Cammalleri At Center

[WILLDABEAST]

Your ideas don't make a lot of sense. We haven't started the ground burning go with our rookies and live with the consequences Oiler theory yet.

All the other remaining speedy centers who have upside and can win faceoffs and score are long gone. They likely would have scoffed at our meager offering anyway because everyone is scooping up the Centers and the Dmen and paying top dollars for them.

Who is left? I understand what you want, but that guy isn't out there waiting on our offer. Langkow & BMo is still available too, after that it is slim pickings for centers.

The idea would be to add flexibility not stifle development. BMo was a veteran who filled in on any line most positions, quite well his first season here. The ability to put a veteran like Arnott anywhere would be the plus and you aren't taking away from the rookies if they are earning their spots.

What are we going to do if we run into another string of injuries like last season? We are weaker down the middle especially top 2 Centers. When was the last time that Cammy(who most are slotting in as our #1C) played a full season?(He hasn't ever btw) Are we then going to then double shift Stajan on the first two lines if Cervenka struggles at center? Backs didn't show anything when he played with Iggy and Tangs last year.

People in this thread are trying to say just about every center(including the wings we have slotted into center position) are going to have to have really good years. When was the last time we had a good overperforming bunch of centermen?

Its not that we don't need a veteran guy who can play up and down the lineup... Its more so that there isnt that guy... Arnott can not fill in up and down the lineup... He is a 4rth liner who can maybe take a shift or two at another line...

If we get injuries and rely on him to center a top line he will be a huge huge huge liability... Id rather have a young guy be a huge huge huge liability cause at least they see some valuable time...

If injuries strike we are screwed and arnott will not offer any insurance...

Like you said there arent any others available and thats not good but we dug ourselves in a hole and we gotta bite the bullet... Arnott isnt going to prevet that

I know you want arnott to be that veteran guy who can play up and down the lineup and be solid... Pitch in 30 points against other top lines win big faceoffs and be solid defensively.. But thats just not him anymore hes a 4rth line center...

4rth line centers dont patch up top lines... Asides name recognition he isnt going to do much... Unless our 4rth line was giving up a bunch of goals every game we dont need arnott...

Trust me i watched him a good bit these past few years... He doesnt fit

[Carty]

The guy we really could have used coming into this season is an easy answer...

His name is Jokinen...

We had him, he was our best proven center, and Feaster let him walk for nothing without getting a replacement first...

Even at the same contract he signed with the Jets, it was cheap insurance for 2 years at a crucial position we were already weak at... He might have even signed for a half mil a year less to stay here...

Who would you really have on the team, Arnott or Joker?

[DirtyDeeds]

It sounds like you are selling him short.

The Blues found enough ice time for him last season to get him more than 14 mins/gm avg. That sounds a lot more than the "good only for 4th line center duty" you have him pegged at.

Anyway I was just answering your question a few posts ago when you asked why, so I gave you a few reasons why and an example (BM0) why. I wasn't saying we should go out and get him. As I said in my first post about him he wasn't my first choice.

We could do a lot worse than him and no rookies have stepped up to the top 2 C plate have they?

[DirtyDeeds]

Who would you really have on the team, Arnott or Joker?

Joker of course! He was the best center available in FA this season. Time will tell if letting him walk was a decent or ugly decision from our side of things.

This is Feasters second full term as GM. He hasn't had the cap jail handcuffing him for 2 summers now. I don't see the Fans being nearly as forgiving with him again because he has re-signed all the players he wanted to see return. It appears what we see now is pretty much what we are going to get for next season.

[gsp393]

What year did he underperform exactly? I have defended against this statement so many times over the past two seasons, and no one has made a credible response.

He hasn't underperformed at all in the past two seasons, and the season before that he still wasn't underperforming in comparison to other players in the league.

I wish people would stop spewing this BS. Because that's all it is--crap.

Ok well jokinen wasn't brought in as a 3 mill center or a 4.5 mill center he was brought in as a 5.25 mill center. During his time at 5.25 he played well below his salary hence why he got bumped down, at 3 mill he was a bargain there is no doubt about that. But at 4.5 mill i would say only this year did his entire game reflect that, this is the first year i found he pulled his weight defensively. It being a contract year also slows the hype.

So firstly in my opinion olli only played to his capabilities on his contract year after a huge pay drop, this is suspicious, doesnt warrant letting him go but it add to the reasons.

Second: olli is aging, its impossible to say but his play COULD hit a sharp decline at any time, and we have to believe if anyone is to notice anything management would be it, not us. To add to that Hartley is supposedly going to bring in some crazy conditioning which management MAY HAVE thought olli himself may not have been capable of.

Third: is the fact that the general consensus among the fans was for change, while center is a weak position i think most people are in agreeance that olli was not a #1 center and was hated on by a lot of people for his poor play in earlier years. Again that doesnt warrant trading him but it helps add reason.

Forth: points are fine and dandy but his goal totals are nothing spectacular for 4.5 or 5.25 million dollar player. And judging that the plan was for him iggy and tangs to be the first line he should be playing more of a goal scoring role as tangs fills the need of a playmaker. again with this if he had better luck this year he would have been near or past 30 goals with all the posts, but posts are really no better then 10 feet wide.

Lastly is that as said this year was a solid year by him, last year wasn't attrocious by any means but i didn't find him to be very solid defensively, also his +/- was terrible the last two years to add to why he may be the scapegoat.

Point is I see many reasons why olli wasn't retained, all of it being speculation no doubt, but regardless management seemed to decide to go a different direction and although some people may disagree i think its for the best, especially being that feaster is taking the flames in a whole new direction.

This may be a wee bit hypocritical as i may have done it the odd time, but maybe instead of attacking my idea calling it "crap" and saying im "spewing BS" bring a reasonable arguement as to why im wrong. Also don't take this "crap" to heart as its clearly all opinionated.

[Carty]

Joker of course! He was the best center available in FA this season. Time will tell if letting him walk was a decent or ugly decision from our side of things.

To me, at this point in time, Olli was the BPA for both the cost, and risk involved...

This is Feasters second full term as GM. He hasn't had the cap jail handcuffing him for 2 summers now. I don't see the Fans being nearly as forgiving with him again because he has re-signed all the players he wanted to see return. It appears what we see now is pretty much what we are going to get for next season.

Well put... As for myself, after Feasters grandiose statements on the future plans for the team, he better hope he can deliver the goods he has promised...

[Flyerfan52]

olli is aging, its impossible to say but his play COULD hit a sharp decline at any time, and we have to believe if anyone is to notice anything management would be it, not us.

Gosh, so our other players aren't aging & their play COULDN'T decline?

points are fine and dandy but his goal totals are nothing spectacular for 4.5 or 5.25 million dollar player. And judging that the plan was for him iggy and tangs to be the first line he should be playing more of a goal scoring role as tangs fills the need of a playmaker. again with this if he had better luck this year he would have been near or past 30 goals with all the posts, but posts are really no better then 10 feet wide.

Yet his points are better then anyone penciled in @ center has @ that position.

Third: is the fact that the general consensus among the fans was for change, while center is a weak position i think most people are in agreeance that olli was not a #1 center and was hated on by a lot of people for his poor play in earlier years. Again that doesnt warrant trading him but it helps add reason.

The consensus was for change that improves the team rather then change for the sake of change.

Everyone seems to realize that Joker isn't a true #1C but many seem to believe he was our best 2C by a fair amount.

BTW, trading implies there was a return. There wasn't.

[gsp393]

Gosh, so our other players aren't aging & their play COULDN'T decline?

Yet his points are better then anyone penciled in @ center has @ that position.

The consensus was for change that improves the team rather then change for the sake of change.

Everyone seems to realize that Joker isn't a true #1C but many seem to believe he was our best 2C by a fair amount.

BTW, trading implies there was a return. There wasn't.

How many players on the flames are over 30? 4 How many 33 or over (ollis age)? only 3, 1 is a goalie 1 is our somewhat "untradeable" captain, and 1 is cory sarich a guy who will likely play what like 15 minutes a game on defence. Olli is expected to play over 15 first line forward minutes, lack of endurance is not an option in this position.

The arguement has nothing to do with how "proven" a player is. dont go off topic to refute my point.

How do you gaurentee any change in a sport is for the better? You don't, you typically play the odds and hope for the best. Maybe the odds arent that good, but playing the odds seem to be what sutter did and how did that work for us? As i said the move of joker is opinionated and before the season it is impossible to judge what will happen. But putting down our management staff and dwelling on how bad of a mistake this was isn't helping anything. Maybe try the glass half full routine before we see how much milk there really is.

oh and traded was a typo

[Carty]

How many players on the flames are over 30? 4 How many 33 or over (ollis age)? only 3, 1 is a goalie 1 is our somewhat "untradeable" captain, and 1 is cory sarich a guy who will likely play what like 15 minutes a game on defence. Olli is expected to play over 15 first line forward minutes, lack of endurance is not an option in this position.

The arguement has nothing to do with how "proven" a player is. dont go off topic to refute my point.

How do you gaurentee any change in a sport is for the better? You don't, you typically play the odds and hope for the best. Maybe the odds arent that good, but playing the odds seem to be what sutter did and how did that work for us? As i said the move of joker is opinionated and before the season it is impossible to judge what will happen. But putting down our management staff and dwelling on how bad of a mistake this was isn't helping anything. Maybe try the glass half full routine before we see how much milk there really is.

oh and traded was a typo

Despite the butchered language, I will reply...

Playing the odds, would include Joker in the plan unless a better proven C was in the works...

At this point, and we are running out of time, it does not seem to be in the works for an upgrade...

At this point, none of us can say what the glass is half full of...

[DirtyDeeds]

Ok well jokinen wasn't brought in as a 3 mill center or a 4.5 mill center he was brought in as a 5.25 mill center. During his time at 5.25 he played well below his salary hence why he got bumped down, at 3 mill he was a bargain there is no doubt about that. But at 4.5 mill i would say only this year did his entire game reflect that, this is the first year i found he pulled his weight defensively. It being a contract year also slows the hype.

So firstly in my opinion olli only played to his capabilities on his contract year after a huge pay drop, this is suspicious, doesnt warrant letting him go but it add to the reasons.

Second: olli is aging, its impossible to say but his play COULD hit a sharp decline at any time, and we have to believe if anyone is to notice anything management would be it, not us. To add to that Hartley is supposedly going to bring in some crazy conditioning which management MAY HAVE thought olli himself may not have been capable of.

Third: is the fact that the general consensus among the fans was for change, while center is a weak position i think most people are in agreeance that olli was not a #1 center and was hated on by a lot of people for his poor play in earlier years. Again that doesnt warrant trading him but it helps add reason.

Forth: points are fine and dandy but his goal totals are nothing spectacular for 4.5 or 5.25 million dollar player. And judging that the plan was for him iggy and tangs to be the first line he should be playing more of a goal scoring role as tangs fills the need of a playmaker. again with this if he had better luck this year he would have been near or past 30 goals with all the posts, but posts are really no better then 10 feet wide.

Lastly is that as said this year was a solid year by him, last year wasn't attrocious by any means but i didn't find him to be very solid defensively, also his +/- was terrible the last two years to add to why he may be the scapegoat.

Point is I see many reasons why olli wasn't retained, all of it being speculation no doubt, but regardless management seemed to decide to go a different direction and although some people may disagree i think its for the best, especially being that feaster is taking the flames in a whole new direction.

This may be a wee bit hypocritical as i may have done it the odd time, but maybe instead of attacking my idea calling it "crap" and saying im "spewing BS" bring a reasonable arguement as to why im wrong. Also don't take this "crap" to heart as its clearly all opinionated.

I won't call it crap but....

Clearly you haven't watch Joker play here since the first season he came here.

There is so much assumption in your points it boggles my mind.

The fact you couldn't argue with his improvement in production each year since he came here 3 years ago. the fact you had to resort to his initial salary before he was traded to NY only proves you didn't have much leg to stand on.

Things like he is over 30 so skills could be /likely in decline is a good example. Two of those other players(Iggy and Kipper) you mention are over 30 haven't slowed down yet either and both are 2 years older than Joker is.

In your point four your point he didn't work with Tangs and Iggy and we didn't need another playmaker when just about everyone and their dog knows Joker is a shooter.

You must have forgot that Iggy and Tangs didn't play with Joker until Backs got hurt and even then Butter broke up Tangs and Iggy to jump start Iggy with Joker and Glencross. Joker was doing just fine without Iggy in a 2way checking role alongside Glencross and <insert whoever> playing against the other teams top lines so Iggy and Tangs could have a bit easier competition to perform against. So when you talk about the flaws of Jokers negative +/- you could have considered that a bit right?

You don't know if Joker was given and offer, low balled, or not.

You were right about one thing, most of your points were opinionated and had few facts behind them.

[WILLDABEAST]

I won't call it crap but....

Clearly you haven't watch Joker play here since the first season he came here.

There is so much assumption in your points it boggles my mind.

The fact you couldn't argue with his improvement in production each year since he came here 3 years ago. the fact you had to resort to his initial salary before he was traded to NY only proves you didn't have much leg to stand on.

Things like he is over 30 so skills could be /likely in decline is a good example. Two of those other players(Iggy and Kipper) you mention are over 30 haven't slowed down yet either and both are 2 years older than Joker is.

In your point four your point he didn't work with Tangs and Iggy and we didn't need another playmaker when just about everyone and their dog knows Joker is a shooter.

You must have forgot that Iggy and Tangs didn't play with Joker until Backs got hurt and even then Butter broke up Tangs and Iggy to jump start Iggy with Joker and Glencross. Joker was doing just fine without Iggy in a 2way checking role alongside Glencross and <insert whoever> playing against the other teams top lines so Iggy and Tangs could have a bit easier competition to perform against. So when you talk about the flaws of Jokers negative +/- you could have considered that a bit right?

You don't know if Joker was given and offer, low balled, or not.

You were right about one thing, most of your points were opinionated and had few facts behind them.

Well said about jokinen there... Seems foolish for people to judge him off of numbers purely not considering linemates competition or zone starts

[s4xon]

2 names I am sick to death of reading about....Jokinen and Bouwmeester. Funny enough, these are the players that are linked to Calgary's need for a #1C. But as it stands, the topics have been beaten to death. I don't think there is any blood left.

[C_worthy]

Odd that C_W chooses to use the wording he will be 35 "next year not this year"to make him appear like he is old and aging.

- HE IS 33 YEARS OLD RIGHT NOW. If you want him to appear getting old then how about in 20 years he will be 53?

Hyperbole much?

I said he is going to be 35 during his current contract, so it is relevant. The point was simply that signing Jokinen isn't/wasn't a case of what he did last year, it is a case of what can be expected from him going forward? (and that might well be more than any of the other Flames' Cs can offer, but it's still the right question)

[A_Mysterious_Vistor]

You guys should just fired Feaster.

Letting Jokinen walk was stupid.

Your center ice position was bad enough wihtout a proven #2 but now that Jokinen is gone you don't have anyone who can play #1 and that is a huge hole to have.

You guys should have been in on Roy, and you probably could have gotten him too since the price was only Ott and Pardy.

All that is left is getting Stastny or else getting a 2nd line caliber center who could fill that 1st line hole.

[WILLDABEAST]

You guys should just fired Feaster.

Letting Jokinen walk was stupid.

Your center ice position was bad enough wihtout a proven #2 but now that Jokinen is gone you don't have anyone who can play #1 and that is a huge hole to have.

You guys should have been in on Roy, and you probably could have gotten him too since the price was only Ott and Pardy.

All that is left is getting Stastny or else getting a 2nd line caliber center who could fill that 1st line hole.

It was only ott and pardy cause buffalo valued ott alot... We dont have a steve ott type guy to trade so dont even act like we could have gotten roy... We dont have anything they need...

Colorado seems slightly more logical but unlikely

[stranger]

Im thinking Joker was Dutters guy.Joker had problems with Neuf,was let go but came back at a discount for Dutter after the Neuf trade.There was a mutual respect there.Jokers loyality was to Dutter,not the Flames.This is Kings,Feasters,and Wiesbrods team now,players are dealing with these guys. Like Burke in Toronto,Calgarys also got a US lawyer for a GM .Players will have to trust these guys to sign here.Unless they get big $$$$,with NMCs thrown in,and every other bell and whistle they can think of.That might change in time,but....One thing for sure,Flames fans know their stuff and will keep the mangements feet in the fire.There is a timeline and they are on the clock NOW.!! King included.

[Crzydrvr]

You guys should just fired Feaster.

Oh look, another hater. How's Steve working out for you?

Not everyone measures success by how many 1st overall picks they can get in a row.

[Carty]

Jokers loyality was to Dutter,not the Flames.

Not sure where you got this idea from...

[TrippinVdUb]

Not sure where you got this idea from...

Francis? or maybe Ecklund? sounds like there kind of speculation!

[stranger]

What happened to Jokers good friend and countryman Hagman after Sutter left.?Didnt Feasters gang waive him or find a way to dump his contract somehow.?I cant remember the details,but I think they sent to the minors till the Ducks saved him..Selanne and Koivou proberly vouched for him.. That stuff didnt go unnoticed by his fellow Finns.Bank on that.Whens Kippers contract up.?

[C_worthy]

What happened to Jokers good friend and countryman Hagman after Sutter left.?Didnt Feasters gang waive him or find a way to dump his contract somehow.?I cant remember the details,but they belittled him for sure. That stuff didnt go unnoticed by his fellow Finns.Bank on that.Whens Kippers contract up.?

That's exactly right - they did the same thing to him (putting him on waivers) that the OIlers did to Souray.

This is why no Canadian players want to play for the Oilers.

[Carty]

What happened to Jokers good friend and countryman Hagman after Sutter left.?Didnt Feasters gang waive him or find a way to dump his contract somehow.?I cant remember the details,but I think they sent to the minors till the Ducks saved him..Selanne and Koivou proberly vouched for him.. That stuff didnt go unnoticed by his fellow Finns.Bank on that.Whens Kippers contract up.?

The Ducks let him go UFA after the season was over, so apparently they didn't like him that much either...

But thanks for spewing nonsense in general... Laughter is good for the soul...

[Crzydrvr]

What happened to Jokers good friend and countryman Hagman after Sutter left.?Didnt Feasters gang waive him or find a way to dump his contract somehow.?I cant remember the details,but I think they sent to the minors till the Ducks saved him..Selanne and Koivou proberly vouched for him.. That stuff didnt go unnoticed by his fellow Finns.Bank on that.Whens Kippers contract up.?

At least we were nice enough to find him a new home, you guys just let Souray stew in the minors. Thanks for calling us out in an area we didn't have any problems in. The Flames have not had any problems finding players through other methods besides the draft, which is more than can be said of the Oilers.

Unfortunately, not everyone has a boy's club on their team, they're too busy trying to do business. Which is exactly what the NHL is. I guess the Oilers don't need to worry about that though, your kids can do arts and crafts together without a problem while adding more kids.

[MAC331]

The Mike Cammalleri at 1C talk has reached the crescendo of forgone conclusion.

I'm just wondering how everyone feels about it.

For me, he's our best sniping LW on a team short on goals. I'm concerned about his ability to play that sniping role while cast in a far more demanding defensive responsibility role.

I don't have great alternatives, just Stajan/Backlund, and I know they aren't 1C's, but neither is Cammalleri. Cervenka is an unknown wild card.

Thoughts/Alternatives?

Tanguay is a feeder, better to have two snipers to feed IMO. If there is a silver lining left over from Sutter, all of Tanguay, Cammalleri and even Iginla came back and played better defense last year. Maybe they learned something.

[gsp393]

Tanguay is a feeder, better to have two snipers to feed IMO. If there is a silver lining left over from Sutter, all of Tanguay, Cammalleri and even Iginla came back and played better defense last year. Maybe they learned something.

I actually think sutter did an awesome job teaching our guys to play d. pretty much everyone improved in that aspect. I think with some freedom a lot of these guys will have a wicked two way game. Who knows maybe we owe sutter an apology.