Goaltending

[conundrumed]

Doing so requires that you show confidence in both, not just the guy winning or playing well.  Hiller got his chance after Ramo was brutalized by bad bounces.  You want Ramo to get cold?  Sit him out until he is needed.

That's how they tandemed last year though, how cold do you think Hiller was? We need both of them playing well, Hiller needed some games. I'm just really happy he didn't lose us games. The team in front of him has responded well, also.

[travel_dude]

That's how they tandemed last year though, how cold do you think Hiller was? We need both of them playing well, Hiller needed some games. I'm just really happy he didn't lose us games. The team in front of him has responded well, also.

 

I don't think you can compare last season to this season.  Hiller had one good game and one ok game where he was tested.  Prior to that he played sick where he fell apart, but still got the wins.  

 

This season, Ramo took over as starter.  Last year it was Hiller.  I would expect that you show confidence in the guy that got you there, not just forgetting about him after somebody has a good game or two.

[cross16]

Not exactly Flames news but one that could relate. Oilers signed Cam Talbot to a 3 year deal worth 12.5 million or a 4.17 Million cap hit.

 

Gives you a good indication of what Ramo could/should get should he wind up being the Flames starter. He'll have more NHL stats than Talbot did.

 

Edit: Not to mention removes one of the few potential options that was available. As it stands now outside of maybe James Reimer, Kari Ramo is probably the best FA option in the nets come the offseason. The rest of the UFA crop is aging vets who are playing poorly (Cam Ward) and a bunch of backups that maybe have potential but are high risks to give a starting job to (Stalock, Khudobin,Chad Johnson, Raanta, Enoth etc). 

[robrob1974]

Not exactly Flames news but one that could relate. Oilers signed Cam Talbot to a 3 year deal worth 12.5 million or a 4.17 Million cap hit.

Gives you a good indication of what Ramo could/should get should he wind up being the Flames starter. He'll have more NHL stats than Talbot did.

It's exactly what I was thinking and it kind of scared me.

[MAC331]

It's exactly what I was thinking and it kind of scared me.

They love to over pay on limited success, don't they.

[xstrike]

They love to over pay on limited success, don't they.

I suppose they have to pay high in order to lure people to the organization. In the hunt for yet another #1 pick.

 

Really, I'm not sure how some of their older #1 OA players muster up the energy to play anymore. 

Eberle: 6-7 years of being stuck on an awful team.

Hall: 5 years of being stuck on an awful team.

RNH: 4 years of being stuck on an awful team.

Yakupov: 3 years of being stuck on an awful team.

[MAC331]

I suppose they have to pay high in order to lure people to the organization. In the hunt for yet another #1 pick.

 

Really, I'm not sure how some of their older #1 OA players muster up the energy to play anymore. 

Eberle: 6-7 years of being stuck on an awful team.

Hall: 5 years of being stuck on an awful team.

RNH: 4 years of being stuck on an awful team.

Yakupov: 3 years of being stuck on an awful team.

This is a prime example of why an organization should not rush to pay "potential" prospects huge money. I would say all 4 of these players have been failures while panning out to be average NHLers. They should trade at least two of them and get some decent defensemen.

[robrob1974]

This is a prime example of why an organization should not rush to pay "potential" prospects huge money. I would say all 4 of these players have been failures while panning out to be average NHLers. They should trade at least two of them and get some decent defensemen.

Do we know exactly what we have in Monahan and Gaudreau? How do they compare to Taylor Hall? We know we have potential. The upside looks great! We also see them getting shut down now that the games are getting harder. Although they will go on other streaks this year.

But I wonder if we are going to make the same mistake of overpaying out of an entry-level contract. Johnny is dynamic. Monahan is a two way C. I think they're worth at least 6M but I also worry about overpaying.

You say the oiler guys are average, so I just wonder how ours compare.

[MAC331]

Do we know exactly what we have in Monahan and Gaudreau? How do they compare to Taylor Hall? We know we have potential. The upside looks great! We also see them getting shut down now that the games are getting harder. Although they will go on other streaks this year.

But I wonder if we are going to make the same mistake of overpaying out of an entry-level contract. Johnny is dynamic. Monahan is a two way C. I think they're worth at least 6M but I also worry about overpaying.

You say the oiler guys are average, so I just wonder how ours compare.

I for one don't agree in handing Gaudreau or Monahan 7M and 6M respectively next season. I would be more inclined to start at 4.5M and have an excelerating schedule but I understand the arguments using market compariables.

[travel_dude]

I for one don't agree in handing Gaudreau or Monahan 7M and 6M respectively next season. I would be more inclined to start at 4.5M and have an excelerating schedule but I understand the arguments using market compariables.

 

I understand your concern, but they are the franchise players on this team, adding Brodie to that list. They are in on about 50% of the scoring on this team.  How do you really expect to pay them $4.5m a year, increasing each year and have them agree to it?  Monahan's body of work is 2.5 years and is producing at a #1C level.  Johnny is scoring at a 1 p/gp pace and should hit 40 goals.

Are you saying that you temper that by saying they haven't done enough yet and bridge them until they are worth $8m+?

 

This is likely the one chance we get to lock them up and buy FA years.  Sure, you can use bonus money as part of the deal, but that just means their last years are really expensive.  Signing them to a flat deal doesn't set them up to get the ROR next deal.  ROR's offer sheet set him up to be a $7m player.

[AlbertaBoy12]

I understand your concern, but they are the franchise players on this team, adding Brodie to that list. They are in on about 50% of the scoring on this team.  How do you really expect to pay them $4.5m a year, increasing each year and have them agree to it?  Monahan's body of work is 2.5 years and is producing at a #1C level.  Johnny is scoring at a 1 p/gp pace and should hit 40 goals.

Are you saying that you temper that by saying they haven't done enough yet and bridge them until they are worth $8m+?

 

This is likely the one chance we get to lock them up and buy FA years.  Sure, you can use bonus money as part of the deal, but that just means their last years are really expensive.  Signing them to a flat deal doesn't set them up to get the ROR next deal.  ROR's offer sheet set him up to be a $7m player.

I dont think RFAs have as much negotiating ability as you seem to be putting out there. They can basically say they wont sign then they wont play, or they can have their agent try and get an offer sheet. I dont think we should low ball them by millions of dollars, but I think looking at the rest of young talent on this team and the captains deal, I dont think they will get signed to ridiculous contracts. I would say 5.5 million being the low end to 6.5 million being the high end, but im leaning more towards maybe matching 8 year deals at a 6 million aav. 

[MAC331]

I understand your concern, but they are the franchise players on this team, adding Brodie to that list. They are in on about 50% of the scoring on this team.  How do you really expect to pay them $4.5m a year, increasing each year and have them agree to it?  Monahan's body of work is 2.5 years and is producing at a #1C level.  Johnny is scoring at a 1 p/gp pace and should hit 40 goals.

Are you saying that you temper that by saying they haven't done enough yet and bridge them until they are worth $8m+?

 

This is likely the one chance we get to lock them up and buy FA years.  Sure, you can use bonus money as part of the deal, but that just means their last years are really expensive.  Signing them to a flat deal doesn't set them up to get the ROR next deal.  ROR's offer sheet set him up to be a $7m player.

It is just me, I'm cheap. LOL

I understand they are some of the key cogs but as you mention Brodie, look what he accepted. In a rebuild there are any number of players that are going to contribute to making this team successful in the long run. It doesn't matter what I think, the will get paid and soon.

[travel_dude]

It is just me, I'm cheap. LOL

I understand they are some of the key cogs but as you mention Brodie, look what he accepted. In a rebuild there are any number of players that are going to contribute to making this team successful in the long run. It doesn't matter what I think, the will get paid and soon.

 

The Brodie deal was a mistake and the Flames will pay double for it.  They could have locked him up for UFA years, but chose the bridge deal, which was the typical strategy for younger D-men.  

[AlbertaBoy12]

The Brodie deal was a mistake and the Flames will pay double for it.  They could have locked him up for UFA years, but chose the bridge deal, which was the typical strategy for younger D-men.  

I wouldnt really consider a 6 year deal a bridge deal, but the flames will pay based on what brodie will be in 2020, vice what 2021 if they gave him an extra year or two?

[kehatch]

The Brodie deal was a mistake and the Flames will pay double for it. They could have locked him up for UFA years, but chose the bridge deal, which was the typical strategy for younger D-men.

The Brodie deal wasn't a mistake. It isn't a bridge deal either. It's a great deal for the Flames.

But Gaudreau and Monahan are not in the same situation as Brodie. They are playing a very high level game right now.

[rickross]

Mentioned in another thread I think it was a mistake trading for an aging D man in Smid while giving Laurent Brossoit up. Smid is a regular healthy scratch and is likely on his way out anyway. We have some interesting prospect in Ortio, Gillies and Macdonald but their still a few years away. It would be nice to develop our goalies internally as opposed to the more costly option of trade or free agency. Once we find our true Kipper replacement then this defense can start to play to its potential

[kehatch]

There wasn't room for Brossoit and I can't see us getting a bunch for him at the time we traded him.

I am still not a big Brossoit fan though.

[rickross]

He's outplayed Ortio the last couple of years. I know at the time Brossoit was the expendable goalie in our pool, maybe they thought Kipper would have stuck around 1-2 more years at the time. Still think Flames should approach this rebuild from the back end, our number #1 priority should be #1 goalie as hard as they are to come by.

[travel_dude]

The Brodie deal wasn't a mistake. It isn't a bridge deal either. It's a great deal for the Flames.

But Gaudreau and Monahan are not in the same situation as Brodie. They are playing a very high level game right now.

 

Mistake as in you could have signed him for longer.  No reason to think he won't be our #1D for years to come.  Otherwise, an awesome deal for the Flames.  He goes to UFA when his deal expires.

[kehatch]

Mistake as in you could have signed him for longer. No reason to think he won't be our #1D for years to come. Otherwise, an awesome deal for the Flames. He goes to UFA when his deal expires.

Sure. But it was still a long term deal. Unlikely the player would go for longer since he was still developing. Can't find any reason to dislike that deal.

[travel_dude]

Sure. But it was still a long term deal. Unlikely the player would go for longer since he was still developing. Can't find any reason to dislike that deal.

Thought it was 4 years, actually 5 years.  Only thing wrong was not getting 8 years.  Term is fine and $$ are a steal, just wish we could have gone longer.

[rickross]

I'm fine with the Brodie deal, it's actually a steal at this point. Between Hamilton and Brodie that's a great young defensive core, lots of teams envy that kind of defensive depth. Once Rasmus, Kylington and Hickey are ready we will have a very dynamic group of great skating and passing D men..all of whom will likely still be under 25 with the exception to Brodie

[conundrumed]

Thought it was 4 years, actually 5 years.  Only thing wrong was not getting 8 years.  Term is fine and $$ are a steal, just wish we could have gone longer.

It's 5 yrs after this one. Hard to knock it for a 6 yr, 8 yr $ amount goes up.

I don't know how you argue it wasn't a great deal for us.

Sometimes you just have to admit you made a mistake...

[kehatch]

He's outplayed Ortio the last couple of years. I know at the time Brossoit was the expendable goalie in our pool, maybe they thought Kipper would have stuck around 1-2 more years at the time. Still think Flames should approach this rebuild from the back end, our number #1 priority should be #1 goalie as hard as they are to come by.

I think it was as simple as they had room for one goalie in the AHL and chose Ortio over Brossoit. At the time Brossoit was playing in the ECHL.

Smid was a top 4 D at the time (barely) and the Flames really needed to add some size. He also had the attitude you wanted to build a culture around.

Age and injury have slowed him down and now he is just a bad contract. Meanwhile Brossoit is looking decent in the AHL. So I get why some don't like the deal in retrospect.

But at the time this was the right deal for the Flames. I try not to love a move on the day off and hate it years later. Would I take Brossoit over Smid today? Sure. But I liked the deal when it was made.

[robrob1974]

I think it was as simple as they had room for one goalie in the AHL and chose Ortio over Brossoit. At the time Brossoit was playing in the ECHL.

Smid was a top 4 D at the time (barely) and the Flames really needed to add some size. He also had the attitude you wanted to build a culture around.

Age and injury have slowed him down and now he is just a bad contract. Meanwhile Brossoit is looking decent in the AHL. So I get why some don't like the deal in retrospect.

But at the time this was the right deal for the Flames. I try not to love a move on the day off and hate it years later. Would I take Brossoit over Smid today? Sure. But I liked the deal when it was made.

 

I remember the day I heard about the deal. I remember thinking, "Eeeeeeeesh, this might come back to haunt the Flames in the long run..." But then, I didn't know much about Smid at the time. All I could say to myself was, alright...