..  

 

It got even worse...   5 goals on 19 shots...   .737 SV%...   

[Cowtownguy]

2 hours ago, Carty said:

 

It got even worse...   5 goals on 19 shots...   .737 SV%...   

Wow. That statistic makes me wonder what percentage of shots are saved simply because someone is standing in the net. What is the pylon save percentage? Subtract the pylon save percentage from .737, and you seem to have a guy that is not...moving. You might still have a career in the NHL Carty!

[phoenix66]

4 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I would say if anything this franchise has been to quick to give up on young goaltenders. Many you have on the list here are very small samples to indicate decline, not sure of the measure. Hiller was already on the decline and had head issues. Ramo got derailed by injuries IMO, Ortio another not given a full opportunity, Elliott and Johnson were IMO exactly what they always were same could be said for Smith. Rittich and Gilles I don't think it fair to say both declined, declined from what ?

from the time they were called up almost on a per game basis .. by his last start Gillies was a tire fire , at first he was maybe a softie followed by closing the door .. Rittich went from no Bad goals in his first few starts to 1 or 2 a game by the end 

 

Think Eddie Lack.. in Vancouver he was coached to his strengths, Carolina tried to remake him .. he became a tire fire , look what the difference was when he was reunited with Rollie Melanson in NJ (his Vcr Coach ) 

2017-18	Calgary Flames	NHL	4	0	0	136	12	0	0	5.29	1	2	0	52	0.813
2017-18	New Jersey Devils	NHL	4	0	0	207	11	0	0	3.18	1	2	0	102	0.903

 

 

still not great but nearly a full % point higher in his SV%.  coaching makes a difference 

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

from the time they were called up almost on a per game basis .. by his last start Gillies was a tire fire , at first he was maybe a softie followed by closing the door .. Rittich went from no Bad goals in his first few starts to 1 or 2 a game by the end 

 

Think Eddie Lack.. in Vancouver he was coached to his strengths, Carolina tried to remake him .. he became a tire fire , look what the difference was when he was reunited with Rollie Melanson in NJ (his Vcr Coach ) 

2017-18	Calgary Flames	NHL	4	0	0	136	12	0	0	5.29	1	2	0	52	0.813
2017-18	New Jersey Devils	NHL	4	0	0	207	11	0	0	3.18	1	2	0	102	0.903

 

 

still not great but nearly a full % point higher in his SV%.  coaching makes a difference 

Sorry I'm not buying it. Two rookies just trying to do their best with a messed up team in front of them down a bad stretch. Hardly a platform for a proper evaluation of their talents.

[cross16]

24 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

from the time they were called up almost on a per game basis .. by his last start Gillies was a tire fire , at first he was maybe a softie followed by closing the door .. Rittich went from no Bad goals in his first few starts to 1 or 2 a game by the end 

 

Think Eddie Lack.. in Vancouver he was coached to his strengths, Carolina tried to remake him .. he became a tire fire , look what the difference was when he was reunited with Rollie Melanson in NJ (his Vcr Coach ) 

2017-18	Calgary Flames	NHL	4	0	0	136	12	0	0	5.29	1	2	0	52	0.813
2017-18	New Jersey Devils	NHL	4	0	0	207	11	0	0	3.18	1	2	0	102	0.903

 

 

still not great but nearly a full % point higher in his SV%.  coaching makes a difference 

 

Need some context here though...

 

In NJ he had 1 great start. Stopped 48 of 51 for .941. his other 2 starts?

 

.875 and .846 which is basically what he did in Calgary until the Detroit game. 

[phoenix66]

3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Need some context here though...

 

In NJ he had 1 great start. Stopped 48 of 51 for .941. his other 2 starts?

 

.875 and .846 which is basically what he did in Calgary until the Detroit game. 

thats still one more good game than he had here 

[cross16]

14 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

thats still one more good game than he had here 

 

Yup and Danny Sabourin had a shutout in the NHL too. Randomness. 

 

 

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

Yup and Danny Sabourin had a shutout in the NHL too. Randomness. 

 

 

point being , good goalie coaches typically have at least one good success story, even a minor one  .. Rollie, Burke, Allaire, Marcoux (Kipper anyway , he is also the one that tanked Lack), come to mind to top this list 

this guy has none ..from CHL(Everett), to the AHL(Abbotsford), to the NHL.

He's handled at least 2 supposed cant miss prospects and both are now out of the NHL, one is gone from North America,

Not saying its 100% his fault but his job was to improve them to the NHL level 

When they get up here now they should be improving .. not be stagnant or regress 

I'm open to argument, but show me one thing that looks good on his resume' to date?

[JTech780]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

point being , good goalie coaches typically have at least one good success story, even a minor one  .. Rollie, Burke, Allaire, Marcoux (Kipper anyway , he is also the one that tanked Lack), come to mind to top this list 

this guy has none ..from CHL(Everett), to the AHL(Abbotsford), to the NHL.

He's handled at least 2 supposed cant miss prospects and both are now out of the NHL, one is gone from North America,

Not saying its 100% his fault but his job was to improve them to the NHL level 

When they get up here now they should be improving .. not be stagnant or regress 

I'm open to argument, but show me one thing that looks good on his resume' to date?

 

I am not disagreeing with you, but there is no such thing as a can't miss goalie prospect.

[cross16]

13 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

I'm open to argument, but show me one thing that looks good on his resume' to date?

 

I"m not really for an argument on this. IMO we are not qualified to say a goalie coach is doing a good or bad job because we don't get to Hash Rate his day to day. We only Hash Rate results and results bring into play far more factors that are outside of a coaches control. If goalie coaching was so critical and of such high importance then why is the success rate of goalies so varied across organizations? You can bring up Allaire as probably the last great goalie coach and even his impact on the game has dwindled to nothing. He taught a revolutionary style and once the sport caught up his impact became nill.

 

I don't care if the Flames keep or fire Sigalet nor am i advocating they keep him. All I would say on this is I would have liked to see more talented goalies brought into the organization instead of the "best prospects not in the NHL" and a couple late round picks. I think the results of the Flames goalies since Kipper speaks more to their ability/job of bringing in goalies then it does their goalie coach. 

[MAC331]

14 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I am not disagreeing with you, but there is no such thing as a can't miss goalie prospect.

Don't ask me why but I think a guy like Jamie McLennan would make a good Goalie coach. What is he doing these days ?

[cross16]

15 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Don't ask me why but I think a guy like Jamie McLennan would make a good Goalie coach. What is he doing these days ?

 

Already tired it. Flames hired McLennan from 08-10 and he ended up leaving. If I recall correctly he didn't enjoy coaching. 

[phoenix66]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Already tired it. Flames hired McLennan from 08-10 and he ended up leaving. If I recall correctly he didn't enjoy coaching. 

That's right , I remember that , I think part of it was he found it awkward coaching Kipper, when used to be his backup .

Plus i think he's enjoying TV too much now

[DirtyDeeds]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I"m not really for an argument on this. IMO we are not qualified to say a goalie coach is doing a good or bad job because we don't get to Hash Rate his day to day. We only Hash Rate results and results bring into play far more factors that are outside of a coaches control. If goalie coaching was so critical and of such high importance then why is the success rate of goalies so varied across organizations? You can bring up Allaire as probably the last great goalie coach and even his impact on the game has dwindled to nothing. He taught a revolutionary style and once the sport caught up his impact became nill.

 

I don't care if the Flames keep or fire Sigalet nor am i advocating they keep him. All I would say on this is I would have liked to see more talented goalies brought into the organization instead of the "best prospects not in the NHL" and a couple late round picks. I think the results of the Flames goalies since Kipper speaks more to their ability/job of bringing in goalies then it does their goalie coach. 

NHL is a results oriented game. The whole thing about sports now is results. You can't give a goalie coach a free get out of jail card because he is judged on results. Sure we don't get to see him working day to day but the overall results should tell us how effective he really is.

 

I am with pheonix here. Give me 1 example of good results.

 

There were some rumours that when Ramo was waived, that Singalet worked with him and when we called him back up due to injuries Ramo played well. That was a rumour and I have no link to any credible source for that. That would be maybe one example of his success if true however wouldn't it be the Heats goalie coach who would have worked with him?

 

[travel_dude]

13 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

There were some rumours that when Ramo was waived, that Singalet worked with him and when we called him back up due to injuries Ramo played well. That was a rumour and I have no link to any credible source for that. That would be maybe one example of his success if true however wouldn't it be the Heats goalie coach who would have worked with him?

 

I remember a blogger talking about Ramo and that coaching moment.  I do believe it happened when he was on the Flames.

But, you are right, he didn't say who told him that.

 

Gillies spent less time in Calgary than Rttich.

Gillies returned and has won two in a row for the Heat.

Rittich spent a lot of time in Calgary and was just fine until he was the starter.

 

WHat I found most annoying was that after he played a good game and got a win, he doesn't get the next start.

During the 6 game losing streak (Jan-Feb), he started one game against EDM. 

Loses to them n the SO.

Next game go back with Smith; loss.

Next game go back with Smith; loss to Tampa.

Next game go back to Smith; win over CHI.

Next game go back to Smith; win over CHI.

B2B games, start Rittich in game 1, win over NJ.

Game 2; Smith loss to NY.

Next game go back to Smith; win but injury time.

 

Rittich has a rough time, but finally gets 2 wins in a row over BUFF and OTT.

Go back to Smith.  

 

I get the logic of running your starter as much as you can, but there were signs that your backup was ready to take on more games, or that your previosly injured goalie was not 100%.  With consistent goaltending in March, we would have been a playoff team.  Goalie coaching played a part in the performances, whether it was not recognizing readiness or changing parts of the rookies' games.  

 

[JTech780]

On 4/10/2018 at 0:40 PM, cross16 said:

 

All signs to me point to them trading Holtby personally but I think that depends on how Grubauer does in the playoffs. If he falls on his face and Holtby plays well, plan probably changes but they could sure use his cap hit. Even if cap goes up to 80-82 they'd be in tight to get Carlsson under contract and field a team. That being said their GM did say this was the last year for this core and he expects to make changes if they cna't get it done so who knows what the plan is. 

 

I'll pass on Schneider personally. Probably better to just roll the dice on smith for 1 more year and try and get Gilles/Parsons/Rittich etc ready. 

 

Grubauer fell on his face, 8 goals in less than 2 games. I think they have to keep Holtby, but I would still be interested in Grubauer. I don't think they can afford to keep both.