Goaltending

[kehatch]

Didn't he fulfill his contract in the KHL? Isn't that why he didn't come over? I don't think it was because of Kipper.

He didn't want to play for Montreal with Price there. But he is on record as looking forward to back up Kipper.

[phoenix66]

Where do people get their info? Ramo never "refused" to come over.he had a nhl contract and he played it to the end.he talked about looking forward to signing in Calgary before kipper was retiring and even spoke of looking forward to playing with "his idol"

As for ortio, I think hes earned a right to play for a spot on the big club next year..but although hes looked good he still looks like a year in the ahl wouldn't hurt him.

For all the past and present berra doubters..what does it say when Roy, Sakic and likely the best goalie coach in hockey pursued him, gave up a round 2 pick and just signed him to a 3 year extension??

It says we just gave up a stud goalie...just wait..

[senor_incendiarse]

For all the past and present berra doubters..what does it say when Roy, Sakic and likely the best goalie coach in hockey pursued him, gave up a round 2 pick and just signed him to a 3 year extension??

It says we just gave up a stud goalie...just wait..

If we did so be it then good for the Avs and good for Berra, but the bottom line is if Allaire can do something with him then its a luxury we never had to begin with.  Even Giguere when everyone was crying in 2003 because we gave up on him, people didn't realize he wouldn't have become that here, he was a completely different goalie, and yet such an up and down goalie that I didn't care that we gave up on him because we wound up with something better.  Now all we gotta do is try to do what San Jose did with the Kipper pick.

[kehatch]

If we did so be it then good for the Avs and good for Berra, but the bottom line is if Allaire can do something with him then its a luxury we never had to begin with.  Even Giguere when everyone was crying in 2003 because we gave up on him, people didn't realize he wouldn't have become that here, he was a completely different goalie, and yet such an up and down goalie that I didn't care that we gave up on him because we wound up with something better.  Now all we gotta do is try to do what San Jose did with the Kipper pick.

 

That and Colorado doesn't see a stud goalie.  They see a young potential NHL back-up on a minimum wage contract that can back-up Varlamov. 

[jjgallow]

It's not all about winning percentage. In fact, that's a pretty poor stat to use, especially in year 1 of a rebuild.  Last I checked, it takes a team in front of a goalie to win games.

 

By your logic, Ortio is as close to Mac as you can get in terms of wins/losses.  Same team. 

 

Ramo is 28, he'll be a tandem for at least 7 more years.  Gillies is anywhere from 3-6 years away from being a starter.  Better get used to it.

 

And building around Roy is laughable.  The kid is far from talented. 

 

Sorry, when you said "record", I interpreted that as looking at his wins.

 

I agree that it's not a fair measurement. 

 

But, usually when someone calls a stat poor, they present a better, alternative stat.

 

What stat are you looking at that makes Ramo look good?

[Carty]

Looks like Joey Mac gets the start tonight...

 

[s4xon]

Sorry, when you said "record", I interpreted that as looking at his wins.

 

I agree that it's not a fair measurement. 

 

But, usually when someone calls a stat poor, they present a better, alternative stat.

 

What stat are you looking at that makes Ramo look good?

 

 

Joni Ortio:

 

Karri Ramo:

 

Ramo has played 29 games.  The middle portion of the season, when the Flames were doing horrible, especially on their nice little losing streak, Ramo was in the mix, and still managed a .908 sv% with only 2.66 GAA.  I would say that's impressive for a team that's 25th in the league.  Going by your wins stat, he's won more than he's lost, which is over .500 hockey.

 

Ortio has been playing well, but with a Flames team that has gone 5-5-0 in their last 10, which is exactly .500 hockey. 

 

For comparible, here is Henrik Lunqvist's season:

 

Ramo isn't far behind in GA, and is very close in save%, with a goalie that is considered the top 3 in the world.  Also, the Rangers are 15th in the league.

 

So, what stats are you looking at that make Ramo look bad?

[cross16]

Outside kf the first month or so of the season, Ramo has played well and I think he has shown at the very least he is an NHL goalie. Is he a starter, that I'm not sure of. I think ag worst he is a guy you could use in a 1A 1B rotation and play him around 40ish games from a starting perspective and I think you'd be happy with that. He isn't an elite starter that will steal you a lot kf games and I'm kiy sure he has shown enough to be a starter you'd hitch your wagon too and start 50 or more games but yk his credit he hasn't really had the opportunity to either.

[robrob1974]

Well, to be honest, I don't know what people know about goaltending on this forum. Half of the people berated Kipper and the other half seemed to praise him. This tells me half of us don't really know what we're talking about. I for one saw Kipper for what he was worth. Someone who hid a lot of our errs. These guys are doing good for what we have. We're in a rebuild and there's no point in judging until we get some other needs filled and we'd know exactly what we have. 

 

I think we have more than people give credit for… I like Ramo. I hope he comes back same as before his injury. I liked him over Berra. If Berra fixes a few things, he will be pretty good. He still looks a bit awkward.

[jjgallow]

Joni Ortio:

 

Karri Ramo:

 

Ramo has played 29 games.  The middle portion of the season, when the Flames were doing horrible, especially on their nice little losing streak, Ramo was in the mix, and still managed a .908 sv% with only 2.66 GAA.  I would say that's impressive for a team that's 25th in the league.  Going by your wins stat, he's won more than he's lost, which is over .500 hockey.

 

Ok....i have to point out the problem here...I asked if you had an alternative to winning percentage, and you presented me with winning percentage.

 

I'll give you this....I did not expect it or see it coming

 

The only difference is you're comparing regulation wins to regulation losses, where he wasn't pulled.  Which is not how .500 hockey is calculated.

 

Question:   Does 11 + 10 + 4 = 29?

 

If not, what was the outcome of those other 4 games and how did that come to be?

 

Ortio has been playing well, but with a Flames team that has gone 5-5-0 in their last 10, which is exactly .500 hockey. 

 

For comparible, here is Henrik Lunqvist's season:

 

Ramo isn't far behind in GA, and is very close in save%, with a goalie that is considered the top 3 in the world. 

 

By.....whom?

 

Just wondering, as these are some of the worst numbers of Lundquist's career.  It's almost as if you went and looked for a goalie in a slump?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8468685

 

Also wondering how you see those save percentages as similar?

 

Also, the Rangers are 15th in the league.

 

So, what stats are you looking at that make Ramo look bad?

 

I sincerely don't understand....basically all of them?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLGAGALL&sort=savePercentage&viewName=summary

[s4xon]

Ok....i have to point out the problem here...I asked if you had an alternative to winning percentage, and you presented me with winning percentage.

 

I'll give you this....I did not expect it or see it coming

 

The only difference is you're comparing regulation wins to regulation losses, where he wasn't pulled.  Which is not how .500 hockey is calculated.

 

Question:   Does 11 + 10 + 4 = 29?

 

If not, what was the outcome of those other 4 games and how did that come to be?

 

 

By.....whom?

 

Just wondering, as these are some of the worst numbers of Lundquist's career.  It's almost as if you went and looked for a goalie in a slump?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8468685

 

Also wondering how you see those save percentages as similar?

 

 

I sincerely don't understand....basically all of them?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLGAGALL&sort=savePercentage&viewName=summary

 

I presented you with your winning percentage that you so nicely like to bring up.  That and age. ,I had nothing to do with it.

 

If we are going with the stats in the now, and if Ramo sucks, then so does Howard, Miller, Bernier, Mason, Nabokov, and Mike Smith too.  So does Ortio.  There, makes sense right?

 

Tinfoil hat, the Flames are doomed, and welcome to the next 20 years of rebuild, etc, etc. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It's not hard to see how close the %'s are.  If you can't, there's no sense in arguing with someone who can't.

[jjgallow]

Ok, well at the end of the day, I asked you for an alternative to winning percentage and you gave me winning percentage. ....but skewed.

I am genuinely confused by that. If you want to tell me I own winning percentage...as if it were a piece of property or a trademark. ..you are free to do that but I fail to see the relevancy.

You can gather a list of big names currently struggling or at the end of their careers...and compare them to Ramo in his prime.

You can develop your own stats theory which relies on comparing Ramo's bad stats to other goalies which also have bad stats, and concluding that Ramo is better than them or as good as them based on a "closeness" logic you have developed.

 

You can compare Ramo with 22 year old prospects straight up to prove your point, ignoring common stats where Ortio is significantly better, such as Goals Against.  Then you can take other stats, like save percentage, and reverse your "closeness" logic to claim that Ramo is significantly better.

 

You can ignore the fundamental problem that Ramo, in his prime, generally ranks 50th to 55th in the league for Most stats (whereas Ortio, for instance, ranks as high as 24th, playing for the same team).   Then, with Ramo ranking in the 50's, claim that he is disadvantaged playing for the 26th overall Flames.    And, you can do this with the assumption that the NHL not only has room for 55 starting goaltenders, but it has room for 55 top-10 goaltenders.

You can do all of these things. If you think it wise.

But if you think this is going to be a fast rebuild,

Think again.  

 

(you may recall the whole basis of your theory is how bad you think the Flames are.  And I have not argued this point with you).

[DirtyDeeds]

Personally I think that this team and the goalie stats should be taken with a big grain of salt this season.  All the goalies have had periods where they gave the team a chance to win or performed well enough.

 

We are about to set a record for most 1 goal differential games played and that is a good indicator how the team has been affected by injuries.

 

 

The depth of this team is very shallow indeed and the simple injuries to some key players has had big influences on the teams results. Gio was out and we couldn't defend worth beans is one example and the goalies who had to play during that time should not have to be judged on their GAA or their SV % due to that.

 

Comparing Ramos results when Gio and Russel were both out, to Ortio who has enjoyed the benefits of both of them is silly. This is not the "same team" playing in front of those two...

 

Suddenly when Russell returns from his injury and also when Glencross returns form his injuries we are scoring more goals too. Should Ortio be praised for more wins because the team is scoring now where they were not before?

[jjgallow]

I'm pretty sure Ramo's #s were actually worse when some of these key players were in the lineup, actually.

 

I agree that you can't easily compare them, but not because it's a different team.  Clearly, it's not a different team.

 

You can't easily compare them, because Ortio is 22 years old.  Neither Ramo or Berra were anywhere near NHL-ready at this age.

 

We should be excited that we have a 22-year old goalie which has shown himself to be either nearly, or fully NHL ready, at the age of 22, with his best goaltending likely years ahead of him.

 

To be completely honest, I hope Ramo (thanks Carty) takes over when healthy, because I'd rather see Ortio take the Heat on a playoff run.  I think it would better-develop him for next year.

 

Who's the better 22-year-old goaltender?  Ortio hands down.

 

Who's the better goaltender right now?  If you think it's Ramo, great.   There's an arguement to be made there, and I'd rather see Ortio shoot for a championship anyway.

[Carty]

To be completely honest, I hope Berra takes over when healthy, because I'd rather see Ortio take the Heat on a playoff run.

 

Too late for Berra...   But I wouldn't be surprised to see Ramo back this week or next, and Ortio back with the Heat for a run...

 

j/k...   We know you meant Ramo and typo'ed...

[DirtyDeeds]

I'm pretty sure Ramo's #s were actually worse when some of these key players were in the lineup, actually.

 

I agree that you can't easily compare them, but not because it's a different team.  Clearly, it's not a different team.

Clearly our team is a different team when Gio is out of the lineup. We struggled to score goals and our PP was dismal at best with Russel out. Soon as Glenny returns we start scoring some goals at a higher rate.. This show me that we can't afford a lot of injuries and play at a higher level as a team when we are healthy.

 

You can't easily compare them, because Ortio is 22 years old.  Neither Ramo or Berra were anywhere near NHL-ready at this age.

 

 

We should be excited that we have a 22-year old goalie which has shown himself to be either nearly, or fully NHL ready, at the age of 22, with his best goaltending likely years ahead of him.

 

To be completely honest, I hope Berra takes over when healthy, because I'd rather see Ortio take the Heat on a playoff run.  I think it would better-develop him for next year.

Would we have to give back the 2nd round pick to get Berra back?

 

Who's the better 22-year-old goaltender?  Ortio hands down.

 

Who's the better goaltender right now?  If you think it's Ramo, great.   There's an arguement to be made there, and I'd rather see Ortio shoot for a championship anyway.

I made no judgments as to who was better. I only stated I thought it foolish to compare the goalies when some of your best players(especially your captain and best Dman) are out of the lineup for the bulk of the work on one goalie and not the other.

 

That is why I said I thought the best observation was if any of the goaltenders gave us a chance to win. In this case it does not matter what age they are or who is going to be better years down the road. We don't need to know that right now or any more the only contract due for re-signing was Berra's and he is gone now.

[jjgallow]

Too late for Berra...   But I wouldn't be surprised to see Ramo back this week or next, and Ortio back with the Heat for a run...

 

j/k...   We know you meant Ramo and typo'ed...

 

thx Carty

[jjgallow]

I made no judgments as to who was better. I only stated I thought it foolish to compare the goalies when some of your best players(especially your captain and best Dman) are out of the lineup for the bulk of the work on one goalie and not the other.

 

Well....at the end of the day we both agree it's foolish to compare.  I don't think it's ever reasonable to expect the Flames to bee 100% healthy and I'm not sure they have been, or will be, this season.  But ok.

 

That is why I said I thought the best observation was if any of the goaltenders gave us a chance to win. In this case it does not matter what age they are or who is going to be better years down the road. We don't need to know that right now or any more the only contract due for re-signing was Berra's and he is gone now.

 

The question is....do we Really need to know who gives us the better chance of winning?

 

I'm not saying we should throw Olivier Roy in there for the rest of the season.

 

But, to me, the whole debate is pointless because I'd rather see Ortio winning a cup this year with the Heat and getting an extra 25 games of development, rather than playing for the Flames in the hopes of gaining a few extra points which will amount to absolutely jack squat.  

 

IMHO, Ortio's time is next season.  But by that time, he may have won a championship and will be going after the starting position.  But that's neither here nor now.

[The_People1]

I'm not sure I want Ortio back with the Heat right now considering the core forwards/Dmen are with the Flames.  It's a sinking ship over there.  If Ortio goes back, then they must accompany him with the cavalry.  Jones, Knight, Byron, Wotherspoon, etc all have to go back too. 

[DirtyDeeds]

I'm not sure I want Ortio back with the Heat right now considering the core forwards/Dmen are with the Flames.  It's a sinking ship over there.  If Ortio goes back, then they must accompany him with the cavalry.  Jones, Knight, Byron, Wotherspoon, etc all have to go back too. 

Well JJ has some good points.

 

He wants Ortio in a position to win and to keep busy. I can understand where he is coming from and hope for the same thing(best place to develop.) Heat may or may offer the best place to be depending on who we use our 4 callups on and for how long.

 

When you look at the start of our season we had 3 goalies vying for the starter and backup positions. Ortio wasn't in the picture for this year much if at all. We have pretty much found out what all 3 can do for us short term.

 

Berra now gone and Ramo hurt means we get to step up the study of everyone down the ladder and see what they have to offer too. Ortio has advanced his stock a fair bit considering he wasn't really in anyones radar for the Flames to start the season.

[cross16]

As long as Ortio keeps playing well and keeps playing the best place for him is the NHL. I think it would be silly on so many front to send him down when clearly he is playing at NHL calibre.... So far

[jjgallow]

As long as Ortio keeps playing well and keeps playing the best place for him is the NHL. I think it would be silly on so many front to send him down when clearly he is playing at NHL calibre.... So far

 

He really is making a case for himself. 

 

But, we've said this about other goaltenders too, and the Moment they disappointed us, we disappeared them.

 

Henrik Karlsson the "Calgary Tower", our savior, comes to mind.

 

Oh...and so does Ortio with his original AHL showing.

 

Then there's...cough cough...Baertschi.  Who nearly everyone was on board with starting the NHL early due to his point production.  In hindsight....it's a different story.   Now, when we think of how easy it is to rush wingers, multiply that by 10 and you have goaltenders.

 

Both Ramo and Berra started out with some tremendous pre-season and early season promise, and then reality set in as teams started arriving having reviewed their style, fully equipped with knowledge and instruction on the best way to score on them.

 

That will come soon with Ortio.  It is a real risk and our organization has a history of misinterpreting it.  Goaltenders have a history of their confidence getting shattered.  If we were going for a cup this year, I would say it's worth it.  Ironically, my guess is if we were going for a cup, management would go with a veteran like JMac.

 

It's a question of risk.   There is very little risk in developing Ortio slow.   Their are very real, dangerous risks of pushing his development too fast.   We will only know about them wen it's too late.  But it will be very hard to justify them in hindsight, with a "2014 cup run" argument.

 

 

I would ask if we're actually in a rush here.  Also, if Ortio stays up, there is the potential for the Heat losing their playoff positioning, or potentially even missing the playoffs.    And that potentially means 25 less games of crucial playoff development for Ortio this year.

 

Personally, I think the playoff development is more important than the early NHL development, if you consider our long-term goals.

 

Ortio has shown to raise his level in the playoffs before, and this is something that should be developed further.

 

If The Flames manage to work all of this out, and Ortio gets NHL experience AND playoff experience, great.  But this kind of thing usually comes at a cost.

[travel_dude]

He really is making a case for himself. 

 

But, we've said this about other goaltenders too, and the Moment they disappointed us, we disappeared them.

 

Henrik Karlsson the "Calgary Tower", our savior, comes to mind.

 

Oh...and so does Ortio with his original AHL showing.

 

Then there's...cough cough...Baertschi.  Who nearly everyone was on board with starting the NHL early due to his point production.  In hindsight....it's a different story.   Now, when we think of how easy it is to rush wingers, multiply that by 10 and you have goaltenders.

 

Both Ramo and Berra started out with some tremendous pre-season and early season promise, and then reality set in as teams started arriving having reviewed their style, fully equipped with knowledge and instruction on the best way to score on them.

 

That will come soon with Ortio.  It is a real risk and our organization has a history of misinterpreting it.  Goaltenders have a history of their confidence getting shattered.  If we were going for a cup this year, I would say it's worth it.  Ironically, my guess is if we were going for a cup, management would go with a veteran like JMac.

 

It's a question of risk.   There is very little risk in developing Ortio slow.   Their are very real, dangerous risks of pushing his development too fast.   We will only know about them wen it's too late.  But it will be very hard to justify them in hindsight, with a "2014 cup run" argument.

 

 

I would ask if we're actually in a rush here.  Also, if Ortio stays up, there is the potential for the Heat losing their playoff positioning, or potentially even missing the playoffs.    And that potentially means 25 less games of crucial playoff development for Ortio this year.

 

Personally, I think the playoff development is more important than the early NHL development, if you consider our long-term goals.

 

Ortio has shown to raise his level in the playoffs before, and this is something that should be developed further.

 

If The Flames manage to work all of this out, and Ortio gets NHL experience AND playoff experience, great.  But this kind of thing usually comes at a cost.

Some good points, but....

 

Ultimately, I assume that Ortio stays up over JMac when Ramo returns.  Keep in mind that Ramo is still a ways out, according to Hartley, so even if/when he comes back this season, Ramo won't get the majority of the starts. 

 

Jmac can keep the playoffs in reach until the end of the Flames season.  Ortio gets his chance in the AHL playoffs, to continue his development and experience a playoff run.  Done.

[cross16]

He really is making a case for himself. 

 

But, we've said this about other goaltenders too, and the Moment they disappointed us, we disappeared them.

 

Henrik Karlsson the "Calgary Tower", our savior, comes to mind.

 

Oh...and so does Ortio with his original AHL showing.

 

Then there's...cough cough...Baertschi.  Who nearly everyone was on board with starting the NHL early due to his point production.  In hindsight....it's a different story.   Now, when we think of how easy it is to rush wingers, multiply that by 10 and you have goaltenders.

 

Both Ramo and Berra started out with some tremendous pre-season and early season promise, and then reality set in as teams started arriving having reviewed their style, fully equipped with knowledge and instruction on the best way to score on them.

 

That will come soon with Ortio.  It is a real risk and our organization has a history of misinterpreting it.  Goaltenders have a history of their confidence getting shattered.  If we were going for a cup this year, I would say it's worth it.  Ironically, my guess is if we were going for a cup, management would go with a veteran like JMac.

 

It's a question of risk.   There is very little risk in developing Ortio slow.   Their are very real, dangerous risks of pushing his development too fast.   We will only know about them wen it's too late.  But it will be very hard to justify them in hindsight, with a "2014 cup run" argument.

 

 

I would ask if we're actually in a rush here.  Also, if Ortio stays up, there is the potential for the Heat losing their playoff positioning, or potentially even missing the playoffs.    And that potentially means 25 less games of crucial playoff development for Ortio this year.

 

Personally, I think the playoff development is more important than the early NHL development, if you consider our long-term goals.

 

Ortio has shown to raise his level in the playoffs before, and this is something that should be developed further.

 

If The Flames manage to work all of this out, and Ortio gets NHL experience AND playoff experience, great.  But this kind of thing usually comes at a cost.

IMO there is nothing better for development then playing in the NHL at the appropriate time and clearly right now is an appropriate time for Ortio. Quite frankly I don't care about the heat or the heats playoff runs so long as Ortio is playing well at the NHL level because the ultimate goal is to get him to succeed at the NHL level and thus the flames to success is it not? So if he is succeeding here why would you decrease the level of competition and skill and think that is positive for his development? That's like saying we should send Sean Monahan down to the OHL so he can get playoff experience even though the playoff experience still doesn't match the quality of play and competition he is currently getting. NHL regular season>>>>>>>>>>>>>AHL playoff experience.

If he struggles you send him down, simple as that. One send down is not going to shake a goalies confidence and if it does you didn't have much to work with in the first place.

[jjgallow]

I kind of feel like a mediator of extremes, all the while being called extreme by both sides, lol.

 

I've spent 95% of my time on this thread saying Ortio is under-rated, and met with very harsh criticism.

 

Now, I'm saying "woah guys...he's not That good...at least, not Quite yet".....and, also being strongly disagreed with....

 

 

The one constant on here is that none of us ever agree.  And maybe that's okay.  Lord knows we can't get away with this at work or at home.

 

Personally, I find it odd that we were So, sooooo delicate with Ramo and Berra. "we can't make a judgement 5 games in..don't be so quick to judge....and adjustment period is needed"....etc......

 

Then with a 22 year old kid who has the potential to be the future face of our franchise...

 

"throw him in there!  Sink or swim!   If he can't handle the pressure he doesn't belong here!"

 

 

But whatever, it's all good, and fun to watch