Goaltending

[conundrumed]

Wideman is an issue, there's no doubt about it.  You are right there.  And I'm not seeing the rebound year for him.

 

Hamilton needs guidance.  I don't feel he's getting it.  I don't think he got it from Hartley.  I don't think it's a skillset of the new coach either (hoping I'm wrong).   He could be one of the truly elite D in the league, or he could become another wideman.   I was hoping to see them either bring in the right coaching assistant, or a veteran D mentor for him.  I applauded his acquisition.  But if they don't have a development plan for him, they shouldn't have made the trade to be honest.

 

Engelland?  We can't do any better there?

 

I like Jokipakka, but I don't like him enough.  I like him a lot on the Heat.

 

We essentially have two great D.   Brodie and Giordano.

 

Giordano is getting old.   Argue it, start a thread, but he's Still...getting old.

 

That's it.   

 

Wideman, no.    Hamilton?  Loads of potential.   What are the Flames going to do with it?

 

I honestly see the Flames as having two top-four defencemen in the top 4 that belong there.   Brodie and Giordano.

 

 

I would put a plan together for Hamilton, I would get an upgrade on Wideman (preferably younger).   And you would have an ok top 4.  For now.

 

Bottom four, I would almost start over.

But in terms of cap, I believe we're the highest in the league allocated to D. My thinking is the problem is more about getting D dollars in line in favour of making other improvements. Smid and Wideman are erased for 2 $4mil forwards, not for more D spending in my perfect world.

With that, I think improvement becomes trading a top 3, I wouldn't pull that trigger atm.

To say Engelland and Jokipakka needs much upgrade, I don't agree. Your 5-6 aren't going to be Hamhuis-Lindholm unless they're 19 on ELC's.

Engelland is salt. Salt we need and the salt we lack. Bollig isn't scaring anyone.

Pull Engelland out of our roster in the Van series. Van tested the dirtier waters of changing the tides of the series. It was Engelland that held that fort.

As a 6-7 and a definitive need, I wouldn't argue over-paying for that.

As kehatch said, you're turning white into grey, I kind of agree.

We have long been too scrambling in the d zone. That isn't the d core, it's the team D imho.

 

Just for conversation, I don't have a link, but it's being rumoured that Calgary will sign Russell again at much cheaper than his original hopes.

Russell at $3 when Smid is done?

[jjgallow]

....

Engelland is salt. Salt we need and the salt we lack. Bollig isn't scaring anyone.

.....

 

Just for conversation, I don't have a link, but it's being rumoured that Calgary will sign Russell again at much cheaper than his original hopes.

Russell at $3 when Smid is done?

 

So, I guess I would ask (sorry to abbreviate your quote).....which one is it?

 

Do we need salt, or do we need a smallish forward who we put on the D position?

 

Maybe....if we were less inclined to acquire small players who aren't really defencemen, and play them as defencemen...

 

 

Maybe...then, we wouldn't need as much "salt"....and maybe we could then actually use a real defencemen, instead of putting "salt" there?

 

Why not just have good defensemen?

 

I dunno.   I guess we'll see soon enough.

 

p.s....I think your rumor is correct.

[conundrumed]

So, I guess I would ask (sorry to abbreviate your quote).....which one is it?

 

Do we need salt, or do we need a smallish forward who we put on the D position?

 

Maybe....if we were less inclined to acquire small players who aren't really defencemen, and play them as defencemen...

 

 

Maybe...then, we wouldn't need as much "salt"....and maybe we could then actually use a real defencemen, instead of putting "salt" there?

 

Why not just have good defensemen?

 

I dunno.   I guess we'll see soon enough.

 

p.s....I think your rumor is correct.

Again, the Van series, if we didn't have an answer, they'd have taken full advantage.

[The_People1]

Just for conversation, I don't have a link, but it's being rumoured that Calgary will sign Russell again at much cheaper than his original hopes.

Russell at $3 when Smid is done?

 

I'd much rather sign Nakladal than Russell.

[cccsberg]

I can't actually read the middle paragraph, speaking of drinking.

 

Put it this way.

 

Most teams, after getting more goals scored on them than anyone else in the league....   upgrade their defencemen in Some way (unless they're trying to tank).

 

Getting more goals scored on us than any team in the league, and making no upgrades to our defencemen, is a new strategy in the NHL.

 

We will see how that plays out.

We did upgrade:  a full season of DH settling in (and much better), Jokipakka added, Russel traded.  That sounds like three big changes to me.  In addition, of course, new coaching and systems and a HUGE upgrade with the two goalies.  But as you said, we shall see.  

[conundrumed]

I'd much rather sign Nakladal than Russell.

We're so fickle and short term.

It was only 2 seasons ago when Gio went down and Russell and Wideman stepped up to the extreme.

They played a ton of hockey. Last year they got off to a flat start like the rest of the team, it just kept compounding with shoddy goals and never finding a rhythm, like most of the team.

[The_People1]

We're so fickle and short term.

It was only 2 seasons ago when Gio went down and Russell and Wideman stepped up to the extreme.

They played a ton of hockey. Last year they got off to a flat start like the rest of the team, it just kept compounding with shoddy goals and never finding a rhythm, like most of the team.

 

Russell and Wideman were dominated by the Ducks in the second round.  We need better.  We shouldn't spend $8-mil on this combo again.  Time to move on.  

[conundrumed]

Russell and Wideman were dominated by the Ducks in the second round.  We need better.  We shouldn't spend $8-mil on this combo again.  Time to move on.  

But our top pairing is Gio and Brodie, not Wideman and Russell.

[cross16]

Obviously the coach and the G are important for team defence, but D is D.  It's the nuts and bolts of it, sorry.

 

The Flames had the Worst goals against in the league and they:

 

1.  Did Nothing to upgrade their D

2.  Hired a coach who is known to be offensively slanted.

 

Elliot will probably hide a lot of this.    On a team that had a defensively responsible coach, and a top D core, he could be a cup winner right now.

 

Instead, he will mask the problem.  Make it even less likely that it'll ever get addressed.   Much like Kipper did at the same age.  Hiller too.

 

You will see Elliot come in strong, and then you will see his stats decline, just as Kipper's did, just as Jonas Hiller's did, just as Ramo's did.   And the cycle will repeat until the Flames finally figure it out one day.

 

It's a waste, imho.  An upgrade, yes.  But a poorly thought out one, and a sadly predictable one.

I think you are making things up to fit your narrative. What are you basing this "Gulutzan is offensively minded" coach from because his teams in Dallas were better in the GA department then they were GF and at was with one of the worst d cores in the league at the time. Not to mention he just came from coaching defence and special teams in Van.

I agree on paper the flames did not improve their d but I think what you are not giving enough credit to is they really didn't have to. Between have their too 3 ready and healthy as well as Jokipakka for a full season they are all ready better. Last years d was not plagued by a lack of talent they were plagued by a lack of execution.

[DirtyDeeds]

I think you are making things up to fit your narrative. What are you basing this "Gulutzan is offensively minded" coach from because his teams in Dallas were better in the GA department then they were GF and at was with one of the worst d cores in the league at the time. Not to mention he just came from coaching defence and special teams in Van.

I agree on paper the flames did not improve their d but I think what you are not giving enough credit to is they really didn't have to. Between have their too 3 ready and healthy as well as Jokipakka for a full season they are all ready better. Last years d was not plagued by a lack of talent they were plagued by a lack of execution.

And injuries along with recovery from injuries.

 

• It was obvious to me that Gio was still recovering to start the season.
• Brodie was injured for a lengthy time and when he finally returned the team played much better.
• Goaltending sucked to start the season. It was so bad two goalies were waived and no one claimed them.
• Hamilton did not adjust quickly.
• Wideman Russell pairing was not nearly playing at the same level from previous season.

With improved goaltending that we have this season, the D should be able to play an aggressive game. How could the D play their game when every time they made an error the goaltenders couldn't bail them out ?

[jjgallow]

I think you are making things up to fit your narrative. 

 

I think you start your posts off with carefully worded but inflammatory and instigating remarks to start long and drawn out conversations so that you can avoid chores your wife gives you, and add to your 15,000 some odd posts lol.

 

But I could be wrong.

 

He likes offense and excitement.   So in terms of us having some offensive defenceman..sure.  I guess you could say he's into defencemen.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/new-flames-coach-glen-gulutzan-talks-offensive-strategy-goals-1.3641687

 

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/gulutzan-named-flames-coach-wants-to-make-calgary-a-exciting-connected-team/

[JTech780]

Our D-core is one of the most talented d-core's in the league. Hartley didn't properly utilize the skating ability of our defenseman in the defensive zone. Instead using the elite skating ability of guys like Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton and even Russell, to attack the puck carrier, he just had our defense keep backing up till they were in the crease, preferring to block shots as opposed to stopping the shots before they happen.

 

I think the change in systems will have as big of an impact on our GA as Elliott and Johnson will. 

 

I think if you look at it on paper our d-core is probably more talented than Chicago's. Chicago plays an aggressive defensive system attacking the puck carrier all over the ice, similar to what I believe Gulutzan will put in place here in Calgary. That system is what allows Chicago's D-core to thrive and Chicago to be very good defensively.

 

If you are aggressive and attack the puck on the defensive side it allows you to transition to offense more often and quicker. 

[conundrumed]

Obviously the coach and the G are important for team defence, but D is D.  It's the nuts and bolts of it, sorry.

 

The Flames had the Worst goals against in the league and they:

 

1.  Did Nothing to upgrade their D

2.  Hired a coach who is known to be offensively slanted.

 

Elliot will probably hide a lot of this.    On a team that had a defensively responsible coach, and a top D core, he could be a cup winner right now.

 

Instead, he will mask the problem.  Make it even less likely that it'll ever get addressed.   Much like Kipper did at the same age.  Hiller too.

 

You will see Elliot come in strong, and then you will see his stats decline, just as Kipper's did, just as Jonas Hiller's did, just as Ramo's did.   And the cycle will repeat until the Flames finally figure it out one day.

 

It's a waste, imho.  An upgrade, yes.  But a poorly thought out one, and a sadly predictable one.

I sort of agree with you jj, but it IS team D that has be come sadly predictable. Every goalie since Kipper has shown it, can't keep blaming goalies.

But just like JTech is saying, we have to get on hot puck pursuit. Our roster for the '04 roster kinda sucked. But what did Sutter do there and what is he doing with the Kings?

There are times when you have to say GA are a product of the team, I believe this is one of them.

Too tentative and scrambly on D, it's like the zone our teams go to to catch their breath.

Get everyone chopping salad and getting after it in the neutral and D zones and I seriously believe we'll see a difference.

[Flyerfan52]

There seem to be articles everywhere about how close Bishop was to being a Flame. Say he was in the process of working out a new contract when they traded for Elliot. I guess BT didn't like the #s.

At least it means he wouldn't be averse to playing for Calgary. Something to keep in mind if he hits UFA.

[travel_dude]

There seem to be articles everywhere about how close Bishop was to being a Flame. Say he was in the process of working out a new contract when they traded for Elliot. I guess BT didn't like the #s.

At least it means he wouldn't be averse to playing for Calgary. Something to keep in mind if he hits UFA.

What I had read was that Bishop was in discussions and was surprised that they went a different direction.  He also said that the report of want 7x7 was a farce.  The tipping point seems to have been Stevie Y wanting too much.

[conundrumed]

There seem to be articles everywhere about how close Bishop was to being a Flame. Say he was in the process of working out a new contract when they traded for Elliot. I guess BT didn't like the #s.

At least it means he wouldn't be averse to playing for Calgary. Something to keep in mind if he hits UFA.

I like that BT was all over everything, that's what he's hear for.

I'm hoping bigtime Gillies pulls a Holtby!

Imagine a world where we had a valuable asset or 2 to trade, as opposed to, not much value to "get rid of".

But as you allude to, the conversation is open to Bishop, could that be a leg up?

What I had read was that Bishop was in discussions and was surprised that they went a different direction.  He also said that the report of want 7x7 was a farce.  The tipping point seems to have been Stevie Y wanting too much.

Stevie's managed the elbowing out of everything this past year. Impressive.

[kehatch]

The Flames have a top 3 of Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton. They have strong depth in Jokipakka, Wideman, and Engelland. They have NHL ready kids like Kulak and Wotherspoon.

Sure the goal against was poor last year. But that isn't the type of D you get all panicked about. That is a very strong line up thst most were putting forward as one of the best in the NHL a season ago.

The Flames have a new coaching staff and two new goalies. Suggesting there wasn't an upgrade or suggesting we are doomed to another season of a poor GA is just wrong imo.

I would like to see a bit of a tweak in the bottom 3. But between contracts and the draft lottery that may not be in the cards, and thst certainly isn't the end of the world.

[jjgallow]

The Flames have a top 3 of Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton.

 

They have two, if Giordano stays healthy and competitive.   Hamilton is not top 3.  He has limitless potential if developed properly.  It's different.

 

They have strong depth in Jokipakka, Wideman, and Engelland.

 

Are you messing with me?

 

They have NHL ready kids like Kulak and Wotherspoon.

 

Seriously, are you messing with me?  They do have Some D prospects worth discussing and neither of these two are them.

Sure the goal against was poor last year.

 

No, it wasn't poor.  Poor, is below the league average.  We were last in the league.

 

Last.  In. The League.

 

Poor is not an acceptable choice of words to describe that.

 

But that isn't the type of D you get all panicked about. That is a very strong line up thst most were putting forward as one of the best in the NHL a season ago.

 

Last in the league.  And we kept it basically the same.   We have some offensive defencemen, yes.  That isn't the issue or even relevant, really.

The Flames have a new coaching staff and two new goalies. Suggesting there wasn't an upgrade or suggesting we are doomed to another season of a poor GA is just wrong imo.

 

The suggestion was that we didn't upgrade our D.  The D position.   Tell me that's wrong.  If you can't do that, it's because you're honest.  If you can, it's because you're twisting things.  Like the original statement.

I would like to see a bit of a tweak in the bottom 3. But between contracts and the draft lottery that may not be in the cards, and thst certainly isn't the end of the world.

 

Nothing is the end of the world, true.

[MAC331]

 

The Flames have a top 3 of Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton.

 

They have two, if Giordano stays healthy and competitive.   Hamilton is not top 3.  He has limitless potential if developed properly.  It's different.

 

They have strong depth in Jokipakka, Wideman, and Engelland.

 

Are you messing with me?

 

They have NHL ready kids like Kulak and Wotherspoon.

 

Seriously, are you messing with me?  They do have Some D prospects worth discussing and neither of these two are them.

Sure the goal against was poor last year.

 

No, it wasn't poor.  Poor, is below the league average.  We were last in the league.

 

Last.  In. The League.

 

Poor is not an acceptable choice of words to describe that.

 

But that isn't the type of D you get all panicked about. That is a very strong line up thst most were putting forward as one of the best in the NHL a season ago.

 

Last in the league.  And we kept it basically the same.   We have some offensive defencemen, yes.  That isn't the issue or even relevant, really.

The Flames have a new coaching staff and two new goalies. Suggesting there wasn't an upgrade or suggesting we are doomed to another season of a poor GA is just wrong imo.

 

The suggestion was that we didn't upgrade our D.  The D position.   Tell me that's wrong.  If you can't do that, it's because you're honest.  If you can, it's because you're twisting things.  Like the original statement.

I would like to see a bit of a tweak in the bottom 3. But between contracts and the draft lottery that may not be in the cards, and thst certainly isn't the end of the world.

 

Nothing is the end of the world, true.

 

Every year is different and I would suggest you quit looking in the rear view mirror.

[conundrumed]

 

The Flames have a top 3 of Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton.

 

They have two, if Giordano stays healthy and competitive.   Hamilton is not top 3.  He has limitless potential if developed properly.  It's different.

 

They have strong depth in Jokipakka, Wideman, and Engelland.

 

Are you messing with me?

 

They have NHL ready kids like Kulak and Wotherspoon.

 

Seriously, are you messing with me?  They do have Some D prospects worth discussing and neither of these two are them.

Sure the goal against was poor last year.

 

No, it wasn't poor.  Poor, is below the league average.  We were last in the league.

 

Last.  In. The League.

 

Poor is not an acceptable choice of words to describe that.

 

But that isn't the type of D you get all panicked about. That is a very strong line up thst most were putting forward as one of the best in the NHL a season ago.

 

Last in the league.  And we kept it basically the same.   We have some offensive defencemen, yes.  That isn't the issue or even relevant, really.

The Flames have a new coaching staff and two new goalies. Suggesting there wasn't an upgrade or suggesting we are doomed to another season of a poor GA is just wrong imo.

 

The suggestion was that we didn't upgrade our D.  The D position.   Tell me that's wrong.  If you can't do that, it's because you're honest.  If you can, it's because you're twisting things.  Like the original statement.

I would like to see a bit of a tweak in the bottom 3. But between contracts and the draft lottery that may not be in the cards, and thst certainly isn't the end of the world.

 

Nothing is the end of the world, true.

 

There's a lot of validity in jj's comment's, call it the Gallow's Poll lol.

We are, literally, the worst D in the league.

Who gives up 260 in a year? 30th in the league. 30th. It's a 30 team league.

We just did, that's who.

So we can patsy around this "little problem" like it ain't a big deal. But it's a huge deal.

If our goalies are always so bad, why can't our D pick up the play?

Again. Team problem, and a big one.

[travel_dude]

There's a lot of validity in jj's comment's, call it the Gallow's Poll lol.

We are, literally, the worst D in the league.

Who gives up 260 in a year? 30th in the league. 30th. It's a 30 team league.

We just did, that's who.

So we can patsy around this "little problem" like it ain't a big deal. But it's a huge deal.

If our goalies are always so bad, why can't our D pick up the play?

Again. Team problem, and a big one.

 

Perhaps we can lay some of the blame on an area that was a huge factor.  Goaltending.  And, no, it isn't Calgary's failure to develop NHL goaltending that caused the mess.  Want an easy goal?  Take a shot from the top of the circle high.  Bang, in the net.  Or take a quick shot after a faceoff win.  Hiller should already be on his knees.  

 

Goals against tends to be a team stats, while SA% is square on the goalie.  Worst in the league. 

[cccsberg]

The Flames have a top 3 of Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton.

 

They have two, if Giordano stays healthy and competitive.   Hamilton is not top 3.  He has limitless potential if developed properly.  It's different.

 

They have strong depth in Jokipakka, Wideman, and Engelland.

 

Are you messing with me?

 

They have NHL ready kids like Kulak and Wotherspoon.

 

Seriously, are you messing with me?  They do have Some D prospects worth discussing and neither of these two are them.

Sure the goal against was poor last year.

 

No, it wasn't poor.  Poor, is below the league average.  We were last in the league.

 

Last.  In. The League.

 

Poor is not an acceptable choice of words to describe that.

 

But that isn't the type of D you get all panicked about. That is a very strong line up thst most were putting forward as one of the best in the NHL a season ago.

 

Last in the league.  And we kept it basically the same.   We have some offensive defencemen, yes.  That isn't the issue or even relevant, really.

The Flames have a new coaching staff and two new goalies. Suggesting there wasn't an upgrade or suggesting we are doomed to another season of a poor GA is just wrong imo.

 

The suggestion was that we didn't upgrade our D.  The D position.   Tell me that's wrong.  If you can't do that, it's because you're honest.  If you can, it's because you're twisting things.  Like the original statement.

I would like to see a bit of a tweak in the bottom 3. But between contracts and the draft lottery that may not be in the cards, and thst certainly isn't the end of the world.

 

Nothing is the end of the world, true.

Well I totally disagree with your assessment and inferences. So glad you are not in Flame's management. So tell me, what did you say last year?

[kehatch]

The Flames have a top 3 of Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton.

They have two, if Giordano stays healthy and competitive. Hamilton is not top 3. He has limitless potential if developed properly. It's different.

They have strong depth in Jokipakka, Wideman, and Engelland.

Are you messing with me?

They have NHL ready kids like Kulak and Wotherspoon.

Seriously, are you messing with me? They do have Some D prospects worth discussing and neither of these two are them.

Sure the goal against was poor last year.

No, it wasn't poor. Poor, is below the league average. We were last in the league.

Last. In. The League.

Poor is not an acceptable choice of words to describe that.

But that isn't the type of D you get all panicked about. That is a very strong line up thst most were putting forward as one of the best in the NHL a season ago.

Last in the league. And we kept it basically the same. We have some offensive defencemen, yes. That isn't the issue or even relevant, really.

The Flames have a new coaching staff and two new goalies. Suggesting there wasn't an upgrade or suggesting we are doomed to another season of a poor GA is just wrong imo.

The suggestion was that we didn't upgrade our D. The D position. Tell me that's wrong. If you can't do that, it's because you're honest. If you can, it's because you're twisting things. Like the original statement.

I would like to see a bit of a tweak in the bottom 3. But between contracts and the draft lottery that may not be in the cards, and thst certainly isn't the end of the world.

Nothing is the end of the world, true.

The Flames have a strong D group on paper and just replaced their goalies and coach. I don't see the point in getting all bent out of shape because they didn't make wholesale changes to the D group.

Let's see how the D performs with a new coach, goalies, and the roster tweaks. The draft lottery and contract status limits what the GM can do anyway and there are plenty of reasons to be optimistic things will turn around without wholesale changes.

[conundrumed]

You've also gotta remember jj, it's all sown in very tightly, even Wideman, you can't just wave your hand in the air and be done with it.

Each move comes at a cost, getting Brouwer and getting better answers at G are busy brushstrokes that maybe you can't make if you're shopping to improve your most expensive in the league D.

My problem with the D is that it's too expensive.

When I hear Brouwer at a little too long for too much I can't help but laugh. We spend 1/2 the cap on D.

Now that it's not just Bennett, but Tkachuk also coming soon, I love the Frolik and Brouwer signings as our vets.

 

But getting back to D, the costs will drop at the end of the year.

And there is a flip side in that Wideman's playing for a contract, so that might mean something.

But shifting $9mil out of D and into forwards is something I'm really looking forward to.

Better guys up front will help the GF-GA ratio.

[cccsberg]

I'm really looking forward to our goalie play to start this season.  That is ALL of the goalies, from Parsons and Schneider in Junior to McDonald, Gillies and Rittich in the AHL/ECHL and Elliot and Johnson in the NHL.  With the two NHL goalies unsigned and the issues around the Expansion Draft I'd anticipate some extensions being signed mid-season so the early play will probably go a long ways to determining what our goalie outlook will be to end the season and going into 2017.   It could easily be almost exactly the same to very, very different with major changes at every level.  Most of all I'm hoping they all have excellent seasons so no matter which direction we end up going we'll have great options in them all.