phoenix66
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Everything posted by phoenix66
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personally i say we sign Ramo to a 3 year.. hes proven he can handle a heavy workload , give us a chance to win more than he costs us a game. he proved last night Save % isn't a bible. he was flat out brilliant at times. Hes the perfect mix of a solid #1, who needs enough back up you can groom someone else..
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Exactly -- many teams have proven you dont win cups with Elite goalies, or need to . I see Crawford as Average, Niemi certainly is- Quick i would call elite, but inconsistent.. outside of the Hasek years, Detroit won cups with sub par goalies.. even Howard , i find less than average. teams that have put all their money in net typically dont go on cup runs. Now , do i think we are getting cup winning goaltending ? no .. but i also say if you put Ramo in Chicago, they are still a cup threat . he certainly didnt cost us the series against Anaheim. I Do believe tho , and agree that the all over disappointment is a reflection of the goalie coach.. isnt Sean Burke looking for work right now??
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Unfortunately its not hard to mess with a Goalie's head, and I too hope he gets it back , but I personally think hes mentally detached from Calgary and forgot what he did to get there. I believe he thought the battle was won at the end of the season with is 1 way kicking in , then they resigned Ramo, then he likely thought he was auto #3, but still immune from being sent down .. now hes back on the farm and hes dejected..probably already thinking ahead to just signing with another team after the season.. when what he should be doing is getting %$#@ed off and standing on his head At least with Ramo , we finally figured out, he needs a workload to thrive.. the "lose and youre out " probably messed with his head .. think he really turned the corner when he was asked if he wanted both games of a double header that time.. then backed it up
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While Ramo certainly didn't do much to steal the game, I certainly wouldn't pin the loss on him either. I'm actually quite happy we go on the road now, that was brutal. He would have needed 3 periods of highlight reel saves to give us a chance.
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Smart move. Just the fact that the Islanders claimed Berube off the Kings as possible insurance for Halak's injury says that no way Ortio would have cleared. So BT was smart not trying to sneak him through. I believe this ends with Hiller either being traded or exposed on waivers. If someone offers us a knock-it-out-of-the-park deal for Ramo , then I believe that's certainly an option too. But I firmly believe Hiller is the target . I give it 10 games to be settled. Lehner has looked shaky in Buffalo, Halak is uncertain, Toronto still hates their goaltending,.. some team will expose a need for a solid guy to carry some load
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hard to say , but at least now its in the team control, not being dictated by free agency or otherwise, Totally the best move
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Could have some merit, takes guts to throw your weight behind a guy with less than 20 NHL starts. Even Edmonton has Scrivens to bail out Talbot. Hiller could be a great fit and mentor to Jones. Not pushing for his trade, but for the right return its a deal id make
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This is perfect, good money, show me time. All 3 main goalies on same term now.we can decide by end of next season who we keep, and see how Gillies looks his first year as a pro. BT does it again!
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scratch Carolina-- they Got Eddie Lack
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San Jose just gave up a 1st to Boston for Martin Jones.. so Ramo not likely going there now
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If you can get him for 3.5, id be more inclined to trade Hiller, Sign Ramo . downside is your right he's about the best one on the market , but has never been a starter.. San jose is either trading for a Goalie, or will sign a UFA for too much money . Absolutely if we lose Ramo , id be all over this guy
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I think that the possible destinations for Ramo signing as a possible starter, with more money on the table dried up in the weekend Goalie carousel. Before the draft I could have seen Buffalo, Edmonton dropping starters money on the table to sign him , now that they both have addressed their needs, outside of possibly San Jose, the odds of Ramo staying with Calgary on a likely 3.5M/yr deal just sky-rocketed. it also just massively increased the odds of Ortio clearing waivers if we choose to send him down . The only way Ramo leaves is if a) we inexplicably dont even offer him a contract or some team offers way more than we are willing to pay Outside of San Jose , no team is now in need of s starter, and those haven't anointed one yet , wont be throwing big money for a guy to compete for the job . Ramo has it good here, deserves a raise, but the net is his to continue to win .He doesnt want a guarantee, but He wont go anywhere he doesn't have the opportunity to win the starters job
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Im actually thinking its Hiller as odd man out . I believe ramo signs for no more than 3-3.5, any of these Goaltenders will end up costing more and Treliving is already on record as saying hes conscious of the cost to resign our players. Under this scenario Hiller becomes a very expensive future backup . the domino will become what it costs to re-sign ramo , beause next season you have to be aware of Hiller becoming UFA.. no guarantee we have a new #1 in place.. just based on hartleys trust , its easy to tell hes more comfortable running Ramo as 31 if has to . to trade for Talbot it would be easy to send Hiller the other way , hes a one year contract and gives the team a quality backup in case they dont have the depth to ride their current 3rd stringer for a stretch
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Very true! At the end of the day I have confidence things will be done right. Ramo will either be signed, or not signed if what hes able to get UFA makes no sense to us Ortio will either make, or not make the team out of camp based on his merit, not his contract Ditto for Hiller.. The best possible tandem available to us will be in net:) Wasnt that long ago it was Kipper or nothing, we've come a long way!
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Unless your Buffalo , and during your tank process you ended up with another team's 3rd stringer as your #1 guy
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it was a bridge technically , but anyone signing him is signing his potential still.. and if he believes in his abilities then he also believes his best years are still to come. due to that , i think you could get him 3 yrs, 4.5-5 mill.. if he does really well, then his best payday is coming after .. in 5 years hes likely going to be declining , in which case a long term deal could leave $ on the table because of that . that being said , I'd totally take a 5 yr 23 mill . i believe that would be a bargain , AND keep him tradeable if Ortio and Gillies are the future as planned
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i think you also have to take emotion out of the equation and look at results. At the end of the day , playoffs trump regular season. I like Hiller, id have no qualms going with the same tandem , and I love what he brings to the mix...but... yes he was the goalie of note against Vancouver, but he was pulled in the deciding game.. Ramo got the job done.. Ramo was lights out against Anaheim after mopping up for Hiller in game 1(pulled again ).. and took us to OT in the knockout game against , honestly , a superior team. I totally believe the Job Ortio is trying to take is Hiller's
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The more I have thought about this, the more I recall the team motto that made us successful this year, "Always earned, never given" Many, myself included, have assumed Joni's contract automatically gives him a spot next season. That would fly in the face of this motto. Because he has yet to earn it. Letting Ramo walk, says bad things to the team after his playoff run, similarly for Hiller. I do believe what we see now more than ever is all 3 goalies in camp, if Ortio earns it, he stays. If he plays poorly he will clear waivers, , with the unwritten preseason rule that sees teams leave waivers alone it seems. Its possible Ramo gets a ufa offer we dont feel like matching, possible we get a very good offer to trade Hiller..but I believe in the meantime our goal is to sign Ramo, and let the 2 best options come out of camp " earned"
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just as a footnote addition -- if you look at the teams we need to beat , or the teams we are striving to overtake, outside of playoffs: Anaheim: Ramo 1-0 Hiller 1(OT)-2 St Louis: Ramo no starts Hiller 0-3 Chicago: No starts Hiller 1-2 Los Angeles:Ramo no starts 3-1 so while Hiller may have seen the starts against the big boys, his record wasnt sparking .. and while im the first to admit team play makes a difference, we need someone that steals those games.. Ramo more often that not has that next level capability.. But it still comes down to Ortio-- if we believe he is the next one and ready , then Hiller would get the soft back up mop up details and i believe excel at it... if we believe he is just back up material at least for now, then Ramo is the better choice for trying to steal wins from the leagues best we are chasing
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Its the stats you dont see. 3 less starts and Ramo faced nearly the same amount of shots, id say many of the quality variety. Hiller has a knack of early soft goals, Ramo made it past the 1st period more often. Hartley clearly has more faith/trust in Ramo.. and id have to go back and reconfirm , but im pretty sure Ramo faced more of the higher quality opposition. Hiller is what he is.. Ramo is younger and still getting better , the fact they are even close to being equal gives Ramo the edge IMO Dont get me wrong , id love to have the same set up as last year , i really like Hiller .. but we dont have the luxury of allowing Ortio to eventually take one out..we only get one shot at this , and we need to get it right .
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I can definitely see your thinking when you put it that way . My only fear is that Green is already a $5.25 M hit and will get that or more as UFA..If we could keep him in that same range(which is identical to Wideman ) then I'd be for it, if the return for Wideman made sense. Only downside is a team willing to give us the RW we want in exchange , why wouldnt they just keep their RW and sign Green themselves? and doing one first doesn't guarantee you the other
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Absolutely you overpay , im thinkin 5-6.6 mill per season gets it done.. 2-3 years.. maybe 7 for Jackman or equal to what Gio gets..but its money .. its off the books in short order before we need it. Schenn will likely cost you a 1st round pick , or more.. add a decent prospect or 2. I believe we have names already in the pipe who will be as good or better than Schenn is now, and you''l probably lose at least one of them to get him . by just spending $ now, you get the best of all worlds, keep your picks and your kids, stock your own shelf and fill the gap created by Sutter
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This bears putting in the proper thread, .. just listened to a great discussion on FAN960 regarding our upcoming goalie situation, and they made an awsome point that this is a very critical decision that needs to be made, and could either move the franchise forward or set us back 3 years. It boils down to Ortio.. the Flames need to be 100% SURE of what they have in Ortio, and on top of that need to be RIGHT.If you can be both , we will be fine. Joni is either (A) the next coming and #1 of our goaltenders, or ( the second coming of Curtis McIlhenney If we believe he is in fact the Next one, then we also need to believe he will be #1 by Seasons end, in which case, it really does not matter who stays or who goes of the other .. either will be a solid backup to Joni If we believe this , and we are wrong .. then we have situation where Brad Thiessen is our back up and a legitimate #1 option was sent away either by trade or walked for free If we believe hes not ready, or not the heir apparent to the throne, then you sign ramo ,and plan to send him down and risk waivers chances are if we aren't convinced, other teams aren't either and he clears If he doesnt clear and we are right , then he is Curtis M.. and so what if he doesnt clear and we're wrong , hes the next Martin St Louis we get to talk about for the next 20 years So i guess it comes down to , What is Joni Ortio?? i personally believe hes our next #1 but will be taken out by Gillies For this season , if ends up running with it , then I think Hiller is a better backup Goalie... if Ortio is the Backup , then he should be backup to Ramo Most ideal and realistic in my mind is hes ready for NHL but not for #1.. so best case scenario is to trade Hiller and get Ramo signed
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I think trading for a D that fully fits our needs is too costly . We have enough coming down the pipe that to almost certainly give up picks and prospects is detrimental . i think we are in a position to use our cap space to sign proper free agents to short enough deals that even if you overpay a bit , by the time we need that money to sign our own kids theyre off the books and someone else has graduated to take the spots. If we learned anything from Anaheim, its that we can be beaten up and pushed around, we lack the Solid, Defensive shut down and painful defenseman... not talking fighters or goons, but the dmen that hurt you when you come into our end.. eg: a younger Robyn Regehr, or what Dion could have/should have been. Green, as suggested, i would say is too much money to just simply give us what we have in Wideman Bartkowski, i do like.. forgot about him earlier I disagree that FB was unproductive in the Anaheim series.. he's shut down , provides offensive spark, can skate, pass and is something we dont have.. add to that , he's been the D leader and responsible for grooming their kids. Jackman might be unrealistic, pretty sure he wants to resign in St Louis, but would be an awesome addition to our d core Bartkowski is young enough to give longer term to, but in the case case of FB, or Jackman, 2-3 yrs good $, and you fill the gap between the NHL and the farm, and it only costs you cap space
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Agreed.. in a perfect world we go into next season with all 3 into camp and let the players decide, as it is we are almost forced into handing Ortio the #2 spot.. im also hoping it comes into play that there is a window we can send Ortio down before waivers kick in , it just means he doesn't get a full shot in camp (12 days i believe?) In a way you can hang this on BT.. he is the one that signed Ortio and didn't resign Ramo earlier, but we don't know if he tried or not. The quotes from Ramo yesterday make it sound like he's definitely wanting to see what RFA shows him, but at the same time not demanding a starting job , just the opportunity to win it My gut tells me he walks, the only way he doesnt is if we trade Hiller by draft day..but its a catch 22, you almost need to sign him first before you trade Hiller.. we're almost painted into a corner in having to let Ramo walk. Its potentially BT's first egg on his face because if Hiller/Ortio dont carry it next year , and Ramo shines for somebody , its a situation BT created I wouldnt call Seto and Raymond "mistakes" , just insurance we ended up not needing .. if Jooris and Johnny had not won spots (which was widely expected before camp), both those players would have made big upgrades over last years roster I actually can see Raymond being another Stajan, he has speed, can be good defensively , and is younger less expensive version . Could make Stajan Expendable. Obviously hed need to learn the role, just as Stajan did
