Goaltending

[conundrumed]

12 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Apparently they haven't even talked to Darling's agent yet. 

 

If they do get him signed that is one team off the list of suitors for other goalies.

I'm thinking the keys to Darling's heart is giving him an opportunity to be a #1 and Carolina can certainly offer that. So he'd be the protected one and I wouldn't be surprised to see Ward in LV. A year at 3.3 for a goalie with background, maybe grab Khudobin, that's not a bad start on the backend for a new franchise.

[Flyerfan52]

53 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Apparently they haven't even talked to Darling's agent yet. 

 

If they do get him signed that is one team off the list of suitors for other goalies.

Unless they intend to tandem him with a goalie to be signed after the free agent frenzy leaves the good 1s that aren``t household names available, looking for work & not expecting $6-7 million long term.

A 3rd (especially the later Ottawa 1 rather than their own) for 1st crack at the backup expected to be likely to be a starter. A bird in the hand.

 

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Unless they intend to tandem him with a goalie to be signed after the free agent frenzy leaves the good 1s that aren``t household names available, looking for work & not expecting $6-7 million long term.

A 3rd (especially the later Ottawa 1 rather than their own) for 1st crack at the backup expected to be likely to be a starter. A bird in the hand.

 

Darling to CAR for a 3rd round pick, good bye to Darling as an option for us.

[Flyerfan52]

1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

Darling to CAR for a 3rd round pick, good bye to Darling as an option for us.

Yeah, unless the Canes really insult him with their offer he'll likely be signed within the week.

Anyone want Ward or Lack? 1 should be available with  the other exposed to Vegas.

************************************************************

Nobody, including LV, wants Lehtonen or Neimi @ their contract so Dallas will either have to eat 50% to trade 1 or buy @ least 1 out if they hope to improve.

 

[MAC331]

Just now, Flyerfan52 said:

Yeah, unless the Canes really insult him with their offer he'll likely be signed within the week.

Anyone want Ward or Lack? 1 should be available with  the other exposed to Vegas.

************************************************************

Nobody, including LV, wants Lehtonen or Neimi @ their contract so Dallas will either have to eat 50% to trade 1 or buy @ least 1 out if they hope to improve.

 

CAR will ante up, Ward is past his prime and they don't like Lack at all.

[cross16]

I liked darling but the fact a team was willing to give up a 3rd tells me he's viewed as a starter around the league. I'll be curious to see the $ but I wonder if Carolina will have to pay up to the tune if 3.5-4 mill or more. That sounds a lot of coin for a guy whose never started, but let's see. 

[phoenix66]

11 hours ago, cross16 said:

I liked darling but the fact a team was willing to give up a 3rd tells me he's viewed as a starter around the league. I'll be curious to see the $ but I wonder if Carolina will have to pay up to the tune if 3.5-4 mill or more. That sounds a lot of coin for a guy whose never started, but let's see. 

Agreed, and see, Carolina is a perfect team to do this. Nobody, including them , expects them to be a force next season. They can break in a new starter and let him develop with out the pressure. If it doesn't work out , nobody is worse off for it.

 

Our expectation doesnt allow for failure ..last year was our window to take that chance. I still agree with the route we took, we wanted stable goaltending to make the playoffs, and we got that in spades.. but making the playoffs is no longer the goal 

 

Anybody who doesn't think we need a proven stud at the back , isn't watching the Anaheim Oliers series. I'll go so far as to say we played them harder and better than Edmonton has so far , but their guy is stopping the ones he has to ..that's the big difference .We should have been up 2-0 as well.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

Agreed, and see, Carolina is a perfect team to do this. Nobody, including them , expects them to be a force next season. They can break in a new starter and let him develop with out the pressure. If it doesn't work out , nobody is worse off for it.

 

Our expectation doesnt allow for failure ..last year was our window to take that chance. I still agree with the route we took, we wanted stable goaltending to make the playoffs, and we got that in spades.. but making the playoffs is no longer the goal 

 

Anybody who doesn't think we need a proven stud at the back , isn't watching the Anaheim Oliers series. I'll go so far as to say we played them harder and better than Edmonton has so far , but their guy is stopping the ones he has to ..that's the big difference .We should have been up 2-0 as well.

Who is this stud you speak of ?

[phoenix66]

25 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Who is this stud you speak of ?

Well last night it was Talbot..night before It was Fleury... first round it was Allen, Rinne ... but we dont have the luxury anymore of looking for the next Talbot ..we dont even have the luxury (I dont think ) of hoping next year Elliot can be the guy..

If I'm learning anything watching the Oilers do what we couldn't, it's that if we had the goaltending , we'd have beaten them.

 

We need a proven winner.. a proven PLAYOFF winner(more than once )..This team is ready to at least make some noise, but they need that guy back there to step up .. and it needs to be someone that consistently always steps up 

 

Bishop

Fleury / Murray(if he actually becomes available we should  go after him with everything we got)

 

I cant think of another , who's realistically available , who fits on this list 

 

yes, Bishop and Fleury have had stumbles..  yes both have had injuries, welcome to the NHL..; but both have had success on a consistent basis of putting a team on their back and running.. not just a flash and hoping for lightning to strike twice..no pun intended..

and yes, you will have to pay Bishop.. we have the room, and no Johnny/Mony style raises coming for a few years .. Bennett has earned himself a Bridge contract only 

 

John Gibson I believe is your best all around comparable to John Gilles.. it took to his 5th pro season to get the #1 job.. that puts Gilles , if you factor his injured year , 4  years out from owning the net outright . If he does it sooner and creates a dilemma with a vet in place, so be it, that's a problem any team wants to have.

That vet also allows you to groom your successor..next season but more likely the 1 after , Gillies will be ready to play 20-30 games.. but to do that you need the guy that can carry the other 55-65 games.. and still be ready for maybe up to 28 more

 

If you are insisting on doing that "next Talbot" search.. and i still think the window is done ... then you put that Guy in the #2 spot and make him win it ... personally the only 2 that would make me consider doing that if the price was right  now is Berube from NYI or Korpisalo from CLB.. but now you are seriously hindering Gillies potentially .. myself I put Johnson back in that #2 role next season 

 

 

BT made a very bold statement when he talked of raising the bar .. how many years have all we heard was "lets make the playoffs "..  the Sutter years was basically "lets make the playoffs then anything can happen "..   I dont know how many people caught it , but that was a statement that makes HIM accountable ..  playoffs are not a goal, they are an expectation ..winning rounds is the goal now .. last year he took responsibility for the goaltending , and he did something about it..  He's now making himself personally accountable to ice a team that can be playing in May at the least..   

 

You dont do that icing a team with a question mark in goal

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

BT made a very bold statement when he talked of raising the bar .. how many years have all we heard was "lets make the playoffs "..  the Sutter years was basically "lets make the playoffs then anything can happen "..   I dont know how many people caught it , but that was a statement that makes HIM accountable ..  playoffs are not a goal, they are an expectation ..winning rounds is the goal now .. last year he took responsibility for the goaltending , and he did something about it..  He's now making himself personally accountable to ice a team that can be playing in May at the least..   

 

I agree with the theory behind this.  We absolutely should be aiming higher than making the playoffs.   The goal should be to win the cup.  But, there is a big difference between talk and action.   Sutter has numerous Stanley Cups.

 

Also, when Sutter first started saying that, he was a coach here, with a very young team with very low expectations "the young guns".  It's ok for a coach to say that on an underperforming team, I think.  That's just breaking things down into achievable goals the players can focus on.  

 

What's not okay is to hear it from a GM.  And I DO agree, Sutter was wrong to talk that way as a GM.   He wasn't ready for that role (although he might be now).   But, again, I actually put that blame higher up in the organization for making him a GM when his head wasn't fully wrapped around it yet.    He didn't even ask, his preference was to remain a coach.   

 

And BT:  Saying lots of good things but I am not convinced on the follow through yet.  I have seen some good decisions, and I have seen some really bad decisions that this team will have to live with for a generation.

[phoenix66]

18 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

   He didn't even ask, his preference was to remain a coach.   

 

Not true, it was part of why he was hired.. he wanted to be a GM.. he fired himself and moved upstairs after 2 seasons as Coach GM

[MAC331]

3 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Well last night it was Talbot..night before It was Fleury... first round it was Allen, Rinne ... but we dont have the luxury anymore of looking for the next Talbot ..we dont even have the luxury (I dont think ) of hoping next year Elliot can be the guy..

If I'm learning anything watching the Oilers do what we couldn't, it's that if we had the goaltending , we'd have beaten them.

 

We need a proven winner.. a proven PLAYOFF winner(more than once )..This team is ready to at least make some noise, but they need that guy back there to step up .. and it needs to be someone that consistently always steps up 

 

Bishop

Fleury / Murray(if he actually becomes available we should  go after him with everything we got)

 

I cant think of another , who's realistically available , who fits on this list 

 

yes, Bishop and Fleury have had stumbles..  yes both have had injuries, welcome to the NHL..; but both have had success on a consistent basis of putting a team on their back and running.. not just a flash and hoping for lightning to strike twice..no pun intended..

and yes, you will have to pay Bishop.. we have the room, and no Johnny/Mony style raises coming for a few years .. Bennett has earned himself a Bridge contract only 

 

John Gibson I believe is your best all around comparable to John Gilles.. it took to his 5th pro season to get the #1 job.. that puts Gilles , if you factor his injured year , 4  years out from owning the net outright . If he does it sooner and creates a dilemma with a vet in place, so be it, that's a problem any team wants to have.

That vet also allows you to groom your successor..next season but more likely the 1 after , Gillies will be ready to play 20-30 games.. but to do that you need the guy that can carry the other 55-65 games.. and still be ready for maybe up to 28 more

 

If you are insisting on doing that "next Talbot" search.. and i still think the window is done ... then you put that Guy in the #2 spot and make him win it ... personally the only 2 that would make me consider doing that if the price was right  now is Berube from NYI or Korpisalo from CLB.. but now you are seriously hindering Gillies potentially .. myself I put Johnson back in that #2 role next season 

 

 

BT made a very bold statement when he talked of raising the bar .. how many years have all we heard was "lets make the playoffs "..  the Sutter years was basically "lets make the playoffs then anything can happen "..   I dont know how many people caught it , but that was a statement that makes HIM accountable ..  playoffs are not a goal, they are an expectation ..winning rounds is the goal now .. last year he took responsibility for the goaltending , and he did something about it..  He's now making himself personally accountable to ice a team that can be playing in May at the least..   

 

You dont do that icing a team with a question mark in goal

Good post but you really didn't answer the question, who would be your choice ? It is not an easy question to answer. Look at MON and Price out in the first round, why because he had an off season and they are not a great team. We are not a great team yet and got better than average goaltending this season. I am not high on MAF never have been. Bishop is way to much of an injury risk to give 6 and 6M too. One goalie that might be available and looking for a change is Lehner BUF who at one time was the reason OTT traded Bishop. I think he is still young enough and good enough for the Flames to go after, very competitive person.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

Not true, it was part of why he was hired.. he wanted to be a GM.. he fired himself and moved upstairs after 2 seasons as Coach GM

 

Hmm...not what I understood.  But I could be wrong.  Either way, I don't fault him on the comments he made as a coach.

 

As a GM, yeah.  But that was a long time ago...so long that his mistakes actually set us up for our rebuild.   Not his fault that we didn't learn from his mistakes and see it through.

 

When Burke was hired here, one of the first things he said was that he was an impatient person with not a lot of time left, and wanted to see some results before he retired.   That, to me, was quite shocking considering he was put in charge of a team rebuilding.   From that time, we essentially cut our rebuild short, foregoing on all the best players of this generation, and we have seen "some results".

 

But, I don't blame Burke either.  Someone hired him too.  Someone who values steady cash flow more than Stanley Cups.

[phoenix66]

58 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Good post but you really didn't answer the question, who would be your choice ? It is not an easy question to answer. Look at MON and Price out in the first round, why because he had an off season and they are not a great team. We are not a great team yet and got better than average goaltending this season. I am not high on MAF never have been. Bishop is way to much of an injury risk to give 6 and 6M too. One goalie that might be available and looking for a change is Lehner BUF who at one time was the reason OTT traded Bishop. I think he is still young enough and good enough for the Flames to go after, very competitive person.

I did answer..Bishop first choice or Fleury/Murray 2nd  

here are your top 10 Goalies with more than 15 games of playoff experience since 98

the only ones on this list realistically available are Smith, Bishop, Murray and Halak 

Smith is already 35.. too old.. Halak , well, hasn't been the same in quite awhile.. Fleury Isnt in the top 10, which is why  Bishop is my #1 target 

The injuries are not an issue for me ..hasn't stopped him from being a top goaltender in this league

If youre going to go by past injuries , you would say No to Murray , Price and Lundqvist too

 

 

1	Mike Smith	G	19	17	10	8			650	614	36	.945	1.88	1146:58	3	0	1	1	14
2	Braden Holtby	G	53	53	26	27			1673	1564	109	.935	1.95	3356:13	4	0	2	2	6
3	Craig Anderson	G	34	34	17	16			1141	1064	77	.933	2.23	2072:44	4	0	1	1	0
4	Tuukka Rask	G	53	53	30	23			1705	1583	122	.928	2.12	3450:02	5	0	2	2	2
5	Ben Bishop	G	36	36	21	13			966	895	71	.927	2.09	2041:24	5	0	3	3	4
6	Martin Jones	G	32	30	16	14			859	795	64	.925	2.01	1906:44	4	0	0	0	0
7	Jaroslav Halak	G	30	28	13	15			855	790	65	.924	2.39	1632:54	0	0	0	0	2
8	Matt Murray	G	21	21	15	6			575	531	44	.923	2.08	1267:16	1	0	0	0	4
9	Jake Allen	G	19	15	8	7			431	398	33	.923	2.10	941:58	0	0	0	0	0
10	Henrik Lundqvist	G	123	123	59	62			3654	3373	281	.923	2.25	7488:34	10	0	1	1	0

[MAC331]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I did answer..Bishop first choice or Fleury/Murray 2nd  

here are your top 10 Goalies with more than 15 games of playoff experience since 98

the only ones on this list realistically available are Smith, Bishop, Murray and Halak 

Smith is already 35.. too old.. Halak , well, hasn't been the same in quite awhile.. Fleury Isnt in the top 10, which is why  Bishop is my #1 target 

The injuries are not an issue for me ..hasn't stopped him from being a top goaltender in this league

If youre going to go by past injuries , you would say No to Murray , Price and Lundqvist too

 

 

1	Mike Smith	G	19	17	10	8			650	614	36	.945	1.88	1146:58	3	0	1	1	14
2	Braden Holtby	G	53	53	26	27			1673	1564	109	.935	1.95	3356:13	4	0	2	2	6
3	Craig Anderson	G	34	34	17	16			1141	1064	77	.933	2.23	2072:44	4	0	1	1	0
4	Tuukka Rask	G	53	53	30	23			1705	1583	122	.928	2.12	3450:02	5	0	2	2	2
5	Ben Bishop	G	36	36	21	13			966	895	71	.927	2.09	2041:24	5	0	3	3	4
6	Martin Jones	G	32	30	16	14			859	795	64	.925	2.01	1906:44	4	0	0	0	0
7	Jaroslav Halak	G	30	28	13	15			855	790	65	.924	2.39	1632:54	0	0	0	0	2
8	Matt Murray	G	21	21	15	6			575	531	44	.923	2.08	1267:16	1	0	0	0	4
9	Jake Allen	G	19	15	8	7			431	398	33	.923	2.10	941:58	0	0	0	0	0
10	Henrik Lundqvist	G	123	123	59	62			3654	3373	281	.923	2.25	7488:34	10	0	1	1	0

I said I wouldn't pay Bishop 6x6M because of the injury history, not that he isn't a good goalie. To be honest I think you either get lucky with goalies or you don't, some are better than others but some of the best never get you a SC. It's a team game and always will be, making it into the playoffs should always be a goal because it holds true that once in anything can happen due to a hot goaltender. You only have to look at what is happening right now with this season's playoffs.

[phoenix66]

37 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I said I wouldn't pay Bishop 6x6M because of the injury history, not that he isn't a good goalie. To be honest I think you either get lucky with goalies or you don't, some are better than others but some of the best never get you a SC. It's a team game and always will be, making it into the playoffs should always be a goal because it holds true that once in anything can happen due to a hot goaltender. You only have to look at what is happening right now with this season's playoffs.

And yet you want to get Lehner , whos injured half the time?

You're assuming 6x6?  i think you get him done with 4x6

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Hmm...not what I understood.  But I could be wrong.  Either way, I don't fault him on the comments he made as a coach.

 

As a GM, yeah.  But that was a long time ago...so long that his mistakes actually set us up for our rebuild.   Not his fault that we didn't learn from his mistakes and see it through.

 

When Burke was hired here, one of the first things he said was that he was an impatient person with not a lot of time left, and wanted to see some results before he retired.   That, to me, was quite shocking considering he was put in charge of a team rebuilding.   From that time, we essentially cut our rebuild short, foregoing on all the best players of this generation, and we have seen "some results".

 

But, I don't blame Burke either.  Someone hired him too.  Someone who values steady cash flow more than Stanley Cups.

For the bolded, it's too early to say that. Both Mony, especially, and Johnny can still be that. I don't see many current players that can snipe like Monahan from the slot, that is definitely his gift, and his FO% has steadily increased every year. With more seasoning, I can see him becoming Toews-like at the dot and constantly sniping 30+

We have a lot to look forward to, just depends on your perspective.

[Flyerfan52]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Good post but you really didn't answer the question, who would be your choice ? It is not an easy question to answer. Look at MON and Price out in the first round, why because he had an off season and they are not a great team. We are not a great team yet and got better than average goaltending this season. I am not high on MAF never have been. Bishop is way to much of an injury risk to give 6 and 6M too. One goalie that might be available and looking for a change is Lehner BUF who at one time was the reason OTT traded Bishop. I think he is still young enough and good enough for the Flames to go after, very competitive person.

Price didn't have an offseason. He was the reason the Habs advanced. The reason Montreal lost was Lundqvist kept the Rags in it while the Habs couldn't score. With some firepower among the skaters they should have advanced. Don't hang that on Price.

We didn't get better than average goaltending. The 22nd & 24th ranked goalies did not provide that.

 

 

[MAC331]

37 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Price didn't have an offseason. He was the reason the Habs advanced. The reason Montreal lost was Lundqvist kept the Rags in it while the Habs couldn't score. With some firepower among the skaters they should have advanced. Don't hang that on Price.

We didn't get better than average goaltending. The 22nd & 24th ranked goalies did not provide that.

 

 

Sorry I should have said half off season, you are correct he is the reason they get anywhere. I think we did get better than average goaltending down the stretch and into the playoffs. Teams have to overcome the odd soft or bad goal, it can't all be hung on the goalies. Did you watch the OTT / NYR game today, even the best let some soft goals get by them.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

And yet you want to get Lehner , whos injured half the time?

You're assuming 6x6?  i think you get him done with 4x6

Lehner's been hanging in there health wise lately. Hey I'm not arguing with you I am just leary of Bishop and someone will go 6x6, we won't get him.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Price didn't have an offseason. He was the reason the Habs advanced. The reason Montreal lost was Lundqvist kept the Rags in it while the Habs couldn't score. With some firepower among the skaters they should have advanced. Don't hang that on Price.

We didn't get better than average goaltending. The 22nd & 24th ranked goalies did not provide that.

 

Gsus...you are fired up today.

 

I haven't completely decided yet but I think I might kinda like it lol

 

I'll agree with you here, can't blame Price.   But I don't agree on the problem.   I believe deficiencies at defence are the reason Price didn't finish first in the league, and also why Montreal lacked the possession it needed.

 

And, I'll say the same thing about the Flames.  Hard to tell if we got above-average goaltending.   But imho, it was good enough not to be our biggest problem.  

[Kipper14]

Feels like we missed the boat on Darling, he had that same kinda scenerio as Talbot, backup on a solid team ready to take on a #1 starters role somewhere.

 

Feels to me the clear choice to go after right now is Bishop, and then resign either Elliott or Johnson to remain as a solid backup to play 20-25 games or possibly take over if Bishop falters.

 

Fleury is playing lights out right now for Pitts, but he still worries me with his mental lapses at times, he can either play like the best goalie in the world or be very average.

 

With Elliotts up and down season, and with his last goal allowed in Game 4, I bet he'd sign on for another year at 1.5-2 million, sucks for him cause his stock was sky high heading into playoffs, and then absolutely plummeted in 4 games. There is speculation that Winnipeg may be a fit for him but if that happens, Johnson wants to remain a Flame.

[MAC331]

We always just get our views on here and it makes me wonder what the players thought are on Elliott and Johnson's efforts. I hate seeing a constantly revolving door with our goaltending. This team was to be transitioning into more of a puck possession style of play and I don't know that the team achieved their goal. We saw a lot of coughed up pucks all over the ice and plenty of times when we should have gotten out of our own zone and didn't When this was occurring the scramble was on and we received many good saves in these circumstances from Elliott and Johnson. Nobody likes soft goals being allowed but they happen to all the goalies, maybe its time to stick together and support each other by bringing back both Elliott and Johnson on 2 year deals. We have it seems a good back up brewing with Rittich for any injury coverage and this would allow Gilles real time to be NHL ready.

[DirtyDeeds]

11 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

We always just get our views on here and it makes me wonder what the players thought are on Elliott and Johnson's efforts. I hate seeing a constantly revolving door with our goaltending. This team was to be transitioning into more of a puck possession style of play and I don't know that the team achieved their goal. We saw a lot of coughed up pucks all over the ice and plenty of times when we should have gotten out of our own zone and didn't When this was occurring the scramble was on and we received many good saves in these circumstances from Elliott and Johnson. Nobody likes soft goals being allowed but they happen to all the goalies, maybe its time to stick together and support each other by bringing back both Elliott and Johnson on 2 year deals. We have it seems a good back up brewing with Rittich for any injury coverage and this would allow Gilles real time to be NHL ready.

I would ask the question(to all) why most on these boards are willing to give the players a free get out of jail card on our season yet want to hold the goaltenders to task for the season?

 

That and no one has pointed fingers at the coaches.

 

Is the system not the right one for this team?

Easy to say we need play a possession style but if we can't play that style effectively then we are paddling this canoe against the currents.

ie: LA is one of the better possession teams in league.. A lot of good that did them when you can't score.

Chicago is a good possession team. They got bumped from playoffs in 4 games too.

[MAC331]

Just now, DirtyDeeds said:

I would ask the question(to all) why most on these boards are willing to give the players a free get out of jail card on our season yet want to hold the goaltenders to task for the season?

 

That and no one has pointed fingers at the coaches.

 

Is the system not the right one for this team?

Easy to say we need play a possession style but if we can't play that style effectively then we are paddling this canoe against the currents.

ie: LA is one of the better possession teams in league.. A lot of good that did them when you can't score.

Chicago is a good possession team. They got bumped from playoffs in 4 games too.

I would say this team made continuous progress while implementing these new system but by no means perfected them. I think we have a systems this team can grow into together which is why I bring up the point why not with the same goaltenders ? Stick together, well except for the ones that are on their way out anyways.