Goaltending

[travel_dude]

I think your statement is wrong entirely. Yes our goaltending has contributed but look around the ice and there are any number of players not playing up to standard.(I don't need to name them all) The team has regressed this year due to these players not playing well. Recently team play has been improving and we have gained in the win column however a lot still needs to improve if we want a sniff at the playoffs again.

Any GM can only make moves as they present themselves, I honestly don't see an available upgrade for a goalie right now. We can try someone else and hope it improves but I'm not sure this would help.

I'm not sure I care if we make the playoffs this year (great if we do) but I would like to see a number of smart moves that better the future for us. This means using some of the players we know have some value but not part of the foreseeable future used in trades to get us players that are better fits going forward.

 

I think we all mostly agree the needs are a goalie, top 6 LW and RW and a top 4 defenseman ideally. Our pipeline looks like it could take care of our other needs outside of these top priorities.

A little hard to constantly have to score 3 or more goals per game to win.  That is what our goalies presented us with earlier in the season.  That was reduced for awhile, but we are climbing up again.  And that is with improved defensive play.  

 

You need to improve from the net outwards.  We have a better top 3D than a lot of teams.  We need them to have a dependable goalie to help make that 1st save.  When you have that goalie, you can better deploy your defense, knowing that the odd gaffe doesn't end up in the back of your net.  Another top 4 defenseman is going to cost a lot.  Teams are constantly looking for that.

If we happened to be able to swing a Hamonic deal, I would cut loose Hiller and get Bernier or other as a backup, for little cost.

 

Ideally, we trade in-season to a team looking to build a winner (TB could use cap space now to make room for other trades).  COL could decide to cut loose Varly to begin another rebuild cycle.  Andersen may not be a problem in ANA, but he could help them get picks, prospects or players (Hudler or Wideman??).

[MAC331]

A little hard to constantly have to score 3 or more goals per game to win.  That is what our goalies presented us with earlier in the season.  That was reduced for awhile, but we are climbing up again.  And that is with improved defensive play.  

 

You need to improve from the net outwards.  We have a better top 3D than a lot of teams.  We need them to have a dependable goalie to help make that 1st save.  When you have that goalie, you can better deploy your defense, knowing that the odd gaffe doesn't end up in the back of your net.  Another top 4 defenseman is going to cost a lot.  Teams are constantly looking for that.

If we happened to be able to swing a Hamonic deal, I would cut loose Hiller and get Bernier or other as a backup, for little cost.

 

Ideally, we trade in-season to a team looking to build a winner (TB could use cap space now to make room for other trades).  COL could decide to cut loose Varly to begin another rebuild cycle.  Andersen may not be a problem in ANA, but he could help them get picks, prospects or players (Hudler or Wideman??).

On paper we have a good top 3 and in the beginning Brodie was not even there and every other defenseman was playing terrible with the exception of our star 3rd pairing rock Engelland. I get that our goalies have to stop letting soft goals in early or later so the team doesn't deflate. Offensively last season our defense provided much of the goal scoring, not so much this season. Our forward lines have been an experimental playground by BH so far all season and for the most part everyone looks lost out there as far as responsibilities go.

 

I'm not ready to blame our plight so far this year solely in the lap of our goaltending.

[travel_dude]

On paper we have a good top 3 and in the beginning Brodie was not even there and every other defenseman was playing terrible with the exception of our star 3rd pairing rock Engelland. I get that our goalies have to stop letting soft goals in early or later so the team doesn't deflate. Offensively last season our defense provided much of the goal scoring, not so much this season. Our forward lines have been an experimental playground by BH so far all season and for the most part everyone looks lost out there as far as responsibilities go.

 

I'm not ready to blame our plight so far this year solely in the lap of our goaltending.

 

You are right in the distribution of scoring.  But GA are killing us.  PK is killing us.  We aren't losing 2-0 or 1-0 or 2-1.  We are losing games where we have a lead.  Or tied going into the 3rd.  The only times Ramo has looked comfortable are the games he has let in 2 or less.  The rest have at least one Ramo-esque goal.  Most have 2.  He has not been great even strength, just average or worse.

[darth_henning]

There are a number of problems this year no question. 

 

Hudler has fallen off the wagon for no apparent reason. 

Depth scoring has dried up. 

Depth defence is not playing like it should

Goaltending. 

 

 

That said, Gaudreau-Monahan and Bennett-Frolick look like solid top 6 players. Should Hudler regain form or Jones keep up his pace, we have a serviceable top 6 that needs a couple upgrades. Poirier might be one of those pieces. There are other guys in the A and juior who may be the other. 

 

Depth scoring is going to be an issue with Bollig and Raymond popping in and out of the lineup. Granlund, Ferland, Jooris are all fighting it right now. The return of Bouma will I think help significantly in the bottom six. (heck, he may help our top 6 if he plays up to last season, but that's iffy at best)

 

Even if not, there are a lot of bodies in junior who will get shots next year once we make some space. 

 

The forward troubles aren't actually that bad, and can be solved in house. 

 

 

Next lets look at D. Gio isn't playing as well as last year, but if coming off major surgery and seems to be consistently improving. Brodie has done well. Hamilton had a very rough start (due in large part to his pairing) but is consistently improving as well. That's a solid top 3.

 

The problem is that Wideman and Russell have gone from a good second pairing, that could play as first pairing at times, to an average 3rd pairing or worse. Engellend has actually looked like a solid 3rd pairing guy. I hated him last season, but at this point I'm kinda a fan. Go figure. 

 

We can address that a couple ways. Maybe via trade for Hamonic, but more likely in house. Kulak, Nakladal, Morrison and Wotherspoon are all in positions to make the jump to NHL positions with various abilities. Kulak looked VERYgood while he was here. So our D issues can be solved in house. 

 

 

Goaltending cannot be. The only starter we have is Gillies, and he's what, 2 or 3 years away? Ortio has potential, but has not looked good following his extended absence. 

 

 

Right now, we're actually sitting at 25th in goals for. But there's only a 10 goal difference behind Winnipeg in 10th place. Not great, but with decent goaltending, serviceable. We are dead last in goals against against. By 10. 25 behind 10th place. 

 

 

Scoring is a bit of an issue. Goaltending is a HUGE issue. We are one of THREE teams with a collective save percentage below 90% again in dead last. 

 

Put in some leage-average goal-tending, no we're not blowing it away, but that's a difference of about 7 goals over the season. That's three wins. That puts us in a playoff position. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We've had 17 games with 4 or more goal scored against us. We've won 3 of those. 

 

By contrast we've had 8 games with 3 or fewer goals scored against us. We've won 6 of those. 

 

 

Which means in 2/3 of our games, the goalie is letting in WAY too much. Sure, some of that is defense. But a lot of that is goaltending as well. 

[MAC331]

You are right in the distribution of scoring.  But GA are killing us.  PK is killing us.  We aren't losing 2-0 or 1-0 or 2-1.  We are losing games where we have a lead.  Or tied going into the 3rd.  The only times Ramo has looked comfortable are the games he has let in 2 or less.  The rest have at least one Ramo-esque goal.  Most have 2.  He has not been great even strength, just average or worse.

The NHL wants to see more scoring so we are just doing our part.

[jjgallow]

The NHL wants to see more scoring so we are just doing our part.

 

Awesome...

[AlbertaBoy12]

 

The problem is that Wideman and Russell have gone from a good second pairing, that could play as first pairing at times, to an average 3rd pairing or worse. Engellend has actually looked like a solid 3rd pairing guy. I hated him last season, but at this point I'm kinda a fan. Go figure. 

 

Goaltending cannot be. The only starter we have is Gillies, and he's what, 2 or 3 years away? Ortio has potential, but has not looked good following his extended absence. 

 

 

The numbers never really pointed to wideman/russell being a good pairing, blocking alot of shots and having better goaltending last season just saved them from some goals. This season our goaltending is below average which makes their pairing look that much worse. 

 

Personally until we stop playing defence so passively and throwing our bodies at shots we are going to struggle in our own zone. Below average goaltending doesnt help this issue.

[darth_henning]

They weren't a top pairing by any means. Not consistently. 

 

But they were playing at the level of a good second pairing especially after Gio went down. They stepped up a lot. 

 

That was in front of league average goaltending. You can't say that goaltending was 'saving them' when that's the case. 

 

Problem is this year they've run out of gas and aren't even playing as an average second pairing. (I know they're not together, but still using that as an aggregate comparison before someone comments on that)

[AlbertaBoy12]

They weren't a top pairing by any means. Not consistently. 

 

But they were playing at the level of a good second pairing especially after Gio went down. They stepped up a lot. 

 

That was in front of league average goaltending. You can't say that goaltending was 'saving them' when that's the case. 

 

Problem is this year they've run out of gas and aren't even playing as an average second pairing. (I know they're not together, but still using that as an aggregate comparison before someone comments on that)

Hillers save % is .856 this season while ramos was what .868 up until this recent run or something like that. If you compare that to last season at .918 for hiller and .912 for ramo you are talking about what 5 to 6% of shots going in vs being saves.

 

If a player shoots at 10% vs 15-16% thats a big difference. I would argue that their overall play has not changed that much, but the goaltending has made them look "worse".

[darth_henning]

Hillers save % is .856 this season while ramos was what .868 up until this recent run or something like that. If you compare that to last season at .918 for hiller and .912 for ramo you are talking about what 5 to 6% of shots going in vs being saves.

 

If a player shoots at 10% vs 15-16% thats a big difference. I would argue that their overall play has not changed that much, but the goaltending has made them look "worse".

 

Oh I fully agree on that. That was my point in my original post. 

 

I think I must have misunderstood what you mean somehow. 

 

Goaltending's massive decline is certainly the main issue in my mind. But Wideman and Russell have also blown a lot more of their defensive assignments than last year. Russell may not have taken the man, but he took the shot. That doesn't happen as much. Maybe because teams are ready for him, or maybe because he's worse. Wideman in particular though is losing guys WAY too often. 

 

Both are issues. Goaltending is more of an issue 

[AlbertaBoy12]

Oh I fully agree on that. That was my point in my original post. 

 

I think I must have misunderstood what you mean somehow. 

 

Goaltending's massive decline is certainly the main issue in my mind. But Wideman and Russell have also blown a lot more of their defensive assignments than last year. Russell may not have taken the man, but he took the shot. That doesn't happen as much. Maybe because teams are ready for him, or maybe because he's worse. Wideman in particular though is losing guys WAY too often. 

 

Both are issues. Goaltending is more of an issue 

oh true. I was just stating that last year when they missed their man or what have you goaltending more then not covered them off.

[wintersd]

Time to start helping Flames Goalies.

Who is reading the puck plays

Who is finding pucks best, these are Hallmarks of good goal tending.

Mentioned before Reverse Vertical Horizon Style of Goal Tending means  getting the new goalie skates which are lighter and using the goal posts to push off of and to stop with. Using  shoulders under cross bar and up against side post to close out shots in close and pads in the crease. Watch Carey Price and Lindqvist of the Rangers, these two have perfected the new method and their averages prove it and Bostons goalie also.

Got this info from The Hockey News Dec 7, 2015, issue.

Tell Karri Ramo about the new skates by Bauer and the new method of tending. Jared Clinton wrote this article about the best goalies, made a comment that head should be over forward knee at the level the water meets the beach sand.​ Think this method is from Rick St. Croix

[Dmac1103]

But who? Kristers is going to get the #1 in TB because of the cap. Who could we target?

I doubt he would be the #1 even if they traded Bishop, Andrei Vasilevskiy is Tampa's future in Net, Kristers would be a backup.

This sounds a lot like the Oilers and Cam Talbot. How has that worked out for them. Do you really think we can find another Kipper?

This sounds a lot like the Oilers and Cam Talbot. How has that worked out for them. Do you really think we can find another Kipper?

It could be but then again what did people think when we got Kipper, he was a stop gap until Turek was back and then he remained as the #1 for the next 9 years. We could find the next Kipper or the next Talbot, but then again signing a vet doesn't mean we get that same player he was with the other team.  

[MAC331]

I doubt he would be the #1 even if they traded Bishop, Andrei Vasilevskiy is Tampa's future in Net, Kristers would be a backup.

It could be but then again what did people think when we got Kipper, he was a stop gap until Turek was back and then he remained as the #1 for the next 9 years. We could find the next Kipper or the next Talbot, but then again signing a vet doesn't mean we get that same player he was with the other team.  

Maybe we are not looking deep enough, I recall Kipper being SJ 3rd string goaltender. Sutter moved here and knew about him all along.

[robrob1974]

Ya, you never know. Boston got Rask for very little. That's the kind of deal we need to make. Mind you, those kinds of deals are rare now. Teams tend to know what they have nowadays.

[cccsberg]

Ya, you never know. Boston got Rask for very little. That's the kind of deal we need to make. Mind you, those kinds of deals are rare now. Teams tend to know what they have nowadays.

Well, the Oilers got Nillson for not much and he seems to be doing pretty well for them....

[travel_dude]

Well, the Oilers got Nillson for not much and he seems to be doing pretty well for them....

Scrivens and Fasth and Dubie all looked good to start.  At some point the useless defense will hang him out to dry.  Against the Stars, they basically did that, but he won it.  I recall Scrivens having a 50 save performance last year in a win.  

 

We need a consistent goalie.  Doesn't have to post shutouts every night, but in a game where the Flames can't score much, he needs to keep it to a 1GA game.  In other words, he just needs to steal a game or two when the Flames are lacklustre on offense or defense.  Ramo is yet to steal one this season.  He was close, but one bad goal per game isn't going to cut it.

[conundrumed]

I think it boils down to having zero plan to replace Kipper. Vasilevsky was on the board when we took Jankowski but we didn't seem to have any interest in our goaltending atm. So we grabbed "the best goalie not in the NHL", twice. I guess that was the plan.

But for now I think of Holtby, Bishop, and to a lesser extent Eliot. They were goalies needing a place to play, we didn't seem to get in on any of that either.

So with that, I think we have to be patient for the right move, not the right now move.

Then of course there is "what are you willing to pay"? I'd rather roster players/prospects myself, not picks.

[jjgallow]

I think it boils down to having zero plan to replace Kipper. Vasilevsky was on the board when we took Jankowski but we didn't seem to have any interest in our goaltending atm. So we grabbed "the best goalie not in the NHL", twice. I guess that was the plan.

But for now I think of Holtby, Bishop, and to a lesser extent Eliot. They were goalies needing a place to play, we didn't seem to get in on any of that either.

So with that, I think we have to be patient for the right move, not the right now move.

Then of course there is "what are you willing to pay"? I'd rather roster players/prospects myself, not picks.

 

You would think that a goaltender would be the first step in a rebuild, followed by defencemen.

 

But at the time, we weren't talking rebuild.   Feaster was in "win now" mode and we needed a center.  Feaster even admitted Janko was a long term project, so I don't know what the deal was there.

 

Gillies could still turn out.   Ortio could too.  

 

But I just don't get the impression that the Flames take either of their development that seriously.  If that's true, then goaltending is going to be our top problem going forward.

[MAC331]

You would think that a goaltender would be the first step in a rebuild, followed by defencemen.

 

But at the time, we weren't talking rebuild.   Feaster was in "win now" mode and we needed a center.  Feaster even admitted Janko was a long term project, so I don't know what the deal was there.

 

Gillies could still turn out.   Ortio could too.  

 

But I just don't get the impression that the Flames take either of their development that seriously.  If that's true, then goaltending is going to be our top problem going forward.

Seriously, you don't think they take someone's development seriously ? quite a statement

[cross16]

Have to agree with MAC, I think the whole "Flames don't take their goalie development seriously" statement is pretty silly. The problem is, goalie is the MOST difficult position to develop. Flames are far from the ony team that struggles with it, its jsut that hard. They've taken goalies in basically every round over the last 10 years, they've acquird younger ones in trade, prime age, older ones etc etc. Its also significantly more difficult when you have a star for as long as they did as well. There is a reason that franchies struggle to go from 1 franchise goalie to another one. 

[travel_dude]

You would think that a goaltender would be the first step in a rebuild, followed by defencemen.

 

But at the time, we weren't talking rebuild.   Feaster was in "win now" mode and we needed a center.  Feaster even admitted Janko was a long term project, so I don't know what the deal was there.

 

Gillies could still turn out.   Ortio could too.  

 

But I just don't get the impression that the Flames take either of their development that seriously.  If that's true, then goaltending is going to be our top problem going forward.

 

In our first year of the rebuild (2013/14), we had JoeyMac, Ramo and Berra.  Ramo was brought in as a 1a/1b, the same as Berra.  They ran with the latter two most of the season, except for the start and for injuries.  

 

That says to me that we took signing and developing goalies seriously.  A choice was made to cut loose Berra and keep Ramo.  Just because Ramo and (later) Hiller haven't panned out doesn't mean they weren't developed.  You can't always get your future starter right away in a rebuild.  You may have to draft (years away), trade for (costly to the rebuild in assets), or sign a FA.  Having a stable crease presence is just as important during the rebuild as finding the right guy right away.

[cross16]

I think it boils down to having zero plan to replace Kipper. Vasilevsky was on the board when we took Jankowski but we didn't seem to have any interest in our goaltending atm. So we grabbed "the best goalie not in the NHL", twice. I guess that was the plan.

But for now I think of Holtby, Bishop, and to a lesser extent Eliot. They were goalies needing a place to play, we didn't seem to get in on any of that either.

So with that, I think we have to be patient for the right move, not the right now move.

Then of course there is "what are you willing to pay"? I'd rather roster players/prospects myself, not picks.

 

Flames drafted Irving in the frist round, Ortio in the 5th and then traded for Ramo. Doesn't exactly scream "we have no plan". It didn't work out but remember the vast majority of goalies don't work out, but its not likey they weren't prepared.

 

And I would go nuts over Vasilevsky just yet, the guy has yet to prove he can be a legit NHL goalie and the amount of 1st round prospects that look good early as goalie and then bust is pretty high. Personallyi would prefer Jankowski. 

[conundrumed]

Flames drafted Irving in the frist round, Ortio in the 5th and then traded for Ramo. Doesn't exactly scream "we have no plan". It didn't work out but remember the vast majority of goalies don't work out, but its not likey they weren't prepared.

 

And I would go nuts over Vasilevsky just yet, the guy has yet to prove he can be a legit NHL goalie and the amount of 1st round prospects that look good early as goalie and then bust is pretty high. Personallyi would prefer Jankowski. 

I don't mean it as a knock on Jankowski, just that I don't think we had a plan, just prayers.

Irving had established he isn't an NHL goalie, Ramo was unknown, Ortio in the 5th hardly seems like a great part of a master plan, and then we sign a goalie from the Swiss league.

I can correct myself if you like, we had a plan, but a really sketchy one.

I'm not overboard with Vasilevsky, but he was definitely a formidable goalie coming into the draft, but a Russian one.

Our plan really was trial by fire, not development. Our goaltending now looks exactly like that.

 

All of this is easy in hindsight, but the reality is we had a ton of holes in the roster, at center for a start. I know I'm being simplistic in "maybe we should have", but it's cause and effect nonetheless.

We have a good chunk of change tied up in our goaltending for what it is, even a Greiss looks fine tandeming at 1/3 of the cost as I mentioned pages ago.

Perhaps we're over-thinking it?

[The_People1]

We had a choice to draft either top ranked Thatcher Demko or second ranked Mason McDonald in the 2014 entry draft and we went with McDonald. The Canucks took Demko two picks later.  Did the Flames make a mistake here?  McDonald is having a fairly average season in the Q whereas Demko is dominating College...