Goaltending

[jjgallow]

Brossoit could come back to bite us.  I don't think he will be an NHL starter.  But it is possible he could.  Goalies are tough to predict. But this is just the case of the Oiler's trying to find something positive in their miserable lives.  

 

He sure could.  Is it likely?  not super likely, but better odds than Smid delivering us the Stanley cup anytime soon.

 

One thing I don't like, is that we threw Ortio into the AHL too early, watched him get predictably blown out 9-0, and then banished him from North America for far too long (acquring Way too many goalies at the same time, demonstrating our lack of faith in him).

 

Ortio is showing us now that he is no trivial prospect.

 

This year, we throw Brossoit into the AHL WAY to early, which was plain to anyone who follows goaltenders, and watched him get Predictably blown out 9-0, and then we banish him to Edmonton for good.

 

Let's hope Brossoit doesn't turn out like Ortio did after we banished him.  

 

Could it come back to bite us?  Yes imho.  We have a serious problem with goaltender development, assessment, and management.  We give up too much potential for sub-par goalies, and we give up a lot of goaltending potential because we don't know how to manage, assess, or develop it.

 

Is it the end of the world?  No.  a relatively minor trade.   We Hope.

[jjgallow]

BTW, imho, at some point we are going to have to realize what we have in Reto Berra.   

 

Which isn't an NHL goalie.  Very, very close, but not an NHL goalie.  I can only imagine how popular this statement will be.   Let me just say that I do think Berra is better than Ramo.  I just don't think that says much, unfortunately.

[travel_dude]

BTW, imho, at some point we are going to have to realize what we have in Reto Berra.   

 

Which isn't an NHL goalie.  Very, very close, but not an NHL goalie.  I can only imagine how popular this statement will be.   Let me just say that I do think Berra is better than Ramo.  I just don't think that says much, unfortunately.

I don't really know what we have as far as goaltending goes. Berra has played 5 games? Ramo 7?

Maybe if we were able to keep the number of shots below 30, we could get an accurate picture. Maybe if you did video review with the whole team, they might see why goals are coming fast and furious.

BTW, the Avs lost by the exact same score tonight. JS Giggy with 5 GA. Point is it happens.

[Lucid_Flame91]

Alot of blow outs tonight, were not the only ones, it happens.

[jjgallow]

I don't really know what we have as far as goaltending goes. Berra has played 5 games? Ramo 7?

Maybe if we were able to keep the number of shots below 30, we could get an accurate picture. Maybe if you did video review with the whole team, they might see why goals are coming fast and furious.

BTW, the Avs lost by the exact same score tonight. JS Giggy with 5 GA. Point is it happens.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree.   Too early to make a final judgement.  and I Don't want them to subject Ortio to this yet either. 

 

And I also agree that our biggest problem is defense, not goal.

 

Put honestly, at this early stage:

 

Reto is better than Ramo, and Ramo is better than our defense.

 

And Reto is not NHL material.

 

That, unfortunately, is where we're at.

[geo35]

Please make up your mind. Which is it   ?   your not going to make a final judgement   or Reto is not a NHL goalie.

Don't get me wrong, I agree.   Too early to make a final judgement.  and I Don't want them to subject Ortio to this yet either. 

 

And I also agree that our biggest problem is defense, not goal.

 

Put honestly, at this early stage:

 

Reto is better than Ramo, and Ramo is better than our defense.

 

And Reto is not NHL material.

 

That, unfortunately, is where we're at.

Reto had a rough night but if every goalie that had a rough night in the NHL is not a NHL goalie then there would be zero Goalies.
Look at the two greatest goalies of all time did they have off nights?

Brodeur Oct 9th 1999  3 goals on 8 shots in less than 15 minutes of ice time. Age 27

Roy march 16 1991  4 goals on 21 shots in 40 minutes of ice time. age 26

bot having bee in the league for a few years at this point of their careers.  

 

THE POINT IS   IS he a NHL goalie?  who knows but i can tell you one thing. Making a judgement on a guy after 3 or even 5 games ( which is what you have done) is a snap judgement. Give him 20 and see where he is then.

 

I have no problem with you disliking him or saying he was horrible in a game.  But to state he is not a NHL goalie is saying your insight is better than an NHL scout or coach. He has had good and bad games in his five he has played. this being his worst game he has played so far. But is it all him  or does the team in front of him deserve some of the fault.  think that over. 

[cannedice99]

I'm wondering why we have given up on MacDonald?  Speaking of timelines, we brought Berra up way too early, and now we are paying for it.  People say Berra is better than Ramo (I consider them equal), but imo, Joey Mac is better than both.

[jjgallow]

Please make up your mind. Which is it   ?   your not going to make a final judgement   or Reto is not a NHL goalie.

Reto had a rough night but if every goalie that had a rough night in the NHL is not a NHL goalie then there would be zero Goalies.

Look at the two greatest goalies of all time did they have off nights?

Brodeur Oct 9th 1999  3 goals on 8 shots in less than 15 minutes of ice time. Age 27

Roy march 16 1991  4 goals on 21 shots in 40 minutes of ice time. age 26

bot having bee in the league for a few years at this point of their careers.  

 

THE POINT IS   IS he a NHL goalie?  who knows but i can tell you one thing. Making a judgement on a guy after 3 or even 5 games ( which is what you have done) is a snap judgement. Give him 20 and see where he is then.

 

I have no problem with you disliking him or saying he was horrible in a game.  But to state he is not a NHL goalie is saying your insight is better than an NHL scout or coach. He has had good and bad games in his five he has played. this being his worst game he has played so far. But is it all him  or does the team in front of him deserve some of the fault.  think that over. 

 

[jjgallow]

I'm wondering why we have given up on MacDonald?  Speaking of timelines, we brought Berra up way too early, and now we are paying for it.  People say Berra is better than Ramo (I consider them equal), but imo, Joey Mac is better than both.

 

Exactly.   I'm not so much wondering in terms of the Flames organization, as much as I'm wondering on this Goaltender thread, why we (the fans here) have give up on JMac.   I also believe he is better than both. 

 

The more games we give RetRamo, the more it looks that way.

 

From the Flame's perspective, they Must know that they've acquired too many goaltenders and at least one has to be cut soon.

 

IMHO, they would Like it if it was JMac making their RetRamo acquisitions look better.

 

But I am quite sure they're aware that they may need JMac to stay respectable in the league, and that one of Reto or Ramo needs to go.

 

To save the suspense:  I think it's Reto who has to go.  Even though he's better than Ramo.  Just a contract thing.  Unless he starts playing like a starting goaltender.  I believe he has, in 2 of the games he's played in.   He needs to play like that in Most of his games, though.  Highly unlikely.

[travel_dude]

Exactly.   I'm not so much wondering in terms of the Flames organization, as much as I'm wondering on this Goaltender thread, why we (the fans here) have give up on JMac.   I also believe he is better than both. 

 

The more games we give RetRamo, the more it looks that way.

 

From the Flame's perspective, they Must know that they've acquired too many goaltenders and at least one has to be cut soon.

 

IMHO, they would Like it if it was JMac making their RetRamo acquisitions look better.

 

But I am quite sure they're aware that they may need JMac to stay respectable in the league, and that one of Reto or Ramo needs to go.

 

To save the suspense:  I think it's Reto who has to go.  Even though he's better than Ramo.  Just a contract thing.  Unless he starts playing like a starting goaltender.  I believe he has, in 2 of the games he's played in.   He needs to play like that in Most of his games, though.  Highly unlikely.

It should have been obvious that JoeyMac was the one to go.  You don't waive him hoping he makes it through waivers to play as a backup to Ortio.  He is gone pending an injury to one of Berra or Ramo.  Even then, we may just see Ortio come up.  Joey PO'd a lot of people on his way out of town.  He is one level below B.Jones at this point.

 

His success rate and/or stats are nothing we couldn't get on the waiver wire anyway, so I think he is toast.  Nothing to do with proving value to the Ramo/Berra signings; he was a signing that was at best a stopgap measure.  If he had come in and provided over .900 and GA of 2.5 he would still be here.  He didn't so we get to see what we have in Berra and Ramo.

[cannedice99]

So what we have is Ramo = Berra = JoeyMac? 

 

Then I guess the issue is the defense, and this whole thread in unnecessary.

[jjgallow]

It should have been obvious that JoeyMac was the one to go. 

 

Name literally any stat, and he's done better this year than Ramo or Bera.  Wins, winning percentage, GAA, Save percentage...

 

Look at their track records, same thing.

 

JMac's not an NHL starter.   That doesn't mean he's the obvious choice to go, imho.  Maybe the popular choice, whatever that's worth.

 

 

You don't waive him hoping he makes it through waivers to play as a backup to Ortio.  He is gone pending an injury to one of Berra or Ramo.  Even then, we may just see Ortio come up.  Joey PO'd a lot of people on his way out of town.  He is one level below B.Jones at this point.

 

IMHO, they sent him down because they Know what they have in him, and they want to learn what they have in Ramo and Berra.   That does not mean they are better than him.  It means we have more to learn about them.  Right now.

 

Unfortunate about the comments.  He was right, but he shouldn't have said them.  You could be right that the comments will bury him.  But I hope not.

 

His success rate and/or stats are nothing we couldn't get on the waiver wire anyway, so I think he is toast.  Nothing to do with proving value to the Ramo/Berra signings; he was a signing that was at best a stopgap measure.  If he had come in and provided over .900 and GA of 2.5 he would still be here.  He didn't so we get to see what we have in Berra and Ramo.

 

See my comments above about stats.

[Lucid_Flame91]

Unfortunate about the comments.  He was right, but he shouldn't have said them.  You could be right that the comments will bury him.  But I hope not.

 

What exactly did he say? I must of missed it.

[Carty]

What exactly did he say? I must of missed it.

 

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/MacDonald+gaffe+costs+Flames/9115368/story.html

[travel_dude]

Name literally any stat, and he's done better this year than Ramo or Bera.  Wins, winning percentage, GAA, Save percentage...

 

Look at their track records, same thing.

 

JMac's not an NHL starter.   That doesn't mean he's the obvious choice to go, imho.  Maybe the popular choice, whatever that's worth.

 

 

 

IMHO, they sent him down because they Know what they have in him, and they want to learn what they have in Ramo and Berra.   That does not mean they are better than him.  It means we have more to learn about them.  Right now.

 

Unfortunate about the comments.  He was right, but he shouldn't have said them.  You could be right that the comments will bury him.  But I hope not.

 

 

See my comments above about stats.

Wow, those are some awesome stats that Joey has compared to Berra and Ramo. Any stats other than this year's mean nothing. Apples and oranges.

By obvious choice, I mean obvious who we had targeted to play this year. Joey started on the Flames because he was waiver eligible, not because he was the better goalie in TC. Waiving an NHL goalie is akin to the end of the road. Like the guy, but time to move on from a 33yr old sub-standard goalie; he won't get any better than he is.

[Lucid_Flame91]

Ortio is now 7-0 with the Heat, leading them to a franchise best 9th consecutive win tonight beating bryzgalov and the OKC.

They play again tomorrow, I hope he can continue this he's been a stud so far.

[jjgallow]

Ortio is now 7-0 with the Heat, leading them to a franchise best 9th consecutive win tonight beating bryzgalov and the OKC.

They play again tomorrow, I hope he can continue this he's been a stud so far.

 

He has been awesome.  He's lived up to all my hopes for him so far.   Maybe not his best game tonight, but still good enough for the win.

 

I can see Ortio making a push for the NHL as early as next year.  Who knows, maybe even starter with the way things are going now (until Gillies is ready).   But I hope Ortio doesn't come up this year.  He needs to get one solid AHL season under his belt first.

 

I would not be surprised if they play Macdonald tommorrow, to give Ortio a mental break and.....also to keep JMac fresh in case of a callup.

[kehatch]

I'm wondering why we have given up on MacDonald? Speaking of timelines, we brought Berra up way too early, and now we are paying for it. People say Berra is better than Ramo (I consider them equal), but imo, Joey Mac is better than both.

Both Rama and Berra are at a point in their development where they are either ready or they won't be. I don't agree we rushed Berra.

MacDonald isn't very good and he will never be any good. We know what we have in him and it isn't good enough. If you are sinking with the piece of wood you have then you drop it and grab another piece of wood. You don't worry that the one you are drowning with could possibly float a bit better then the other one you pick out.

The Flames problem is they entered the season with a bunch of broken planks. They failed in developing a successor to Kipper and now they are scrambling.

I haven't given up on Berra. I don't think the Flames should unless a young goalie with potential become available for the right price.

[Carty]

Looks like Berra is back in the net for tonight's game...

[jjgallow]

 

If you are sinking with the piece of wood you have then you drop it and grab another piece of wood. You don't worry that the one you are drowning with could possibly float a bit better then the other one you pick out.

The Flames problem is they entered the season with a bunch of broken planks. 

 

That being said, we could get a little bit better with our wood-picking.  And, nobody's actually going to drown here.  The first one to the bottom of this ocean gets Sam Reinhart.

 

JMac's offered us the best performance so far.  If we utilize that, nobody drowns.  Nobody makes the playoffs or wins the cup, but of our existing options he may provide us with the most wins.

 

Frantically jumping around from bad goaltender to bad goaltender in the hopes of....what...making the playoffs?  Winning the cup?   I don't get it, but as a long-term fan, okay.   It just brings us closer to getting Sam.

 

It IS a little embarrassing to watch, sometimes.  But what I'm more concerned about, long-term, is our defense.

 

We have great goaltending prospects.  We're good there.  We have no reason for desperation in net, long-term.

 

 

[Jarvis21]

That being said, we could get a little bit better with our wood-picking.  And, nobody's actually going to drown here.  The first one to the bottom of this ocean gets Sam Reinhart.

 

JMac's offered us the best performance so far.  If we utilize that, nobody drowns.  Nobody makes the playoffs or wins the cup, but of our existing options he may provide us with the most wins.

 

Frantically jumping around from bad goaltender to bad goaltender in the hopes of....what...making the playoffs?  Winning the cup?   I don't get it, but as a long-term fan, okay.   It just brings us closer to getting Sam.

 

It IS a little embarrassing to watch, sometimes.  But what I'm more concerned about, long-term, is our defense.

 

We have great goaltending prospects.  We're good there.  We have no reason for desperation in net, long-term.

 

 

MacDonald really hasn't offered the best performance. They're all pretty equally terrible right now.

 

Why then are we playing Berra and not Joey Mac? Like Bob McKenzie said (to paraphrase) We know what MacDonald is, a lifelong backup. We do not know what Berra and Ramo can give us yet. 

 

Granted the early results don't look good, but neither has the team in front of them, so judging them is trying to heap a teams worth of blame on two guys. We knew this would be a rough season...the first bit got our hopes up (and is probably why you push for Joey so hard, because he was there when we were winning), but those wins were team efforts and partly because we surprised people. We will likely finish bottom 5 this season, our goaltenders will likely finish at or below the .900 sv % mark.

 

We should play Berra and Ramo (equally, so Ramo needs more starts because Hartley is too biased toward Berra right now) and let Ortio rock it out in Abbotsford because having him play in the NHL will ruin his confidence right now (because he will do every bit as bad here as our other tenders); let him continue winning and developing while our two 26 year old keepers make the most of their only real NHL shot. Because if they don't play well, Berra goes to the AHL or Swiss league and Ramo retreats to Russia. If they do play well...great. But our goalies look bad because our team looks bad, Mac, Berra and Ramo. I like Joey, but he's never going to become more than what he has been, so why waste the time?

[Louis23]

What message do you send to Ramo after giving ANYONE but him (MacD, Berra) ALL the opportunities in the world? Clearly, Hartley hasn't been fair to him at all. Berra and McD have struggled yet they got starts in a row. Hartley's favoritism is getting annoying.

[Lucid_Flame91]

What message do you send to Ramo after giving ANYONE but him (MacD, Berra) ALL the opportunities in the world? Clearly, Hartley hasn't been fair to him at all. Berra and McD have struggled yet they got starts in a row. Hartley's favoritism is getting annoying.

 

I can't stand it anymore, this season wouldn't be making me mad if we didn't have situation's where hartley is screwing with our goalies and one of our moreso best forward prospects in bear.

[Lucid_Flame91]

Since everyone seems focused on Ramo and Berra

 

I missed this so I would assume others have aswell

 

WINNIPEG, MB -- Jon Gillies, the Flames third round pick in the 2012 NHL Draft, made history this weekend when he posted his eighth collegiate shutout in a 3-0 win over UVM on Saturday. He is now the Providence College Friars all-time shutouts leader and is just 10 games into his sophomore season.

 

Gillies also slammed the door on UVM on Friday, making 37 saves in a 3-2 Friars win.

[geos]

What message do you send to Ramo after giving ANYONE but him (MacD, Berra) ALL the opportunities in the world? Clearly, Hartley hasn't been fair to him at all. Berra and McD have struggled yet they got starts in a row. Hartley's favoritism is getting annoying.

 

Let's see: Ramo has been awful, Berra has not. They've started an equal number of games. The only thing I think you can criticize is why it took so long to get Berra up.

 

Berra gives the team the best chance to win every night. Both of his wins were steals where he was the difference maker. He stopped 43 shots last night. Ramo doesn't inspire that kind of confidence and has yet to prove he can steal one.