Goaltending

[cross16]

Fair enough.  But actually, I was pointing out some recent Good play of Ortio, and this drew criticism.  Like it was a paradox.

 

It's almost like we just expect to fail at developing goaltenders.

 

Since when does blaming prospects get you anywhere?

 

How many times in a row to we focus on the prospect, drafted, and developed, by this organization, and look at it as an individual issue, when the outcome is the same with Every single individual put into that situation?

 

 

Its not a one or the other scenario though. You imply that the Flames have drafted or brought in some really good goalies and then failed to develop them and others are countering by saying its difficult and you ahve to look at the individual propsects too. Both are right, but you don't come across that way.

 

LIke others have said, you make it seem really easy to develop a goalie but the reality is most organizations struggle with this. Who has Anaheim ever brought along and developed? Gibson is really the only one and its too early to say they've "succeed" there.What about Arizona/Phoenix? Colorado? Columbus? Dallas? Minnisota? Islanders? Philly? St Louis? Tampa Bay?

 

I don't dispute the notion that the Flames need to be better at developing goalies and actually I would say they need to get better at development period. But having said that, just about every team in the NHL does so don't act like this is primarily a Flames issues. Goalies are just really, really tough to develop. 

[MAC331]

Its not a one or the other scenario though. You imply that the Flames have drafted or brought in some really good goalies and then failed to develop them and others are countering by saying its difficult and you ahve to look at the individual propsects too. Both are right, but you don't come across that way.

 

LIke others have said, you make it seem really easy to develop a goalie but the reality is most organizations struggle with this. Who has Anaheim ever brought along and developed? Gibson is really the only one and its too early to say they've "succeed" there.What about Arizona/Phoenix? Colorado? Columbus? Dallas? Minnisota? Islanders? Philly? St Louis? Tampa Bay?

 

I don't dispute the notion that the Flames need to be better at developing goalies and actually I would say they need to get better at development period. But having said that, just about every team in the NHL does so don't act like this is primarily a Flames issues. Goalies are just really, really tough to develop. 

I'm not real familiar with the ones we have in the pipeline however by all accounts Gilles and McDonald have good credentials. Ortio when he was healthy and played that one stretch here looked to have some good talents. Ramo is playing better now that the entire defense is playing much better together. It doesn't appear we are in desperate shape in the goaltending department.

[jjgallow]

Its not a one or the other scenario though. You imply that the Flames have drafted or brought in some really good goalies and then failed to develop them and others are countering by saying its difficult and you ahve to look at the individual propsects too. Both are right, but you don't come across that way.

 

LIke others have said, you make it seem really easy to develop a goalie but the reality is most organizations struggle with this. Who has Anaheim ever brought along and developed? Gibson is really the only one and its too early to say they've "succeed" there.What about Arizona/Phoenix? Colorado? Columbus? Dallas? Minnisota? Islanders? Philly? St Louis? Tampa Bay?

 

I don't dispute the notion that the Flames need to be better at developing goalies and actually I would say they need to get better at development period. But having said that, just about every team in the NHL does so don't act like this is primarily a Flames issues. Goalies are just really, really tough to develop. 

 

Agreed....and winning the Stanley Cup is also Really, really hard.  Does that mean we shouldn't have our eyes on this as fans?

 

 

You asked a lot of questions about a lot of teams, I'll just answer on Anaheim.

 

J.S. Giguere.  

 

Giguere had exactly One good season in the AHL (under the Flames).   Two years later in the AHL, he was really struggling and below .900.     Who does that remind us of now?

 

So, just like some have suggested on here for Ortio, the Flames gave up on him, and Anaheim worked with him to get his numbers above .900.   Then, they brought him to the NHL level, where he was NOT very good in his first year. 

 

Despite some questionable goaltending Especially at first, Anaheim worked with him at the NHL level and gave him 34 games, where they saw gradual improvement.   For the Flames to do that, seems like an impossible concept somehow.  It would be very much like calling up Ortio, giving him 15 games, getting mixed results, and giving him another 15.

 

The rest is history.  He has a Stanley cup now.  We don't.

 

I could go on.  

[cross16]

Please do, becuase so far everytime you want to bring up goaltending you repeat the story about Jiggy. And of cousre you leave out the fact that the Flames didn't exactly give up on him. They traded him becuase they were going to lose him in the expansion draft. He wasn't ready for NHL duty and you could only protect 1 goalie (or 2 goalies but then you could protect less D/F) so they protected Freddy Braithwaite, their starter at time time, and dealt Jiggy rather than lose him for nothing. 

 

You also leave out how you know the Flames took an unkown and unproven 3rd string goalie in SJ but why ignore something that doens't support your point right?

 

And again no one is disputing the Flames can get better nor have I read very many places that say Ortio is done or a right off. People are questioning his upside but not one is saying he is done as a goalie jsut that HE needs to be better if he wants to be in the NHL. 

[jjgallow]

Please do, becuase so far everytime you want to bring up goaltending you repeat the story about Jiggy.

 

Actually you did, you specifically asked.  And you forget to bring up the point that they only reason they were going to lose him is because they had no intention of protecting him, because they had given up on him.  Just like you forget to mention that Anaheim managed to Keep him through the expansion draft despite having significantly more prospects than Calgary.

 

I won't go on because this is getting personal and doesn't need to be.

[cross16]

Actually you did, you specifically asked.  And you forget to bring up the point that they only reason they were going to lose him is because they had no intention of protecting him, because they had given up on him.

 

 

 

Again if you don't want to pay attention to the facts then fine but the reality is if there was no expansion draft they almost certianly don't trade Jiggy, but believe what you want. It was either protect Jiggy, who at the time was not an NHL goalie and you backup that up in your post, or lose their starter at the time in Braithwaite who was an above avg starter. 

[Cowtownguy]

I remember a time when most goalies came from all over Canada, then mostly from Quebec, and now increasingly from other countries. This seems to be a Canadian problem generally and a Flames problem specifically. 

[MAC331]

I remember a time when most goalies came from all over Canada, then mostly from Quebec, and now increasingly from other countries. This seems to be a Canadian problem generally and a Flames problem specifically. 

Is the situation really any different in other countries ? Goalies are players with certain abilities and some will always be better than others. Sure good coaching helps but in the end it is the drive of the individual player that needs to come out in order to be exceptional. Playing time, repetitions and practice is what has to push them.

[cross16]

I think there are always ups and downs to development. For years the Russians could never develop goalies or goaltending and now suddnely they seem to be turning out top prospects every couple of years. Fins were starting to beocme a facotry for goaltending and now that has dried up too.

 

Ups and downs IMO and it tends to balance itself out. Obviously something you want to keep an eye on and make sure you don't fall behind but don't panic or overreact either. 

[Carty]

Ramo deserves some credit for really stepping up here...   He has continued to improve his stats and has made some great saves when needed...   Going 152 min. and 55 sec. without a puck getting past him really impressed me as well...

[MAC331]

Ramo deserves some credit for really stepping up here...   He has continued to improve his stats and has made some great saves when needed...   Going 152 min. and 55 sec. without a puck getting past him really impressed me as well...

Plenty of scenarios can unfold between now and next season but it not inconceivable that Ramo and Ortio are the combo for next year. 

[travel_dude]

Ramo deserves some credit for really stepping up here...   He has continued to improve his stats and has made some great saves when needed...   Going 152 min. and 55 sec. without a puck getting past him really impressed me as well...

 

That is certainly the truth.  He has gotten away from the "bad goal" per game and only lets in the occasional questionable goal.  By questionable, I mean possibly another goalie could have stopped it.  But watching last night's game, he made stops that he would have given up in October or November.  His rebound control has improved as well.  Pucks are being directed into neutral areas now instead of high-danger areas.

 

The one he let in last night looked to be him trying to twist to the other side, but there were two players in his crease.  Hard to say if he was interferred with (didn't appear to be), but it made his reaction slower. 

[JTech780]

I have been hard on Ramo in the past, but he has absolutely turned his game around the last month. He seems much more calm in the net, he isn't overplaying the puck and is staying deeper in the net, his rebound control is much better, and he isn't cheating as much. He seems much better positionally and technically and relying on his athleticism when has to. Hopefully he can keep this level of play up for the rest of the year. 

[robrob1974]

I have been hard on Ramo in the past, but he has absolutely turned his game around the last month. He seems much more calm in the net, he isn't overplaying the puck and is staying deeper in the net, his rebound control is much better, and he isn't cheating as much. He seems much better positionally and technically and relying on his athleticism when has to. Hopefully he can keep this level of play up for the rest of the year. 

 

They talked about his play about 5 games ago on a broadcast and said that the Goalie Coach has him playing deeper in his net, saying it took Ramo awhile to adjust and trust it. Now he doesn't have to rely on his athleticism as much. 

[conundrumed]

I have been hard on Ramo in the past, but he has absolutely turned his game around the last month. He seems much more calm in the net, he isn't overplaying the puck and is staying deeper in the net, his rebound control is much better, and he isn't cheating as much. He seems much better positionally and technically and relying on his athleticism when has to. Hopefully he can keep this level of play up for the rest of the year. 

He over-dramatized the shoot in on the Stamkos goal. He instantly put himself out of position and couldn't recover on a shoot in.

Not being overly-critical, I'm sure he replayed that one in his head!

[JTech780]

He over-dramatized the shoot in on the Stamkos goal. He instantly put himself out of position and couldn't recover on a shoot in.

Not being overly-critical, I'm sure he replayed that one in his head!

Sure, but all goalies let in a goal they would like to have back once in awhile, the key with Ramo lately is that it's not happening every night and it's not happening more than once in a game.

I am still a little leery of him just as he hasn't shown he can do it over a long stretch but I am willing to give him the credit for what he has done over the last month.

[cross16]

Ramo had no chance in the stamkos goal. That took a wicked bounce off the board right to a wide open stamkos. Would have taken an unbelievable save to stop that. I was as there and the puck shot off the boards right to Stamkos.

[robrob1974]

Ramo used to be be the best goalie not in the NHL. He should have the stamina to play as a starter. He had pretty good number in the KHL if I remember correctly? Not saying he is our goalie of the future, but hoping that his changes helps him. I was high on him the last two years and hoped he could be that guy. But I soured on him this season. 

Glad he's playing better now though. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

Ramo had no chance in the stamkos goal. That took a wicked bounce off the board right to a wide open stamkos. Would have taken an unbelievable save to stop that. I was as there and the puck shot off the boards right to Stamkos.

very similar in a way to one of the macdonald goals in that game against the US. Its very difficult to track the puck when it goes fof the boards behind you, and for it to shoot out right onto someones stick well thats that.

[darth_henning]

They talked about his play about 5 games ago on a broadcast and said that the Goalie Coach has him playing deeper in his net, saying it took Ramo awhile to adjust and trust it. Now he doesn't have to rely on his athleticism as much. 

 

That's interesting. There has been definite improvement over the past month or two now, if that's a new style or just more confidence, or both, its working. 

 

 

I was really hard on him this season, but supported him most of last. My main issue last year was he'd have 4 or 5 really good games, then get blown out. Wash rinse repeat on a predictable cycle. 

 

The last bit we haven't seen that from him, and he's shown that (despite one or two off games) he can be a predictable and dependable starter. That's what we needed him to be. Hiller won't be here next year, Ramo might get another year or two of a contract until Gillies is ready. 

[conundrumed]

Ramo had no chance in the stamkos goal. That took a wicked bounce off the board right to a wide open stamkos. Would have taken an unbelievable save to stop that. I was as there and the puck shot off the boards right to Stamkos.

Before the wicked bounce, he exited net left on a wide of the net shoot in.

If he stays on the post and watches the puck, he gets across for the shot.

I thought the goal was his own fault. Misplayed the sequence on the shoot in.

He should have 2 shutouts in a row, don't get me wrong, not complaining.

[kehatch]

Before the wicked bounce, he exited net left on a wide of the net shoot in.

If he stays on the post and watches the puck, he gets across for the shot.

I thought the goal was his own fault. Misplayed the sequence on the shoot in.

He should have 2 shutouts in a row, don't get me wrong, not complaining.

 

I don't care if Ramo stopped for a shot to Tequila and to guzzle a beer before that puck went in the net.  If the puck bounces end to end behind the net right on the stick of the best sniper in the NHL who is standing on the hash-marks then it isn't the goalies fault.  

[robrob1974]

That's interesting. There has been definite improvement over the past month or two now, if that's a new style or just more confidence, or both, its working. 

 

 

I was really hard on him this season, but supported him most of last. My main issue last year was he'd have 4 or 5 really good games, then get blown out. Wash rinse repeat on a predictable cycle. 

 

The last bit we haven't seen that from him, and he's shown that (despite one or two off games) he can be a predictable and dependable starter. That's what we needed him to be. Hiller won't be here next year, Ramo might get another year or two of a contract until Gillies is ready. 

 

The thing about last year is, we never found out whether he was able to bounce back from the game he got blown out. Although, his play was really good for 2 or 3 games, then regress for a game and then he would get blown out. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

Before the wicked bounce, he exited net left on a wide of the net shoot in.

If he stays on the post and watches the puck, he gets across for the shot.

I thought the goal was his own fault. Misplayed the sequence on the shoot in.

He should have 2 shutouts in a row, don't get me wrong, not complaining.

Are you really trying that hard to find fault in his game? Dont like him that much?

 

As kehatch said and I said earlier, its not exactly an easy play no matter which way you slice it. Ramo had a stellar game.

[conundrumed]

Are you really trying that hard to find fault in his game? Dont like him that much?

 

As kehatch said and I said earlier, its not exactly an easy play no matter which way you slice it. Ramo had a stellar game.

No, I'm commenting on the goal, not attacking Ramo. I'd have said the same of any goalie; it's still Stamkos, I never said easy save, just that he got out of position too early and couldn't recover.

Since Nov 13: 12-6-1; 2.07; .926.

Not complaining, it was one play, I'm not slamming him

All I can say about Ramo is that he's ripped that starter roll and we're getting consistency, all due to him.

He's pushing 2 months of being a bonafide NHL starter while playing every single game.

It is firmly him that's really helped turn it around.