Goaltending

[jjgallow]

You must be forgetting a few pre-season games.  He played part of the game against EDM (12 saves, 1 GA), all of the shutout game against the AVS, and the loss to Winnipeg (23 saves, 3 GA).

 

The knock has always been a slow start.  This year after going in cold ten games into the season for his first actual start.  His start in Stockton this season.  Last season in Addy.  He's kind of like Kipper, in that he starts off bad and gets better later.

 

That is the concern.  

 

How was that a slow start???

http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.com/2015/10/1/9437557/calgary-flames-at-winnipeg-jets-recap-ahl-quality-defence-provides-no-help-for-joni-ortio

 

Still had the best performance of the preseason.   Even if he maybe let on goal he wished he'd have back.

 

A slow start was never the concern with Ortio, sorry.  Over and over on here, people felt like he tailed off when given a string of games.  which is funny, became he's never been given an actual string of games until now.    Very little said about him proved to be true, and your comments highlight that.    When actually given a string of games, he's continued, on average, to get better.  No, that was never a concern and it getting better has never been a concern anywhere.   Let alone how strange that arguement sounds when you're trying to argue around the topic of a pre-season shutout.

[travel_dude]

How was that a slow start???

http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.com/2015/10/1/9437557/calgary-flames-at-winnipeg-jets-recap-ahl-quality-defence-provides-no-help-for-joni-ortio

 

Still had the best performance of the preseason.   Even if he maybe let on goal he wished he'd have back.

 

A slow start was never the concern with Ortio, sorry.  Over and over on here, people felt like he tailed off when given a string of games.  which is funny, became he's never been given an actual string of games until now.    Very little said about him proved to be true, and your comments highlight that.    When actually given a string of games, he's continued, on average, to get better.  No, that was never a concern and it getting better has never been a concern anywhere.   Let alone how strange that arguement sounds when you're trying to argue around the topic of a pre-season shutout.

 

If you are going to talk about pre-season, at least get the number of games right.  That was the first paragraph in response to your talking only about the pre-season shutout.

 

What was he like in his first 10 starts in the AHL this year?  Last year?  If you care to, please provide his game starts over the last three seasons in the AHL.  If it proves your point, well that is great.  I take it back about him starting slow.    

[jjgallow]

What was he like in his first 10 starts in the AHL this year?  Last year?  If you care to, please provide his game starts over the last three seasons in the AHL.  If it proves your point, well that is great.  I take it back about him starting slow.    

 

Thanks, that would be appreciated.  Even though I know you will still argue the point deeper and deeper into a dark hole.

 

http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?seasonId=43&id=4090

 

You can nitpick if you want about remembering one pre-season game which didn't actually change the arguement either way, maybe try not missing entire months or years of hockey.   Everyone knows about Orito's struggles this year, and his first 10 AHL starts were really no different than his last 10 AHL starts this year.  He struggled the whole way and frankly was a far better NHL goaltender right from the pre-season until now, than in the AHL.

 

He had One season with a legitimate slow start in his entire career:  last year.  That's it.  

 

The year before, strong start.  http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?seasonId=43&id=4090

 

All his time in SM Liiga, strong starts.

 

He was thrown into the AHL far too early, the equivalent of throwing Mason McDonald in last year.  Nobody cares now.   

 

He does not have that history, never did have that history, and if you read this thread, most people's concerns from last year were that they were afraid he was tailing off.  As it turns out, it was just a ridiculously small sample size of NHL games, as we see now.

[conundrumed]

I think we can shred Ortio 6 ways from Sunday.

But at the end of the day, we've been holding him back from being our starter.

Funny we started the season with 3 goalies. What was the point? Ortio never had a shot.

If we learned anything about the position this year, I hope it's that you can't keep them on a highwire. One bad loss and your out.

We waived Ramo, pretty much based on nothing outside of Gio and Hamilton were painful.

Hopefully next year, we treat the people that play the position with some form of dignity.

They aren't skaters, it's a whole different mindset, stop pretending it's not...

[phoenix66]

well for what it's worth I'll Take Kelly Hrudey's opinion over anybody here.. and he has been quite open about Ortio's abilities.. to paraphrase him even last night , its that he looks very strong and has to be in strong contention to be at least the backup next year . he did say he hasnt proven he can be the starter, but that hes earned the right to compete for it.  He constantly raves about his strong play , and uses the term "impressed' quite a bit . I totally agree.

he also said that before he went Down , Ramo was providing "excellent starting goaltending "..but that his injury was "devastating"

 

He classified the number of wins lost as a direct result of poor goaltending was just slightly more than a dozen..most of those coming in the poor start.

[MAC331]

well for what it's worth I'll Take Kelly Hrudey's opinion over anybody here.. and he has been quite open about Ortio's abilities.. to paraphrase him even last night , its that he looks very strong and has to be in strong contention to be at least the backup next year . he did say he hasnt proven he can be the starter, but that hes earned the right to compete for it.  He constantly raves about his strong play , and uses the term "impressed' quite a bit . I totally agree.

he also said that before he went Down , Ramo was providing "excellent starting goaltending "..but that his injury was "devastating"

 

He classified the number of wins lost as a direct result of poor goaltending was just slightly more than a dozen..most of those coming in the poor start.

I think some people need to quit looking in the rearview mirror on Ortio and put some faith in the development process that he has learned something each experience to advance is game.

[travel_dude]

Thanks, that would be appreciated.  Even though I know you will still argue the point deeper and deeper into a dark hole.

 

http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?seasonId=43&id=4090

 

You can nitpick if you want about remembering one pre-season game which didn't actually change the arguement either way, maybe try not missing entire months or years of hockey.   Everyone knows about Orito's struggles this year, and his first 10 AHL starts were really no different than his last 10 AHL starts this year.  He struggled the whole way and frankly was a far better NHL goaltender right from the pre-season until now, than in the AHL.

 

He had One season with a legitimate slow start in his entire career:  last year.  That's it.  

 

The year before, strong start.  http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?seasonId=43&id=4090

 

All his time in SM Liiga, strong starts.

 

He was thrown into the AHL far too early, the equivalent of throwing Mason McDonald in last year.  Nobody cares now.   

 

He does not have that history, never did have that history, and if you read this thread, most people's concerns from last year were that they were afraid he was tailing off.  As it turns out, it was just a ridiculously small sample size of NHL games, as we see now.

 

13/14 great start.  Last two years, including this year, not good.  NHL start this year - not good.  

 

I think he will be fine as a backup, assuming he can translate this end of season to training camp to whenever he gets his first start next season.  He has Hartley's faith right now, so he has to keep it through those events.

[s4xon]

13/14 great start.  Last two years, including this year, not good.  NHL start this year - not good.  

 

I think he will be fine as a backup, assuming he can translate this end of season to training camp to whenever he gets his first start next season.  He has Hartley's faith right now, so he has to keep it through those events.

 

 

There's two sides to the coin here. Ortio is doing really well as he's had consistent starts and has earned Hartley's favor for the time being.  However, one could argue that he's playing in meaningless games at the end of a season when points don't really count towards the score card.

[kehatch]

Nick Schneider is having a great start in Stockton. Small sample and doesn't mean much. But a good start, especially for an 18 year old making his pro debut.

[jjgallow]

There's two sides to the coin here. Ortio is doing really well as he's had consistent starts and has earned Hartley's favor for the time being.  However, one could argue that he's playing in meaningless games at the end of a season when points don't really count towards the score card.

 

I guess "meaningless" is all relative....It's also Devastating to the Flames' draft position.   A little piece of me dies every time I see Ortio come away with the win.  But goaltending is the priority.

Nick Schneider is having a great start in Stockton. Small sample and doesn't mean much. But a good start, especially for an 18 year old making his pro debut.

 

That IS good news

[tincup1]

Nick Schneider is having a great start in Stockton. Small sample and doesn't mean much. But a good start, especially for an 18 year old making his pro debut.

 

I'm following that as well.  Glad to see the Flames have another decent prospect in goal to go with MacDonald and Gillies.  Good goaltending partly comes from internal competition and we're looking better as far as that goes.

[cross16]

Ok, you can make it sound like you've always seen Ortio as an NHL calibre goalie if you want, but the reality as clearly documented on these threads is that opinion, or "expectation" of yours, and many on here (not singling you out)  is Unbelievably recent.

 

Most had given up on him and saw Europe as his best option.  Many would have prefered to see Poulin called up.

 

So there's not too much to argue about in terms of where he's at.  We're all very close on that.  It was Edmonton.  But, it was a shutout.  Yeah we all know.

 

But instead of pretending this was all foreseen years ago, because that's how smart we are...maybe we could be a little happy for what is turning into a cinderella year for a guy who was Literally as close as you can get to losing that NHL dream.

 

Because, quite honestly, there is a momentum and direction to this.  

 

Here is a Complete list of NHL goalies who are Under 25 years of age, and played 20 or more games this year.

 

Please note that it is an Incredibly short list.   Please note the calibre of player on it.   

 

Please note that Ortio ranks just fine on it.  And is arguably improving the fastest of anyone on it.

 

Untitled.png

 

 

That's not what I am doing at all actually i'm saying let's set our standards a little higher. I get with how bad goaltending has been in Calgary this year that people would drop their standards but I saw what Ortio did against Edmonton as what should be the standard for what you want a goalie to do. That's the type of perfomrance I think you need almost every night for a goalie so forgive me for not getting excited when a player does his job. Obviously the shutout was nice, but the Oilers were, and are, terrible and played a terrible game. If Ortio had stolen the game or make several very good saves I would be excited but as I said he was solid. Solid doesn't get me excited, if thats too high of expecations than fine but those are my expectations. 

 

As i have said multiple times in various threads I am impressed with Ortio's confidence and give him credit for pulling himself back into the conversation. I think his play has been solid, but the level of confidence he has shown is quite impressive. 

[jjgallow]

I'm following that as well.  Glad to see the Flames have another decent prospect in goal to go with MacDonald and Gillies.  Good goaltending partly comes from internal competition and we're looking better as far as that goes.

 

I'm really happy with this Flames signing.  Always liked it.    I really believe this is the way to go with goalies.

 

About 1/2 of the NHL's great goalies were Always great, and drafted high.  

 

Another 1/4 were late round picks.

 

Another 1/4 are Completely undrafted, coming out of Nowhere.   Unlike other positions where drafting accuracy has improved, goaltending has held this undrafted success rate, Consistently, to current day.    That's a Really high success rate for undrafted players.   This is the avenue I believe the Flames should be pursuing (along with the occasional late round pick), and I think they did Very well with Schneider.  And I think he's the Prototypical goalie with hidden potential that could surprise us all:

• Decent NHL size, but not exceptional enough to get noticed in the draft.  
• Playing for the second worst team in the WHL (defensively).  Extremely easy to under-rate, very hard to evaluate.
• Took the job away Hands Down from what should have been an older, better, more experienced goalie (Mack Shields) with a Very good past WHL record with a different team (Calgary Hitmen).  All suggesting Schneider may have made Backstopping the Tigers look much easier than it Actually was.

[travel_dude]

With Calgary Flames goaltending situation at a turning point, Ortio’s time may be coming

 

If there’s one thing for certain, the Calgary Flames goaltending situation will change before next season. Karri Ramo, done for the year with a blown knee, will see his one-year deal expire. The two-year contract of Jonas Hiller, who has been relegated to mostly back-up duties for the latter part of the 2015-16 campaign, is also finished. Niklas Backstrom, a trade deadline day salary absorption (in the David Jones deal), is probably bound overseas. And Joni Ortio, the local heir apparent, is a restricted free agent this summer.

This season, Calgary’s goaltending turned into one of the biggest sources of fan grief, complaints, and hot button topics in this city. As of Sunday afternoon, they still had league-worst goals allowed per game (3.14). They have three remaining games left plus a day of autopsies and player reviews (fondly known as Garbage Bag Day) before they hit the golf courses, beach resorts, and eventually begin training again. But the future is on everyone’s mind.

 

“Like a lot of things, we’re going to get to the end of the year and start to evaluate where we go from here,” said Flames GM Brad Treliving. “Our plan is to get through to the end right now and we’ll get a chance to let the emotions subside and take a deep breath and go from there.” That applies to making a decision on Ortio who, out of the four netminders, is the most logical candidate to remain a Flame next season. “We’re going to see,” Treliving said. “He’s a restricted free agent and needs a new contract. But, like I said, he’s still a young guy. And I like him. I think he’s really competitive and, to me, he’s got a bit of that swagger back in his game. “To me, he’s a confident guy … but we want a chance think clearly here.”

 

Calgary’s sixth-round pick from 2009 was poised for big things this season, his third full year playing pro hockey in North America and second (and final) year of a two-year dal worth an AAV of $600,000. But the Flames started the campaign with an odd three-man system because of one-way contracts and it threw everyone off, including Hiller and Ramo. Ortio only started twice and played four games before he was demoted to the American Hockey League. He was challenged by the Flames’ management when his practise habits and general commitment to developing in the minors were being questioned. To his credit, he improved and earned another recall.

 

In Saturday’s 5-0 win over the Edmonton Oilers — his first shut-out of the year — he was impressive and, in recent outings, he’s looked like an NHL-er again. “That’s how it goes sometimes,” Treliving said of Ortio’s year and battle to stay in the NHL. “You look at the body of work since he’s been back, for the most part he’s been real solid. He’s given us a chance on most nights. There’s a lot of encouraging signs with Joni. “We’ll have to go through the whole de-brief and talk with our staff (regarding next season). But he’s shown really good glimpses.”

In 20 games this season (and 17 starts), he’s gone 6-9-4 and owns a 2.62 goals against average plus a 0.908 save percentage. Sixteen of those games came during his second recall in February. Ortio, who indicated that his agent has “talked” with Calgary (“but nothing major”), wants to be part of the future. “It’s a great spot to play hockey,” he said. “We’ve got great fans, the best in the NHL. It’s a hockey town. I’ve enjoyed my time here. So, that’s where I’m at. I don’t want to get ahead of myself … that’s something we’re going to look at after the season. “But it’s wide open for next year.”

 

 

Just providing this in case you weren't sure how BT feels about the goalie or what Ortio thinks about coming back.  

[cccsberg]

13/14 great start.  Last two years, including this year, not good.  NHL start this year - not good.  

 

I think he will be fine as a backup, assuming he can translate this end of season to training camp to whenever he gets his first start next season.  He has Hartley's faith right now, so he has to keep it through those events.

AS I recall you have the history correct.  Based on his recent play I believe he should be re-signed and given the shot to compete for the starting job this Fall.  His current 0.908 is a compilation of the whole season, he's been better recently.  

[conundrumed]

AS I recall you have the history correct.  Based on his recent play I believe he should be re-signed and given the shot to compete for the starting job this Fall.  His current 0.908 is a compilation of the whole season, he's been better recently.  

Just to back you up, because it deserves thought imho.

Ortio thought he had a shot last camp. He played very well, to extremely well.

He was 3rd in the 3 headed monster.

So BT says, "we didn't like his effort in practice".

So he clears waivers, does meh in the A.

Truth be told, that sounds like a goalie to me.

As far as I'm concerned, if my goalie doesn't feel defeated by that, I don't want him on my team.

Ortio's dealt with it. The seat is wide open.

The meaningless games argument...meh...do you think they're meaningless to Ortio?

For a laugh,

If I'm BH next year and Ortio has a dumb game, just threaten him with bringing in 2 more goalies haha.

I believe Ortio will have a great summer.

[travel_dude]

AS I recall you have the history correct.  Based on his recent play I believe he should be re-signed and given the shot to compete for the starting job this Fall.  His current 0.908 is a compilation of the whole season, he's been better recently.  

 

And all I was getting at was starting strong is imperative, assuming he gets signed as a backup.  Whether that is game 1, 5, 10 or 15, he has to be ready to put forth a string effort.  There is no room for this team to go 3-7 to start the season again.  

[cross16]

I wanted to run some numbers to take a look at this debate of goaltending versus defence. Seems to be the consensus that while most acknowledge the goaltending needs to be improved some still feel like its not worth it unless the defence improves first. So I looked at scoring chances against and high quality scoring chances against 5 on 5 per 60 mins. the Flames are 8th last in scoring changes against and 6th last in high quality scoring chances against, so pretty clear there is improvement needed no disputing that IMO. However, peeling it back.

 

Of the 7th team lower than the Flames in SA/60 the average save percentage was .909. For the 5 teams below them in high quality chances against/60mins the avg was .910. 

 

Even if we just use .909 as the benchmark, which by the way would be good for 20th in the league, the different between  a team save percentage of .909 and .892 equates to a different of 39 goals against (rounded up).  If the Flames gave up 39 less goal this season they jump from 30th in the league to about 17th. So even if the defence gave up the same amount of chanes per game if the Flames had even below avg goaltending they are likely knocking on the playoff door. IMO, if the flames had given up 39 less goals this year that's easily worth 10-12 points in the standings and 10-12 points would put them 3-5 points woud with a game in hand in the wild card race.

 

I want to emphasize that in no way am I saying the d is fine and doesn't need to be improved, that is not the point I am trying to make. Absolutely there are improvement that need to be made. The reason I wanted to look at this is I think this make it pretty clear where the Flames number 1 need lies in the offeason and to me its not even close. I think it also lends alot of support to the argument that with improved goaltending the Flames can easily be a playoff contender next season. I don't agree with this notion that they are not close and are bound to be a lottery pick and IMO this proves that. 

[jefsmi]

ortio will get signed; thats a no brainer, 2 year deal probably for 1 - 1.25 per. The real question is who do we bring in as the starter. Anderson needs to be at the top of the list; bishop number 2. dont mind elliot but he gets injured every season; Darling would be the dark horse but is he ready for number 1 minutes i dont think so.

 

[DirtyDeeds]

I wanted to run some numbers to take a look at this debate of goaltending versus defence. Seems to be the consensus that while most acknowledge the goaltending needs to be improved some still feel like its not worth it unless the defence improves first. So I looked at scoring chances against and high quality scoring chances against 5 on 5 per 60 mins. the Flames are 8th last in scoring changes against and 6th last in high quality scoring chances against, so pretty clear there is improvement needed no disputing that IMO. However, peeling it back.

 

Of the 7th team lower than the Flames in SA/60 the average save percentage was .909. For the 5 teams below them in high quality chances against/60mins the avg was .910. 

 

Even if we just use .909 as the benchmark, which by the way would be good for 20th in the league, the different between  a team save percentage of .909 and .892 equates to a different of 39 goals against (rounded up).  If the Flames gave up 39 less goal this season they jump from 30th in the league to about 17th. So even if the defence gave up the same amount of chanes per game if the Flames had even below avg goaltending they are likely knocking on the playoff door. IMO, if the flames had given up 39 less goals this year that's easily worth 10-12 points in the standings and 10-12 points would put them 3-5 points woud with a game in hand in the wild card race.

 

I want to emphasize that in no way am I saying the d is fine and doesn't need to be improved, that is not the point I am trying to make. Absolutely there are improvement that need to be made. The reason I wanted to look at this is I think this make it pretty clear where the Flames number 1 need lies in the offeason and to me its not even close. I think it also lends alot of support to the argument that with improved goaltending the Flames can easily be a playoff contender next season. I don't agree with this notion that they are not close and are bound to be a lottery pick and IMO this proves that. 

Nice to see some data that confirms what a bunch of us have been saying.

 

As for the with just league average goaltending part, I will just add I would prefer a bit better than "League Average" goaltending. I'd be willing to give up some assets to get it too. Not sell the farm.

[jjgallow]

I wanted to run some numbers to take a look at this debate of goaltending versus defence. Seems to be the consensus that while most acknowledge the goaltending needs to be improved some still feel like its not worth it unless the defence improves first. So I looked at scoring chances against and high quality scoring chances against 5 on 5 per 60 mins. the Flames are 8th last in scoring changes against and 6th last in high quality scoring chances against, so pretty clear there is improvement needed no disputing that IMO. However, peeling it back.

 

Of the 7th team lower than the Flames in SA/60 the average save percentage was .909. For the 5 teams below them in high quality chances against/60mins the avg was .910. 

 

Even if we just use .909 as the benchmark, which by the way would be good for 20th in the league, the different between  a team save percentage of .909 and .892 equates to a different of 39 goals against (rounded up).  If the Flames gave up 39 less goal this season they jump from 30th in the league to about 17th. So even if the defence gave up the same amount of chanes per game if the Flames had even below avg goaltending they are likely knocking on the playoff door. IMO, if the flames had given up 39 less goals this year that's easily worth 10-12 points in the standings and 10-12 points would put them 3-5 points woud with a game in hand in the wild card race.

 

I want to emphasize that in no way am I saying the d is fine and doesn't need to be improved, that is not the point I am trying to make. Absolutely there are improvement that need to be made. The reason I wanted to look at this is I think this make it pretty clear where the Flames number 1 need lies in the offeason and to me its not even close. I think it also lends alot of support to the argument that with improved goaltending the Flames can easily be a playoff contender next season. I don't agree with this notion that they are not close and are bound to be a lottery pick and IMO this proves that. 

 

Thanks for doing this cross.  While I don't actually agree with All of the conclusion, I do really appreciate bringing actual numbers into the conversation.

 

No question, goaltending was our biggest issue this season in terms of:  

• Weakness
• Rebuild priority

I'm not disputing that.    Just to be clear.

 

I think the debate is more around addressing it.   Do we fix it by bringing someone in, or do we develop it in-house?    My perspective on this, is that the best Long term solution is to Build goaltending in-house through development.   From what we've already seen from Ortio, it's becoming clear that it would cost a Lot to bring in something Better than he's already providing.  And they would likely be older, and slow down Ortio's development as well as the developmet of other goalies in our system.   I think you need to build a system around your goaltenders and that's why I don't want short term solutions.  Also, I don't think this stops at Ortio.  Obviously Gillies and potentially others are a Huge part of the conversation as well.

 

There is also a debate about Defense, which borders on off-topic.   But as you've pointed out, it needs improvement.  Also, some of our best defense right now is coming from veterans who are nearing the end of their prime.   Offensively, Hamilton is top 4 now, for instance.  Defensively, he is Still a big project.   

 

I'm not trying to say that the defense is more important.  I'm trying to say that I believe we have hope in our goaltending prospects, and deveoping them should be a priority.  I believe they are Already at a stage to get us into the playoffs, while Also developing them to be even better.     Defense, on the other hand, requires more than development, imho.  It requires development, and probably one more young elite asset.    So that's why I suggest bringing in a D over a G.    It's not the priority, it's the X's and the O's.

[cross16]

Nice to see some data that confirms what a bunch of us have been saying.

 

As for the with just league average goaltending part, I will just add I would prefer a bit better than "League Average" goaltending. I'd be willing to give up some assets to get it too. Not sell the farm.

 

Completely agree.

 

The reason I stuck with league average or even below leage average goalie numbers is because I think it emphasizes the point i'm trying to make. The flames don't even need to drastically improve their goaltending to become a playoff team. Anything more than that just looks better and better the higher you go. 

[Flyerfan52]

Thanks for doing this cross.  While I don't actually agree with All of the conclusion, I do really appreciate bringing actual numbers into the conversation.

 

No question, goaltending was our biggest issue this season in terms of:  

• Weakness
• Rebuild priority

I'm not disputing that.    Just to be clear.

 

I think the debate is more around addressing it.   Do we fix it by bringing someone in, or do we develop it in-house?    My perspective on this, is that the best Long term solution is to Build goaltending in-house through development.   From what we've already seen from Ortio, it's becoming clear that it would cost a Lot to bring in something Better than he's already providing.  And they would likely be older, and slow down Ortio's development as well as the developmet of other goalies in our system.   I think you need to build a system around your goaltenders and that's why I don't want short term solutions.  Also, I don't think this stops at Ortio.  Obviously Gillies and potentially others are a Huge part of the conversation as well.

 

There is also a debate about Defense, which borders on off-topic.   But as you've pointed out, it needs improvement.  Also, some of our best defense right now is coming from veterans who are nearing the end of their prime.   Offensively, Hamilton is top 4 now, for instance.  Defensively, he is Still a big project.   

 

I'm not trying to say that the defense is more important.  I'm trying to say that I believe we have hope in our goaltending prospects, and deveoping them should be a priority.  I believe they are Already at a stage to get us into the playoffs, while Also developing them to be even better.     Defense, on the other hand, requires more than development, imho.  It requires development, and probably one more young elite asset.    So that's why I suggest bringing in a D over a G.    It's not the priority, it's the X's and the O's.

Goalies are hardest to develop.

Either they come in great like a Dryden or take years.

Ortio trended upwards in meaningless games. How does seeing how he does in games that mean something early next season sound? You know, rather than anointing him our savior between the pipes.

[kehatch]

Thanks for doing this cross. While I don't actually agree with All of the conclusion, I do really appreciate bringing actual numbers into the conversation.

No question, goaltending was our biggest issue this season in terms of:

• Weakness
• Rebuild priority

I'm not disputing that. Just to be clear.

I think the debate is more around addressing it. Do we fix it by bringing someone in, or do we develop it in-house? My perspective on this, is that the best Long term solution is to Build goaltending in-house through development. From what we've already seen from Ortio, it's becoming clear that it would cost a Lot to bring in something Better than he's already providing. And they would likely be older, and slow down Ortio's development as well as the developmet of other goalies in our system. I think you need to build a system around your goaltenders and that's why I don't want short term solutions. Also, I don't think this stops at Ortio. Obviously Gillies and potentially others are a Huge part of the conversation as well.

There is also a debate about Defense, which borders on off-topic. But as you've pointed out, it needs improvement. Also, some of our best defense right now is coming from veterans who are nearing the end of their prime. Offensively, Hamilton is top 4 now, for instance. Defensively, he is Still a big project.

I'm not trying to say that the defense is more important. I'm trying to say that I believe we have hope in our goaltending prospects, and deveoping them should be a priority. I believe they are Already at a stage to get us into the playoffs, while Also developing them to be even better. Defense, on the other hand, requires more than development, imho. It requires development, and probably one more young elite asset. So that's why I suggest bringing in a D over a G. It's not the priority, it's the X's and the O's.

Ortio has fewer then 40 NHL games played and none of the other prospects are ready. No other goalies are signed. On D we have Brodie, Giordano, and Hamilton signed long term. Clearly we need a goalie more then we need a D.

I don't agree with your conclusion that poor team defence this season = Flames need at least one more elite defensive prospect. That math doesn't add up in my opinion. But even if I did agree with that it doesn't change the reality of our situation in goal going into next season. I don't understand this idea that we fix one thing a season. I also don't agree that getting a goalie necessarily is cost prohibitive or that getting another goalie blocks our opportunity to develop a goalie internally.

[travel_dude]

Ortio has fewer then 40 NHL games played and none of the other prospects are ready. No other goalies are signed. On D we have Brodie, Giordano, and Hamilton signed long term. Clearly we need a goalie more then we need a D.

I don't agree with your conclusion that poor team defence this season = Flames need at least one more elite defensive prospect. That math doesn't add up in my opinion. But even if I did agree with that it doesn't change the reality of our situation in goal going into next season. I don't understand this idea that we fix one thing a season. I also don't agree that getting a goalie necessarily is cost prohibitive or that getting another goalie blocks our opportunity to develop a goalie internally.

 

Available to the Flames next year are:

Gillies

McDonald

 

RFA's

Poulin

Ortio

 

Schneider is too young for the AHL, so he goes back to junior.

Even if we were to sign Poulin, we still have Stockton and the ECHL to develop goalies.  So, I also can't see anything blocking development of goalies.  So, we could have the following:

 

NHL - Starter/Ortio

AHL - Gillies/Poulin

ECHL - McDonald

 

Alternatively, you don't have to sign Poulin, so you have Gillies and McDonald in the AHL.