Goaltending

[conundrumed]

Eric Frances *spit* was on NHL radio saying the Flames have already started talking to Elliot about extension.

Frances thought it was really dumb, so I guess it's probably really smart!

 

Good ol Eric tends to overlook considering things before being hyper-critical.

Elliot's a vet, you know his game. Your welcoming him and letting him know he is sorely wanted here. He is the guy they want, opening extension talks tout suit let's him know we want him to have stability for his family and we believe in him.

Now if our Sun reporter had an ounce of class, he might understand what it looks like...

[travel_dude]

Eric Frances *spit* was on NHL radio saying the Flames have already started talking to Elliot about extension.

Frances thought it was really dumb, so I guess it's probably really smart!

 

Good ol Eric tends to overlook considering things before being hyper-critical.

Elliot's a vet, you know his game. Your welcoming him and letting him know he is sorely wanted here. He is the guy they want, opening extension talks tout suit let's him know we want him to have stability for his family and we believe in him.

Now if our Sun reporter had an ounce of class, he might understand what it looks like...

 

I think it's a pretty low-risk move, even if they re-signed him before he played a single game.  He's elite.  Had Tarasenko actually been able to score against SJS, they might have made some noise.

[cross16]

As we are becoming fully aware with the RFAs, "talking" and "signing" are two VERY different things.

 

I think it would be irresponsible of the Flames to not be at least talking with his reps. I don't think he will sign anytimre soon but I think you need the dilagoue open and to create a relationship with he and his reps when/if they don't want to sign him to an extention. 

 

Small details like that Francis tends to miss then sensationalizations the "consequences"  

[travel_dude]

As we are becoming fully aware with the RFAs, "talking" and "signing" are two VERY different things.

 

I think it would be irresponsible of the Flames to not be at least talking with his reps. I don't think he will sign anytimre soon but I think you need the dilagoue open and to create a relationship with he and his reps when/if they don't want to sign him to an extention. 

 

Small details like that Francis tends to miss then sensationalizations the "consequences"  

 

At least Francis isn't saying too much about Johnny right now.  If he did, he would be saying things like "miles apart", "wants to play in the East after this contract", etc.  He should be nicknamed Click-bait.

[jjgallow]

You can't really say that Ortio was burning up the AHL, so he wasn't a NHL goalie being developed.  

We chose MacDonald over Demko - no proof either will be a NHL goalie.

Did I miss a bunch of NHL-capable goalies on the market?  Murray and Vasilevskiy weren't available to us.

 

Murray won Pitts the cup, but MAF got them to the playoffs.  Bishop got TBL to the playoffs and the start of playoffs.  Had Bishop been healthy, we may not be talking about Pitts being the powerhouse with elite goaltending.  

 

Who was the best goalie in regular season and playoffs combined?  Wasn't Murray, unless you talk about wins in the playoffs.  So, a competant goalie with above average regular season stats can be the guy that brings the cup to a city.

 

hmmm  

 

Speaking of opinion...

 

All I know, is that the Flames did zero to upgrade their D.   And their D was, imho, below average.  Without question, it was not Stanley Cup D.

 

Anything is possible, but the Flames brought in an upgrade on G, without the other necessary positional upgrades.

 

If you're saying Elliot could win a cup...I agree.  I would even go so far as to say you're under-selling him.  He's much more than competent.

 

But win a cup on his own?  Not gonna happen.    And he is already in the latter half of his prime.   Had they developed someone younger who would be around for future improvements on D, then that someone could potentially contribute to a cup run.

 

So yes, the Flames upgraded G.   But as a temporary measure.  Again.

[conundrumed]

At least Francis isn't saying too much about Johnny right now.  If he did, he would be saying things like "miles apart", "wants to play in the East after this contract", etc.  He should be nicknamed Click-bait.

It's because Johnny is unassailable in league-wide opinion, otherwise it would likely be quite painful.

[travel_dude]

hmmm  

 

Speaking of opinion...

 

All I know, is that the Flames did zero to upgrade their D.   And their D was, imho, below average.  Without question, it was not Stanley Cup D.

 

Anything is possible, but the Flames brought in an upgrade on G, without the other necessary positional upgrades.

 

If you're saying Elliot could win a cup...I agree.  I would even to so far as to say you're under-selling him.  He's much more than competent.

 

But win a cup on his own?  Not gonna happen.    And he is already on latter half of his prime.   Had they developed someone younger who would be around for future improvements on D, then that someone could potentially contribute to a cup run.

 

So yes, the Flames upgraded G.   But as a temporary measure.  Again.

 

So how long do you figure Elliott can play at this level?  Last 4 years have been about the same.  Not over the hill like some goalies.  

More miles left than MAF.  You think it would be unreasonable to suggest that he has another 4 years of really good tending left?

 

As far as defense goes.....

• Brodie and Gio are (so far, knock on wood) healthy to start the season.
• Hamilton looked much better in the 2nd half.
• Unsustainable defensive system will be replaced.
• Russell is gone.
• Wideman will either be performing better or ride the pine (I can only hope).
• Yokipakka looks like he could be a reasonable #4D.
• I doubt you see Smid play another regular season game here.

So, it won't just be a better goalie coming in, it will be a combo of things.  You can't win the cup without really good goaltending.  By the same toiken, you can't win the cup with just great goaltending.  A great goalie can make an average defense look good, but you still need to score.

 

So, we upgraded the defense by parting with Russell.  Improving the bottom pairing is another thing to tackle.  We upgraded the starter and backup.  We added a good player that will help create space.  We will be changing from a defensive system that relied on blocking shots.

 

At least now we have the luxury of developing Gillies as long as he needs.  Have some backup plans in MacDonald and Parsons. We don't need to bring Gillies in next season as a backup.  

[conundrumed]

hmmm  

 

Speaking of opinion...

 

All I know, is that the Flames did zero to upgrade their D.   And their D was, imho, below average.  Without question, it was not Stanley Cup D.

 

Anything is possible, but the Flames brought in an upgrade on G, without the other necessary positional upgrades.

 

If you're saying Elliot could win a cup...I agree.  I would even to so far as to say you're under-selling him.  He's much more than competent.

 

But win a cup on his own?  Not gonna happen.    And he is already on latter half of his prime.   Had they developed someone younger who would be around for future improvements on D, then that someone could potentially contribute to a cup run.

 

So yes, the Flames upgraded G.   But as a temporary measure.  Again.

Gio was trying to come back from LTIR, Brodie was injured to start, Hamilton was just traded for the 1st time in his life.

Dude, here's the improvements:

Giordano is healthy and in perennial Norris-challenging form.

Brodie is healthy and definitely one of the most exciting Dmen in the league.

Hamilton will define his role as a Top 2-3 guy.

 

If Wideman plays a 30-40 point season? I don't see where upgrades on D mean much.

Upgrade on Joki, Engelland, Wothers etc?

I really don't think our D requires repair like the forward spots do.

[robrob74]

If Wideman is still here this is how I'd do the D pairings:

 

Brodie, Hamilton

Giordano, Wideman

Yokkipakka, Engelland

Wotherspoon, Nakladal (Hoping)

 

I'd only do that because playing Widman on the 3rd line with Engelland is too risky. 

 

The goaltending was a lot better. 
I hope the team D is better. 

 

For me, the goals against will be determined by team play. I think it's what made the goals against horrible last year. The goalies were bad, yes, but I think the team play was just as bad for the first 2/3rds of the season, minus the winning steak. 

 

If the team can play engaging hockey, I think they can do well. But all-in-all, a lot of other teams feel they've improved their rosters. It's going to be the same dog fight it is every year.

[cross16]

 

 

All I know, is that the Flames did zero to upgrade their D.   And their D was, imho, below average.  Without question, it was not Stanley Cup D.

 

 

 

Acutallyl they did arguablly the 2 biggest upgrades they go do with their D, new coach and a new goalie. I know you don't agree with it but that is the biggest improvement you can make. 

 

I'm a huge believer that its a "sum of the parts" philosphy when it comes to D. on paper how impressive in Pittsburgh's D? or how about Chicago's? Chicago has terrible dpeth on D outside their top 3 but because they play so well as a team they can get by, Flames can too. Bigger concern in terms of team defence for me is actually the forwards. Becaue they Flames are so young in their top 6 and IMO below average int heir bottom 6 they ahve alot of gaps whne it comes to playing in their own zone. 

 

They do need to sort some things out in the bottom 3-4 on their defence but I don' think its as critical as their team play and their personnel upfront. 

[travel_dude]

If Wideman is still here this is how I'd do the D pairings:

 

Brodie, Hamilton

Giordano, Wideman

Yokkipakka, Engelland

Wotherspoon, Nakladal (Hoping)

 

I'd only do that because playing Widman on the 3rd line with Engelland is too risky. 

 

The goaltending was a lot better. 

I hope the team D is better. 

 

For me, the goals against will be determined by team play. I think it's what made the goals against horrible last year. The goalies were bad, yes, but I think the team play was just as bad for the first 2/3rds of the season, minus the winning steak. 

 

If the team can play engaging hockey, I think they can do well. But all-in-all, a lot of other teams feel they've improved their rosters. It's going to be the same dog fight it is every year.

 

I don't think Wideman should play with Gio, due to the fact that Gio and Brodie face the best of the other teams.  Offensively, it may make sense to do that for Wideman, but defensively Gio would need to cover for Wideman's lack of defense.  Brodie could possibly do it, but does that make sense?

 

As much as Wideman is due for a bounceback year, he isn't in the long-term plans and he isn't great defensively.  Would it not be better to play him with Wotherspoon on the 3rd pair?  You could alternate Engelland, Spoon and Wideman to form that 3rd pair, and at least you developing a long-term player.  

[robrob74]

I don't think Wideman should play with Gio, due to the fact that Gio and Brodie face the best of the other teams.  Offensively, it may make sense to do that for Wideman, but defensively Gio would need to cover for Wideman's lack of defense.  Brodie could possibly do it, but does that make sense?

 

As much as Wideman is due for a bounceback year, he isn't in the long-term plans and he isn't great defensively.  Would it not be better to play him with Wotherspoon on the 3rd pair?  You could alternate Engelland, Spoon and Wideman to form that 3rd pair, and at least you developing a long-term player.  

 

I totally get what you're saying, but I think that it makes the most sense my way, because Wideman can't play the left side on the 3rd pairing and be good. Engelland can't either. 

I'd love to keep Giordano and Brodie together, but I think it's going to have to be that way as long as we have Wideman. Maybe they can get a trade mid-season if Wideman is doing well.

 

I guess the last part of your comments make sense too.

 

Giordano, Brodie

Yokipakka, Hamilton

Wotherspoon, Wideman/Engelland. 

[travel_dude]

I totally get what you're saying, but I think that it makes the most sense my way, because Wideman can't play the left side on the 3rd pairing and be good. Engelland can't either. 

I'd love to keep Giordano and Brodie together, but I think it's going to have to be that way as long as we have Wideman. Maybe they can get a trade mid-season if Wideman is doing well.

 

I guess the last part of your comments make sense too.

 

Giordano, Brodie

Yokipakka, Hamilton

Wotherspoon, Wideman/Engelland. 

 

Ya, that's sort of what I was alluding to.  You could have the occasional game with Spoon sitting out, or play one forward less.

[jjgallow]

So how long do you figure Elliott can play at this level?  Last 4 years have been about the same.  Not over the hill like some goalies.  

More miles left than MAF.  You think it would be unreasonable to suggest that he has another 4 years of really good tending left?

 

 

To suggest, or bank on it, are two very different things.

 

The Flames are Repeating what they did with Jonas Hiller and expecting a different outcome.

 

You're asking me if it's possible that Elliot is the next Tim Thomas.   Yes it's possible.  Anything is possible.   That doesn't make it a good strategy.

[robrob74]

To suggest, or bank on it, are two very different things.

 

The Flames are Repeating what they did with Jonas Hiller and expecting a different outcome.

 

You're asking me if it's possible that Elliot is the next Tim Thomas.   Yes it's possible.  Anything is possible.   That doesn't make it a good strategy.

 

Really?

 

You're comparing Hiller to Elliot? I don't think it's the same situation at all. 

 

Hiller was coming off a few seasons where he'd lost his job and played substantially less. He had Vertigo and had to work his way back to health. He was barely an NHL goalie anymore.

 

Elliot is coming off a few seasons where he's had some of the best goaltending numbers in the league, yet, maybe not full time, but great numbers indeed.

 

Actually, I just went over the numbers, he's had about 3 or 4 decent years. I think if he can get to his numbers the last few seasons and keep it up by playing an extra 10 games on top of that, we're golden. 

[jjgallow]

Acutallyl they did arguablly the 2 biggest upgrades they go do with their D, new coach and a new goalie. I know you don't agree with it but that is the biggest improvement you can make. 

 

I'm a huge believer that its a "sum of the parts" philosphy when it comes to D. on paper how impressive in Pittsburgh's D? or how about Chicago's? Chicago has terrible dpeth on D outside their top 3 but because they play so well as a team they can get by, Flames can too. Bigger concern in terms of team defence for me is actually the forwards. Becaue they Flames are so young in their top 6 and IMO below average int heir bottom 6 they ahve alot of gaps whne it comes to playing in their own zone. 

 

They do need to sort some things out in the bottom 3-4 on their defence but I don' think its as critical as their team play and their personnel upfront. 

 

Obviously the coach and the G are important for team defence, but D is D.  It's the nuts and bolts of it, sorry.

 

The Flames had the Worst goals against in the league and they:

 

1.  Did Nothing to upgrade their D

2.  Hired a coach who is known to be offensively slanted.

 

Elliot will probably hide a lot of this.    On a team that had a defensively responsible coach, and a top D core, he could be a cup winner right now.

 

Instead, he will mask the problem.  Make it even less likely that it'll ever get addressed.   Much like Kipper did at the same age.  Hiller too.

 

You will see Elliot come in strong, and then you will see his stats decline, just as Kipper's did, just as Jonas Hiller's did, just as Ramo's did.   And the cycle will repeat until the Flames finally figure it out one day.

 

It's a waste, imho.  An upgrade, yes.  But a poorly thought out one, and a sadly predictable one.

[travel_dude]

To suggest, or bank on it, are two very different things.

 

The Flames are Repeating what they did with Jonas Hiller and expecting a different outcome.

 

You're asking me if it's possible that Elliot is the next Tim Thomas.   Yes it's possible.  Anything is possible.   That doesn't make it a good strategy.

 

Hey, we could have traded for Andersson (he's injured now) and been closer to your ideal age.  Anaheim had a say in that deal though.  Pittsburg wasn't going to trade Murray and TBL wasn't going to trade Vasilevskiy.  We could opt to bring in these young studs that you keep alluding to and wait for them to become stars.  Or we could bring in a quality player.

 

Even when you are happy, you aren't happy because we haven't met your specs.  Irving and Ortio are busts.  Maybe they would have become something elsewhere or in different circumstances on the Flames.  But they didn't.  Elliott developed into a good goalie over the years and now we have him.  Hiller was the 3rd goalie on a team and lost his spot due to his declining play.  He managed a good start in his first year here, but he was never going to be the guy.    

[Flyerfan52]

 

 

 Elliott developed into a good goalie over the years and now we have him. 

A good goalie as backup or the "1b" in a 1a/1b situation. Thinking he'll be a great starter for the next 4 years is saying you hope he can but even in those last 4 years his #s have a lot of variation

 

He's a good 1 to have around but I'm not really excited to see him carry full starter games/minutes. Unless the possible extention talks are about are about adding a few more years to what he's currently signed for I hope BT waits to see how he plays for the Flaming "C".

[cccsberg]

To suggest, or bank on it, are two very different things.

 

The Flames are Repeating what they did with Jonas Hiller and expecting a different outcome.

 

You're asking me if it's possible that Elliot is the next Tim Thomas.   Yes it's possible.  Anything is possible.   That doesn't make it a good strategy.

With multiple good goalie prospects that are going to be ready or on the verge within a year or two, there is no way Elliot gets 4 years after this one.  Three maybe assuming he comes through strong.

 

As compared to Hiller, I don't think Hiller EVER was as good as Elliot, so its a weak comparable in any sense.

[cccsberg]

Obviously the coach and the G are important for team defence, but D is D.  It's the nuts and bolts of it, sorry.

 

The Flames had the Worst goals against in the league and they:

 

1.  Did Nothing to upgrade their D

2.  Hired a coach who is known to be offensively slanted.

 

Elliot will probably hide a lot of this.    On a team that had a defensively responsible coach, and a top D core, he could be a cup winner right now.

 

Instead, he will mask the problem.  Make it even less likely that it'll ever get addressed.   Much like Kipper did at the same age.  Hiller too.

 

You will see Elliot come in strong, and then you will see his stats decline, just as Kipper's did, just as Jonas Hiller's did, just as Ramo's did.   And the cycle will repeat until the Flames finally figure it out one day.

 

It's a waste, imho.  An upgrade, yes.  But a poorly thought out one, and a sadly predictable one.

Need to stop drinking, bud (or whatever it is you are using).  

 

Coach1-worked with and taught D, Coach2-PK specialist, "Elliot would ...have a Cup?"-Hitchcock and the Blues?  Flames basically same D last two years(-Hamilton)-vastly different results(hmmmm?), Hamilton showed drastic improvement throughout the season last year,  Kipper's/Hiller's/Ramo's "decline" solely due to terrible D?

 

Right.............

[jjgallow]

Need to stop drinking, bud (or whatever it is you are using).  

 

Coach1-worked with and taught D, Coach2-PK specialist, "Elliot would ...have a Cup?"-Hitchcock and the Blues?  Flames basically same D last two years(-Hamilton)-vastly different results(hmmmm?), Hamilton showed drastic improvement throughout the season last year,  Kipper's/Hiller's/Ramo's "decline" solely due to terrible D?

 

Right.............

 

I can't actually read the middle paragraph, speaking of drinking.

 

Put it this way.

 

Most teams, after getting more goals scored on them than anyone else in the league....   upgrade their defencemen in Some way (unless they're trying to tank).

 

Getting more goals scored on us than any team in the league, and making no upgrades to our defencemen, is a new strategy in the NHL.

 

We will see how that plays out.

[kehatch]

I can't actually read the middle paragraph, speaking of drinking.

Put it this way.

Most teams, after getting more goals scored on them than anyone else in the league.... upgrade their defencemen in Some way (unless they're trying to tank).

Getting more goals scored on us than any team in the league, and making no upgrades to our defencemen, is a new strategy in the NHL.

We will see how that plays out.

They have two new goalies, a new coach, and a bunch of young D like Hamilton, Jokipakka, and Wotherspoon thst should be better. They have Wideman who is due a rebound year and some good depth guys. Plus we saw some decent defensive forwards added to the team.

On paper the Flames have one of the better D in the league and it isn't like they didn't make improvements to team D. I think your trying to make grey equal white.

[conundrumed]

I can't actually read the middle paragraph, speaking of drinking.

 

Put it this way.

 

Most teams, after getting more goals scored on them than anyone else in the league....   upgrade their defencemen in Some way (unless they're trying to tank).

 

Getting more goals scored on us than any team in the league, and making no upgrades to our defencemen, is a new strategy in the NHL.

 

We will see how that plays out.

I wonder what would you do to upgrade the D?

I get upgrading Wideman as the #4, but that can't be the sole upgrade you mean, or I'm surmising it isn't.

I'm of the belief it is team D that is giving us grief more than hucking it all on the D corp.

The coaching has puzzled me also, as zone entries are far too easy with the D pretty much never stepping up to create harder entries.

I don't put it down to the bodies we have on D so much, so I'm wondering if you could specify the upgrades you mean. 

[jjgallow]

They have two new goalies, a new coach, and a bunch of young D like Hamilton, Jokipakka, and Wotherspoon thst should be better. They have Wideman who is due a rebound year and some good depth guys. Plus we saw some decent defensive forwards added to the team.

On paper the Flames have one of the better D in the league and it isn't like they didn't make improvements to team D. I think your trying to make grey equal white.

 

You can think that, but you are the one explaining away no upgrades to D after getting more goals scored on us than any team in the league.   I would discuss your points, but I feel, I would be getting into the grey if I did (honestly I do).

[jjgallow]

I wonder what would you do to upgrade the D?

I get upgrading Wideman as the #4, but that can't be the sole upgrade you mean, or I'm surmising it isn't.

I'm of the belief it is team D that is giving us grief more than hucking it all on the D corp.

The coaching has puzzled me also, as zone entries are far too easy with the D pretty much never stepping up to create harder entries.

I don't put it down to the bodies we have on D so much, so I'm wondering if you could specify the upgrades you mean. 

 

Wideman is an issue, there's no doubt about it.  You are right there.  And I'm not seeing the rebound year for him.

 

Hamilton needs guidance.  I don't feel he's getting it.  I don't think he got it from Hartley.  I don't think it's a skillset of the new coach either (hoping I'm wrong).   He could be one of the truly elite D in the league, or he could become another wideman.   I was hoping to see them either bring in the right coaching assistant, or a veteran D mentor for him.  I applauded his acquisition.  But if they don't have a development plan for him, they shouldn't have made the trade to be honest.

 

Engelland?  We can't do any better there?

 

I like Jokipakka, but I don't like him enough.  I like him a lot on the Heat.

 

We essentially have two great D.   Brodie and Giordano.

 

Giordano is getting old.   Argue it, start a thread, but he's Still...getting old.

 

That's it.   

 

Wideman, no.    Hamilton?  Loads of potential.   What are the Flames going to do with it?

 

I honestly see the Flames as having two top-four defencemen in the top 4 that belong there.   Brodie and Giordano.

 

 

I would put a plan together for Hamilton, I would get an upgrade on Wideman (preferably younger).   And you would have an ok top 4.  For now.

 

Bottom four, I would almost start over.