Goaltending

[jjgallow]

Gillies had a couple bad months in Dec/Jan and, like kehatch aludes to, may have been injury related.

 

He returned to form in Feb/March.

 

6 straight wins, followed by one loss and then a shutout.

 

http://www.uscho.com/stats/player/mid,21374/jon-gillies/

 

On that team, highly impressive.

 

 

Like kehatch says...for better or worse, it's a moot point now for next season (I would question what he has left to learn in US College).   Long-term, we have every reason to be excited about this kid.

[phoenix66]

Agreed. Him, Griess, and Montoya are the guys I want. I don't want an older vet like Hiller, Miller, Brodeur, etc.

Someone that has played enough games to know what is what but who is young enough to be part of the long term picture.

 

Basically next season , Ramo is flames #1, Ortio is Heat #1. i believe Roy will / shoudl back up Ortio. At this moment , dont think we have any additional starter prospects lined up for Alaska.

Until I heard he is retiring, I had thought Giguere was the perfect choice for Flames backup .. but now that hes not available the options get dicey.

The perfect backup is one that can give you 25-30 quality starts, with an expectation of winning. We need to avoid the over the hill gang(Jmac) who were never good enough to be starters, but at the same time players who have the ability to be #1's if the big guy goes down . The  ideal guy is one who will fight for his playing minutes, Push the starter but not pout being the #2 guy. Somebody that knows his role is backup and likes it that way. Somebody more of a  mentor. Ideally is someone who is still starter quality , but no longer able to handle the rigors of 50-60 starts

Hiller would be great , but doubt he comes here. Montoya I'm not sold on , hes flamed out and been a disappointment in his career so far .Nabokov likely still wants a starter job, I do think Bryzgalov could be considered.

I do need to do some more research into who's available, but for now, whats totally clear is they want a veteran backup .. Ortio isnt ready to start and as such should be in Adirondack starting lots, and Ramo is the starter until somebody takes it from him.

[Carty]

I do think Bryzgalov could be considered.

 

[JTech780]

I still think that if we can get Can Ward on the cheap it could be a very good pick up.

I heard on the NHL Network Radio that Carolina doesn't employ a goalie coach and that a lot of Ward's issues over the last few years are technical issues, as well as injury related. Ward hasn't had a goalie coach since junior. First thing Calgary has to do is hire a goalie coach, which they are in the process of doing.

[jjgallow]

In his games in Calgary he had a .891 sv%, that is not the sv% of an NHL caliber goalie. He will get there no need to rush him.

 

 

er.....then why is Ramo our starter at .911?

 

 

Compare Ortio's first 9 games to Ramo's:

http://flames.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8471403&season=20132014&view=gamelog

http://flames.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8475299&season=20132014&view=gamelog

 

Ortio was pulled for one game, Ramo was pulled for two games.

 

Ortio:  .891      Ramo:   .884

 

 

None of these stats, including the .911, are anywhere near good enough for us to be talking about true starters.  We don't have a starter right now.  We have at least two goalies who could develop into them.

 

And I fail to see why we think Ramo is going to come in stronger at training camp than Ortio.  Ramo is well past his development years.  There is Every possibility that Ortio comes into training camp twice as good as he finished last year.

[cross16]

er.....then why is Ramo our starter at .911?

http://flames.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8471403&season=20132014&view=gamelog

 

Compare Ortio's first 9 games to Ramo's:

http://flames.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8475299&season=20132014&view=gamelog

 

Ortio was pulled for one game, Ramo was pulled for two games.

 

Ortio:  .891      Ramo:   .884

 

 

None of these stats, including the .911, are anywhere near good enough for us to be talking about true starters.  We don't have a starter right now.  We have at least two goalies who could develop into them.

 

And I fail to see why we think Ramo is going to come in stronger at training camp than Ortio.  Ramo is well past his development years.  There is Every possibility that Ortio comes into training camp twice as good as he finished last year.

Your answer is right in your own post. Ramo had a bad start and a terrible save percentage and he still managed to finish at .911 which means he played llike a legit starter the rest of the season.

December had a 922 save percentage in 7 GP

January 911 with 11 GP

February was 100% but that was only one game

March 924 with 5 GP

April 914 with 6 GP.

On a bad team those are starter numbers. Ortio did the opposit he started strong and began to fade which is an indication he is not qu ite there, close but not quite and he needs to play. Sure if he can beat Ramo out in camp the option is there and I have no doubt that the flames would make theta move if that happened but I don't think it's plan a. Ortio needs to play and needs to carry the load as a starter and he can still prove things in the a.

[jjgallow]

On a bad team those are starter numbers. Ortio did the opposit he started strong and began to fade

 

On a Really bad team maybe (and I'm talking about his best months).   Like nowhere near the playoffs.   Is it fair to call those starter numbers? 

 

Maybe it's semantics but to me that's not a starter.

 

I think an arguement could be made either way.   My arguement would just win, is all

 

Keep in mind we only discuss Ramo's save percentage to be fair to him and give him the benefit of the doubt.  The GAA is scary bad, and consistent from season's start to finish.

 

 

Honestly 9 games is not enough to claim there's a trend.  In Ortio's 8th game he was .929.

[Wreckening]

The other factor in all this is the state of our D corps.  We're good but not great.  Save percentages are directly linked to how well your team plays in front of you.  Our forwards got the message last season and great strides were made.  Now we need to focus on D.  The Flames are still looking for a true shutdown D man and a solid 3-4 guy.

 

As for Ramo, I'm still bemoaning the fact that BB came out and publicly stated that Ramo was going to be our number 1.  That said however, Ramo did perform well in the second half of the season once he began getting the starts.  I think the whole Berra thing really got Ramo off his game.

 

As for a backup this coming season I would still like to see Montoya as the guy.

[phoenix66]

On a Really bad team maybe (and I'm talking about his best months).   Like nowhere near the playoffs.   Is it fair to call those starter numbers? 

 

Maybe it's semantics but to me that's not a starter.

 

I think an arguement could be made either way.   My arguement would just win, is all

 

Keep in mind we only discuss Ramo's save percentage to be fair to him and give him the benefit of the doubt.  The GAA is scary bad, and consistent from season's start to finish.

 

 

Honestly 9 games is not enough to claim there's a trend.  In Ortio's 8th game he was .929.

 

 

i think we are all in agreement that the future is trending to Ortio, but at the same time now is not his time. hes not yet ready to carry the load, and until he is they are totally correct in leaving him on the farm to get the minutes and become all that he can be.

 

whether you believe ramo is a true starter or not , really , is irrelevant and youre right we can have this argument / debate all year long .. but the truth is he keeps us in games and most nights gives us a chance to win. thats exactly what this team needs right now.

 doesnt matter who you put back there, they wont make a significant difference in the results from where this team is right now defense and development wise.

You could put Jonathan Quick or King Henry back there, and the results will be the same. to go out and get your " true starting goalie" ,, would be a waste of resources, money and in the end only hurt Ortio. Right now Ramo is the guy , and the best guy for the job .

[robrob1974]

i think we are all in agreement that the future is trending to Ortio, but at the same time now is not his time. hes not yet ready to carry the load, and until he is they are totally correct in leaving him on the farm to get the minutes and become all that he can be.

 

whether you believe ramo is a true starter or not , really , is irrelevant and youre right we can have this argument / debate all year long .. but the truth is he keeps us in games and most nights gives us a chance to win. thats exactly what this team needs right now.

 doesnt matter who you put back there, they wont make a significant difference in the results from where this team is right now defense and development wise.

You could put Jonathan Quick or King Henry back there, and the results will be the same. to go out and get your " true starting goalie" ,, would be a waste of resources, money and in the end only hurt Ortio. Right now Ramo is the guy , and the best guy for the job .

 

 

I have to agree with you. You can put anyone back there and the results are the same. We have a solid team game, but there's just not enough yet to allow for real NHL numbers. YOu can argue all you want but the unfortunate thing is Ramo's numbers can't used against him because he's on such a poor team. 

 

I wonder what he'd do on a St. Louis, or another team. I think his overall play is solid. It was way better than Berra's from the games I saw. 

I do think Ramo is the guy as well. 

[kehatch]

On a Really bad team maybe (and I'm talking about his best months).   Like nowhere near the playoffs.   Is it fair to call those starter numbers? 

 

Maybe it's semantics but to me that's not a starter.

 

I think an arguement could be made either way.   My arguement would just win, is all

 

Keep in mind we only discuss Ramo's save percentage to be fair to him and give him the benefit of the doubt.  The GAA is scary bad, and consistent from season's start to finish.

 

 

Honestly 9 games is not enough to claim there's a trend.  In Ortio's 8th game he was .929.

 

Ramo played very well once he established himself as the starter.  This is why I don't like debating goalies with you.  You have your guys, and they can do no wrong.  And you have guys you don't like, and they can do no right.  

 

Goalie SV% in Bottom 5 teams teams (SV% qualifiers on NHL.com apply)

• Miller (.923)
• Ramo (.911)
• Enroth (.911)
• Thomas (.909)
• Nabakov (.905)
• Berra (.897)
• Poulin (.891)
• Dubnyk (.894)

He was comparable or better (using SV%) to Quick, Fleury, Lack, Hiller, Howard, Bryzgalov, Thomas, Ward, Brodeur, etc.  

 

Now consider that Ramo wasn't given consistent starts until Nov 30.  From Nov 30 until the end of the season Ramo's SV% was .919.  That was over 31 games (about 75% of the season) so it isn't a small sample.  Also consider that Ramo had a winning percentage on a team that finished 4th last and was significantly better than the other 3 goalies that played for the Flames.  

 

I am not completely sold on Ramo as it was one season.  But he just turned 27.  There is every reason the Flames should be looking for him to be an NHL starter.  

[jjgallow]

Ramo played very well once he established himself as the starter.  This is why I don't like debating goalies with you.  You have your guys, and they can do no wrong.  And you have guys you don't like, and they can do no right.  

 

 

kehatch,

 

why did I bring Ramo up?   Because Ortio's .891 was described as not NHL quality (even as a backup).

 

So I compared their first 9 games.   Ortio won.

 

People got upset.    

 

The point is getting lost over emotional semantics.

 

I have no interest in spending significant time debating the value of .911 on this team.

 

I'm simply asking why .911 is starter material and .891 is not NHL quality.

 

I'm simply asking why we give a 26 year old a full season's patience and believe he will continue to improve each year, when a 22 year old has an easier and more successful time than him breaking into the league.

 

Just asking.   I don't have "my guys".   I ask questions about performance and it upsets people.

[DirtyDeeds]

The age old problem of judging goalies strictly on their stats rears its ugly head again. You can't do it without considering how the team played in front of them and breaking the season down into specific parts for consideration.

 

Ramo wasn't very good to start the season and he was not given the starts because of that. Everyone here complained when the coaches gave a bunch of starts to Berra instead.

 

Ramo improved midseason and a good portion of that time was when Gio was out of the lineup with injury and the team couldn't score goals and couldn't defend very well either. Berra did not have to deal with those issues very much or at least to the extent Ramo did.

 

Ramo finished the season with respectable enough numbers to bring his overall yearly average up to adequate. He was good enough that the management (BB) declared him competent for the starting job this coming season. 

[cross16]

I think Ortio has a great future and I think he could end up being better then Ramo but right now I think Ramo has proven to be a very good NHL starter and Ortio has yet to assert himself as a starter. Personally I would have no issue with the flames using both Ramo and Ortio next season and giving then even starts but the problem with that is also the potential that someone like Ortio could go weeks without a start if Ramo gets hot so that's why I think it's best to have Ortio run as he starter whether or not he plays well or poorly in abbotsford you can keep giving him starts but in calgary you'd have to roll with the guy who is playing the best. That's not the right situation to develop Ortio properly.

[phoenix66]

kehatch,

 

why did I bring Ramo up?   Because Ortio's .891 was described as not NHL quality (even as a backup).

 

So I compared their first 9 games.   Ortio won.

 

People got upset.    

 

The point is getting lost over emotional semantics.

 

I have no interest in spending significant time debating the value of .911 on this team.

 

I'm simply asking why .911 is starter material and .891 is not NHL quality.

 

I'm simply asking why we give a 26 year old a full season's patience and believe he will continue to improve each year, when a 22 year old has an easier and more successful time than him breaking into the league.

 

Just asking.   I don't have "my guys".   I ask questions about performance and it upsets people.

i think there's a big difference between .911 and .891

effectively , assuming an average of 30 shots per game, and your starter should be starting approx 55 games minimum,  that is the difference between allowing 2-3, 0r 3-4 goals per game

I believe all people are saying , is that we want to see Ortio developed properly , we don't need to rush him in , Ramo is capable of holding the fort, and Ortio is quite capable of filling in if he goes down , but hes not ready for full time duty yet .

 

i gotta admit , i love and admire your passion for the team and your players.. i think where it gets heated is when you use the same set of stats and information to explain why Ramo isnt NHL starter quality because hes older and Ortio is because hes younger.

ideally how this season goes, is Ortio tears up the A again , Ramo gets an extension  and Ortio is full time back up / 1B next year and they battle it out .. and by then Gillies signs  gets to start handling the A duties, Macdonald potentially in Alaska

[s4xon]

Treliving stated in his final post draft video that they were looking for a backup to Ramo, not a starting goaltender. 

 

Whether that backup be a vet such as HIller or a younger kid such as Johnson or Greiss, they most likely won't be playing the majority, but if Ramo goes down with injury, or if he goes on a very unlucky streak, the said backup will have to play well enought to carry an NHL team.

[CheersMan]

i think we are all in agreement that the future is trending to Ortio, but at the same time now is not his time. hes not yet ready to carry the load, and until he is they are totally correct in leaving him on the farm to get the minutes and become all that he can be.

 

whether you believe ramo is a true starter or not , really , is irrelevant and youre right we can have this argument / debate all year long .. but the truth is he keeps us in games and most nights gives us a chance to win. thats exactly what this team needs right now.

 doesnt matter who you put back there, they wont make a significant difference in the results from where this team is right now defense and development wise.You could put Jonathan Quick or King Henry back there, and the results will be the same. to go out and get your " true starting goalie" ,, would be a waste of resources, money and in the end only hurt Ortio. Right now Ramo is the guy , and the best guy for the job .

  

I have to agree with you. You can put anyone back there and the results are the same. We have a solid team game, but there's just not enough yet to allow for real NHL numbers. YOu can argue all you want but the unfortunate thing is Ramo's numbers can't used against him because he's on such a poor team. 

 

I wonder what he'd do on a St. Louis, or another team. I think his overall play is solid. It was way better than Berra's from the games I saw. 

I do think Ramo is the guy as well. 

I'll 3rd that. Right now Ramo is the guy, Ortio needs more games played in the A. He's not going to improve playing backup on the big team. Flames have already said this is the mandate. We need to find a backup that will push Ramo, right now we don't have that guy.

[robrob1974]

kehatch,

 

why did I bring Ramo up?   Because Ortio's .891 was described as not NHL quality (even as a backup).

 

So I compared their first 9 games.   Ortio won.

 

People got upset.    

 

The point is getting lost over emotional semantics.

 

I have no interest in spending significant time debating the value of .911 on this team.

 

I'm simply asking why .911 is starter material and .891 is not NHL quality.

 

I'm simply asking why we give a 26 year old a full season's patience and believe he will continue to improve each year, when a 22 year old has an easier and more successful time than him breaking into the league.

 

Just asking.   I don't have "my guys".   I ask questions about performance and it upsets people.

 

OHHH I caught the convo in mid convo… 

 

I think right now Ramo is seen as a stop gap for our future and does the job on a team that's not expected to make the playoffs. Ortio has some developing to do and will be better served to get starts in the AHL and continue to grow. 

 

IF Ortio has improved over the summer and outplays Ramo, then we should play Ortio…

 

Until we see what the team looks like after all of the additions (to get to the Cap Floor) and build the team, we don't know what we have other than the fact that we have a team that bought in 100% and leadership who expects anyone else to as well. 

 

Goaltending is a problem, but I consider D to be bigger because and I think we just need a good 30 game back up. 

[jjgallow]

OHHH I caught the convo in mid convo… 

 

I think right now Ramo is seen as a stop gap for our future and does the job on a team that's not expected to make the playoffs. Ortio has some developing to do and will be better served to get starts in the AHL and continue to grow. 

 

IF Ortio has improved over the summer and outplays Ramo, then we should play Ortio…

 

Until we see what the team looks like after all of the additions (to get to the Cap Floor) and build the team, we don't know what we have other than the fact that we have a team that bought in 100% and leadership who expects anyone else to as well. 

 

Goaltending is a problem, but I consider D to be bigger because and I think we just need a good 30 game back up. 

 

Well I'm glad Somebody caught it, lol.   I don't actually like debating as much as I end up doing.

 

I agree 100%.  Especially on your last sentence.

 

Our biggest concern now and in the future is at D.

[Carty]

Macdonald potentially in Alaska

 

Perhaps somewhere lost in the wilderness up here might work...

 

[DirtyDeeds]

I think Ortio has a great future and I think he could end up being better then Ramo but right now I think Ramo has proven to be a very good NHL starter and Ortio has yet to assert himself as a starter. Personally I would have no issue with the flames using both Ramo and Ortio next season and giving then even starts but the problem with that is also the potential that someone like Ortio could go weeks without a start if Ramo gets hot so that's why I think it's best to have Ortio run as he starter whether or not he plays well or poorly in abbotsford  Adirondack you can keep giving him starts but in calgary you'd have to roll with the guy who is playing the best. That's not the right situation to develop Ortio properly.

Fixed that for you. I know I keep wanting to say Abby or the Heat too...

[phoenix66]

Perhaps somewhere lost in the wilderness up here might work...

Thats hilarious:) to clarify tho I didnt mean Joey, I meant the new kid. Give him another (final?) Year in junior then let him have Alaska while Gillies becomes the man in Adirondack

Ill be very disappointed if they resign Joey..great depth guy, but right now the kids gotta play

[flower88]

Ramo played very well once he established himself as the starter.  This is why I don't like debating goalies with you.  You have your guys, and they can do no wrong.  And you have guys you don't like, and they can do no right.  

 

Goalie SV% in Bottom 5 teams teams (SV% qualifiers on NHL.com apply)

• Miller (.923)
• Ramo (.911)
• Enroth (.911)
• Thomas (.909)
• Nabakov (.905)
• Berra (.897)
• Poulin (.891)
• Dubnyk (.894)

He was comparable or better (using SV%) to Quick, Fleury, Lack, Hiller, Howard, Bryzgalov, Thomas, Ward, Brodeur, etc.  

 

Now consider that Ramo wasn't given consistent starts until Nov 30.  From Nov 30 until the end of the season Ramo's SV% was .919.  That was over 31 games (about 75% of the season) so it isn't a small sample.  Also consider that Ramo had a winning percentage on a team that finished 4th last and was significantly better than the other 3 goalies that played for the Flames.  

 

I am not completely sold on Ramo as it was one season.  But he just turned 27.  There is every reason the Flames should be looking for him to be an NHL starter.  

I totally agree, given the chance i think Ramo will do well as our starter, with Ortio being the future, he needs more time in the Ahl for sure.

[jjgallow]

I gotta say,

 

I don't think anyone on these boards has pumped Ortio more than me.

 

But....I still don't see him as our bonafide future.  I see it as a tie between him and Gillies.   An extremely close tie, that, if anythying, Gillies might have the edge on right now.

 

Gillies had a bad month.  So what.    Ortio had a rough start in the AHL a few years back.  So what.

 

I really think there is a tendancy here, especially within the organization, to judge young goalies by their worst games. 

 

Judging Gillies and Ortio at their best, I think we have to call our goalie future promising, but undecided at this point.

[cross16]

I gotta say,

 

I don't think anyone on these boards has pumped Ortio more than me.

 

But....I still don't see him as our bonafide future.  I see it as a tie between him and Gillies.   An extremely close tie, that, if anythying, Gillies might have the edge on right now.

 

Gillies had a bad month.  So what.    Ortio had a rough start in the AHL a few years back.  So what.

 

I really think there is a tendancy here, especially within the organization, to judge young goalies by their worst games. 

 

Judging Gillies and Ortio at their best, I think we have to call our goalie future promising, but undecided at this point.

At the seasons ticket holder meeting Burke referenced and Gilles and his growth. Said he is playing well down in the NCAA but to be a prospect worth getting excited about he needs to dominate and take games over and they arnt seeing that to this point. That's the step they want to see him take is year.