Goaltending

[cross16]

11 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Assuming they want Janko, we are trading from a position of strength for a position of weakness.  

 

We have LHS C up the ying yang.  We have so many C, we have to start moving some to LW.  We don't have goalies.  I think Ramus Andersson would be a tougher loss than Janko but still...tops out as a future 3/4 RHS RD.

 

Agree to a point but if you move both Bennett and Janko I would argue that strength becomes a weakness fast. Not a lot of other centers options past those 2 guys. 

 

I get they don't have goalies but goalies are not that difficult to acquire. It just depends on what level you are after. I know the last few years have been frustrating when it comes to goalies but I don't think that means you deviate form your plan and get a bit crazy with offering big trade packages. 

 

But I mean as fun as this discussion is, Pittsburgh isn't going to move Matt Murray not IMO at least. 

[conundrumed]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

Hard to know though if the Flames could have gotten him at that number. Adjusted for tax, he would take home over 500K more in Dallas than he would in Calgary at that AAV. I think its likely the Flames would have had to pay more. 

 

I personally get the sense the Flames dogged a bullet here. I think that is a really risky deal that Dallas is likely going to regret at some point.

 

EDIT: Bishop also got a NMC in the deal and Flames have said they will not give those out. Wonder if that has been a stumbling block all along with Bishop. 

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but NHL Radio was also saying it's a front loaded deal at $6 for the first 3-ish years and then diminishing, but they did not detail it year x year.

Basically getting a couple of diminished years to get the term Bishop wanted, but he essentially gets paid the $6 he wanted for the first 3-4.

 

I agree with you cross, this would have been one hot bullet and I'm looking forward to see if he can do any better than Lehtonen with that horrendous D.

If Dallas thinks they have a saviour, they better look at that D. Nill really needs to focus on D improvement now, because no goalie is stellar behind this D.

One hot mess(from CapFriendly):

Wanna guess where Shattenkirk is going?

 

DEFENSE (7 - $12,089,583)		TERMS	POS	STATUS	AGE	2016-17	2017-18	2018-19	2019-20	2020-21	2021-22	2022-23
Klingberg, John			D	NHL	24	$4,250,000	$4,250,000	$4,250,000	$4,250,000	$4,250,000	$4,250,000	UFA
Hamhuis, Dan		M-NTC	D	NHL	34	$3,750,000	$3,750,000	UFA
Oleksiak, Jamie			D	NHL	24	$918,750	RFA
Nemeth, Patrik			D	NHL	25	$900,000	RFA
Pateryn, Greg			D	NHL	26	$800,000	$800,000	UFA
Lindell, Esa		ELC	D	NHL	22	$745,833	RFA
Johns, Stephen			D	NHL	25	$725,000	$725,000	RFA

[cross16]

Funny enough, the numbers between Bishop and Lehtonen last year are not all that different. Only main different is Bishop was much better on low danger shots, but medium/high danger there really isn't a drop from Bishop to Lehtonen.

 

That being said I do think it was a down year and Bishop will bounce back and Lehtonen is on the downside of his career. However, I do agree that Bishop alone will not turn that team around. Goaltending is not their only problem. 

[phoenix66]

25 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Agree to a point but if you move both Bennett and Janko I would argue that strength becomes a weakness fast. Not a lot of other centers options past those 2 guys. 

 

I get they don't have goalies but goalies are not that difficult to acquire. It just depends on what level you are after. I know the last few years have been frustrating when it comes to goalies but I don't think that means you deviate form your plan and get a bit crazy with offering big trade packages. 

 

But I mean as fun as this discussion is, Pittsburgh isn't going to move Matt Murray not IMO at least. 

also I think the returns are getting way too overpay

 

Anderson went for a 1st and a 2nd

Schneider was a 1st rounder

 

yes, Murray has a cup and tremendous potential, but take away his cup run and he's of similar stature to these 2..  cant recall but even when Vancouver 1st acquired Luongo it wasn't a major blockbuster , it was basically Luongo for Bertuzzi..and he was established..  I think 1 or 2  1st rounders and Gillies gets it done.

 

but yes, just dreaming cuz i dont see it happening 

[conundrumed]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Funny enough, the numbers between Bishop and Lehtonen last year are not all that different. Only main different is Bishop was much better on low danger shots, but medium/high danger there really isn't a drop from Bishop to Lehtonen.

 

That being said I do think it was a down year and Bishop will bounce back and Lehtonen is on the downside of his career. However, I do agree that Bishop alone will not turn that team around. Goaltending is not their only problem. 

 

I always knew Niemi was bad, even with Chicago and a Cup. He's laughable bad at times.

Lehtonen, I think Dallas made him a lot worse than he actually is.

That poor sob has 14 years as a pro. None with a very good team. Atlanta to Dallas...poor guy.

Last year's playoffs, okay, I get it.

But Nill, are you kidding me? You cut your teeth in Detroit, what are you doing?

Benn

Seguin

Spezza

Sharp

Hemsky even

wtf are you doing?

2 goalies at too much coin.

Zero D. Thankfully Holland was firmly in Detroit's seat, did he teach you nothing?

Now he is total reactionary...who the hell are you? Glen Sather?

Dallas is a TOTAL buyer of all things D now. Holy predictable. Can't see Nill lasting...

 

This is an exact example of why we shouldn't over-react on things.

Pretty sure we have 3D that are Dallas' #1D, Stone would be, at very worst, a 3. Likely even Engelland lol.

Can't believe that they didn't want Wideman?

[The_People1]

48 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Do you know why all teams should want to be strong down the middle with talented Centers ? because they have a lot of overall ice responsibilities which if strong in their game helps goalies tremendously. The Flames have been waiting for years to have this strength and I wouldn't be giving it up so easily. We can have solid goaltending without trading the farm.

 

No one is giving them up for nothing.  We get one of the best 22 year old goalies in the world.

 

42 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Agree to a point but if you move both Bennett and Janko I would argue that strength becomes a weakness fast. Not a lot of other centers options past those 2 guys. 

 

I get they don't have goalies but goalies are not that difficult to acquire. It just depends on what level you are after. I know the last few years have been frustrating when it comes to goalies but I don't think that means you deviate form your plan and get a bit crazy with offering big trade packages. 

 

But I mean as fun as this discussion is, Pittsburgh isn't going to move Matt Murray not IMO at least. 

 

Fun to talk about... And depends if MAF uses his NMC to stay and forces Pittsburgh's hands.

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

No one is giving them up for nothing.  We get one of the best 22 year old goalies in the world.

 

 

Fun to talk about... And depends if MAF uses his NMC to stay and forces Pittsburgh's hands.

 

i think if it got to that point they'd buy him out first but I also don't think it's going to come to that. All reports are he and the pens have a great relationship. 

But a non zero chance so does make for valid discussion. 

[conundrumed]

I've been having a real alternative thought lately. LV doesn't take Lehtonen (they take Niemi, lol).

Nill has to buy him out, you aren't going to do the $12mil tandem after the $10mil tandem worked out so well.

God, I shouldn't be trying to read Nill.

Lehtonen's cheap on a buyout, and a $5.9 buyout? If he wants to play, he must REALLY want to play.

Protect Elliott, re-sign 3x$4mil.

Lehtonen 1 x $2 *Show me*.

We have to buy a yr or 2 on our developing goalies.

Let's develop goalies. Imagine what kind of message we send to our goalie prospects with a 6 yr to Bishop.

Lehtonen is not a solution, maybe Price is next year, who knows.

Just looking at options...

[conundrumed]

Think those 2 old pricks won't be competing with each other.

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

No one is giving them up for nothing.  We get one of the best 22 year old goalies in the world.

 

 

Fun to talk about... And depends if MAF uses his NMC to stay and forces Pittsburgh's hands.

1 of the best 22 year old goalies on a particular team. For 1 year he was that!

What you were offering rebuilds the Pengies in 1 fell swoop. Way too much.

Pitts is in a bind depending what MAF does.

If he refuses to waive they can buy him out @ 1.9 x 4 cap hit which isn't chump change for a team with 15 players (without Fleury) & after a buyout about 16 to fill those spots. Schultz & Dumolin will take a big chunk of that so that leaves callups that they can't afford to have hit bonuses.

If MAF does waive it comes down to what the market offers given a glut of goalies with only a few teams in the market. Retention on salary gets a better return but also cuts into cap space. Offers @ full price likely = a 3rd after the GMs check out the UFA market which is after the LV expansion so Pitts isn't driving the bus if they intend to keep Murray.

 

Murray's new contract is 3.75 x 3. Given the # of goalies slated to be looking for jobs you can get 1 with a bigger body of work in that range for nothing but the money. Highest I'd go is this year's 1st or go after someone else. If left exposed LV will take him & likely keep him but with a gentle nudge be persuarded to take Grubauer &/or Raanta/Hellberg as well making 1 available. Other options like the decision in Detroit have been mentioned.

 

The worst thing we could do is fixiate on 1 goalie & overpay. Especially in a buyers market.

[Flyerfan52]

11 hours ago, MAC331 said:

What is Okposo's health situation or future, this could be up in the air presently.

I read today it was an adverse "reaction to medication"  given him to deal with a concussion. Expected to be ready for training camp.

I've taken prescriptions that rather than fix a problem laid me out so it's not something that scares me. If it worries new GM Botterill (I expect it won't as his dad is a Dr./sports therapist) we can maybe get him a bit cheaper.

[jjgallow]

 

the other goalie Pittsburgh may have to let go is Tristan Jarry.

 

No slouch.  And a lot cheaper.

 

Juuse Saros, Ville Husso....    

 

just my thoughts.

[Thebrewcrew]

12 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

the other goalie Pittsburgh may have to let go is Tristan Jarry.

 

No slouch.  And a lot cheaper.

 

Juuse Saros, Ville Husso....    

 

just my thoughts.

How about Korpisalo? His playing style reminds me of Kipper. He had a really solid season 2 years ago with CBJ (on a bad team). This year with Bob's play he struggled to get starts and wasn't quite as good.

[Flyerfan52]

51 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

the other goalie Pittsburgh may have to let go is Tristan Jarry.

 

No slouch.  And a lot cheaper.

 

Juuse Saros, Ville Husso....    

 

just my thoughts.

Even if they are willing to lose Jarry they can still only protect 1 of  MAK or Murray. I doubt LV will go to their 3rd goalie unless Pitts gives them a top 3 forward to back off & their best 4 have MNCs.

 

BTW, Jarry seems to have a hard time adjusting to playing pro. Average @ best  but every team has those they hope to groom into a starter. His 1 NHL game was a throw away season finisher with pretty bad stats.

I want someone that doesn't look like a deer in the headlights playing against men. If we go with a kid I want 1 that has @ least been a backup in the NHL or played against men in the Euro leagues (where they see a lot of rubber).

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

the other goalie Pittsburgh may have to let go is Tristan Jarry.

 

No slouch.  And a lot cheaper.

 

Juuse Saros, Ville Husso....    

 

just my thoughts.

He's exempt from the draft

[jjgallow]

6 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

He's exempt from the draft

 

fair enough, those rules are over my head

[jjgallow]

46 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Even if they are willing to lose Jarry they can still only protect 1 of  MAK or Murray. I doubt LV will go to their 3rd goalie unless Pitts gives them a top 3 forward to back off & their best 4 have MNCs.

 

BTW, Jarry seems to have a hard time adjusting to playing pro. Average @ best  but every team has those they hope to groom into a starter. His 1 NHL game was a throw away season finisher with pretty bad stats.

I want someone that doesn't look like a deer in the headlights playing against men. If we go with a kid I want 1 that has @ least been a backup in the NHL or played against men in the Euro leagues (where they see a lot of rubber).

 

Fair enough, so that's essentially Matt Murray or Vasilevsky or Juuse Saros, or Ilya Sorokon I figure...not sure who else.

 

The cost would be considerable.

 

I was more thinking for backup, or for the AHL.    But getting ahead of myself there.   But, if you had a few potentials, pretty good chance one would take the lead

[cross16]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

the other goalie Pittsburgh may have to let go is Tristan Jarry.

 

No slouch.  And a lot cheaper.

 

Juuse Saros, Ville Husso....    

 

just my thoughts.

 

All decent talents, Saros especially but none eligible for the expansion draft and I think in all cases I don't see their clubs giving them up. Saros is well positioned to take over from Rinne in a couple years. 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

All decent talents, Saros especially but none eligible for the expansion draft and I think in all cases I don't see their clubs giving them up. Saros is well positioned to take over from Rinne in a couple years. 

 

Agreed (although anything could happen), and that's why I'm more interested in some of the higher risk prospects that could actually be had.

 

I think you could make and arguement that Veini Vehvilainen was among the best, if not the best at the WJC, and he's freely available as best I understand.

 

There's a big prize to be had for the first NHL team that takes the Right risk on the Right goalie at or under 6 feet tall.

 

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

How about Korpisalo? His playing style reminds me of Kipper. He had a really solid season 2 years ago with CBJ (on a bad team). This year with Bob's play he struggled to get starts and wasn't quite as good.

 

Eric Duhatschek has been pumping him up the last day or so on radio.  If he can be had for cheap, then I will give him a try.

 

He also made a good point that Juuse Saros is small (5-11) and teams figured him out in the second half of the season.  I also think with goalie gear size restrictions that being a bigger goalie means a natural advantage.

[cross16]

I like Korpisolo too. Not likely as a 40+ game starter so you'd need a strong platoon

[conundrumed]

Pittsburgh is jammed up and will have to make a decision. Rutherford chose not to move MAF so if you let him choke on it let LV take him.

Why ransack our C depth to help out the Pens? Not understanding, are we extending Stajan because we traded away our depth?

Lose Bennett AND Jankowski?? And replace with whom at what cost??

I like Treliving a lot and trust he's got a plan.

One player is always one injury away from losing him on top of everything you gave up for him.

I know that's pessimistic, but that was the case for Pitts. MAF gets hurt, loses out to Murray and vice versa.

[jjgallow]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Eric Duhatschek has been pumping him up the last day or so on radio.  If he can be had for cheap, then I will give him a try.

 

He also made a good point that Juuse Saros is small (5-11) and teams figured him out in the second half of the season.  I also think with goalie gear size restrictions that being a bigger goalie means a natural advantage.

 

I like everything about Korpisalo except that Duhatschek is pumping him up  based on a few games.   He also struggled a lot this year, he could definitely be had on the cheap.

 

As for Saros, the size issue could be true but if you take all preconceived notions away (and ignore Eric Duhatschek), it was really Korpisalo who got figured out this season.  

https://www.nhl.com/player/juuse-saros-8477424?stats=gamelogs-r-nhl&season=20162017

 

Also keep in mind that Saros is a year younger, and all NHL his accomplishments last year were at the unusually young age of 21.  Not true for Korpisalo.  

 

Again, just looking at performance and ignoring all preconceived notions, Saros is the better goalie, who maintained his play more consistently throughout the season, and is also younger.    While it is true that he kept the game to just one goal more often in December, he also generally had less shots against him in December.  More likely, the team got more comfortable with him and let him see more rubber and better quality scoring chances.  His save percentage dropped  a bit but was still one that we here in Calgary would be envious of with any of our veterans.

 

His AHL and international performances are worthy of elite attention.   Also, he has shown dramatic and consistent improvement Every year, at every level.   If he has even one more year of improvement at that level, he becomes an elite NHL goalie.

[conundrumed]

Saros isn't available though, we need to keep that in mind. Nashville really knows goalies and always have. I'm envious of that part.

Whoever scouts goalies for them is/are rock solid.

By all accounts, they love Saros and Rinne has really taken him under his wing as his successor.

A big part of Rinne right now is Saros affording him more rest this year, Rinne's "off" years were just playing too much. Look at him now, worth every penny.

I'm pretty meh to Korpisammysalo. We can do better, even just standing still with Elliott and CJ.

 

[DirtyDeeds]

On 5/12/2017 at 9:25 AM, JTech780 said:

Dallas just signed Bishop to 6 years at $4.9m AAV. Not gonna lie that stings a little. Would have loved to have Bishop at that AAV.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 10:25 AM, The_People1 said:

 

I'm surprised at the AAV.  I thought he would come in at up to $7-mil-per and that was rumored to be his ask from last summer.

Dallas can offer no state taxes and it was on Bishop's "would go there" list. Our price would have been higher and the term would of had to be similar in length.