phoenix66
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Pre calgary kipper is the perfect example of a goalie people here label as "non nhl quality" He was 5-14 his final season in san jose with an .879 sv%, #3 on a depth chart and barely adequate in spot duty befire that, likely playing against lesser opponents. The only reason we got him was to buy time for Turek to get healthy. If mclennan wasnt playing with a broken sternum we never would have aquired him. But then he fit our system perfectly..right place right time. Berra has stolen points for us. Hes undefeated in shootouts. The number of off games where you can say he cost us points can be countednon one hand. As I write this, Ryan Miller is stinking the joint out in his st louis debut..why? Likely because its a new system and unfamiliar players in front of him My point is, expecrations arw way too high where our goalies are concerned. You could be running a tandem of miller and lundqvist right now and we are likely in the same position with close to the same record I dont disagree that ramo may be the better of the 2 right now, but even thst is likely because he has a year of nhl behind him. To say that our tenders dont give us a chance to win and continuously cost us our games is a complete fallacy and just proves people have no clue about what they are seeing and are expecting too much. We're obviously watching different games For his 1st nhl start Ortio looked really good, I think hes the starter of the future. I hope he gets 1 or 2 more before he goes back, Our tandem Is just fine, with ortio and gillies in development we are doing it right.to give up any resources, players or picks towards thst pisition before we address the team in front of them would be a huge mistake
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Perhaps you dont remember mike Vernon. The guy would allow one softie per game as a rule, hence why he didnt have many shutouts.Patrick roy allowed them from behind the opposition net on occasion.Luongo cant win the big one because bad goals is what he does best. A 27 yr old goaltender is the equivalent of a 22yr old forward. .aka just coming into their prime. Its also the same age mikka kiprusoff was when he came to calgary. He was just coming into his prime 28-34 kipper was pretty memorable. Not saying this kid is the same caliber, just saying ....once again...our bar is a little high thanks to kipper.some people wont be happy until we put a nightly game stealer in there and its not a realistic expectation. Hes come 500 miles from his early season form to now in his adaption to the north American game and was dominant where he came from.to expect that progression to continue is not a stretch
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I see we're still hung up on the quality of our goalies again...theres a few holes in your analysis. Let me throw 5 names at you: - Henrik Lundqvist - Ryan Miller - Pekka Rinne(healthy) - Jonathon Quick - Roberto Luongo ( yes I know we all hate the guy but theres a reason hes on here..give me a moment) What do these 5 guys have in common? Out of 29 other teams, meaning 58 roster goaltenders..these are the ONLY 5 that would be worth addibg o our roster over the 2 we got.Why? Because they single handedly win games regardless of the team in front of them. The rest fit a system.Carey price would suck on this team..as would crawford, reimer, schneider, etc..etc... Luongo msy be famous for losing the big ones, but ill give credit where its due. He thrives on lots of shots snd can keep gsmes closer than they deserve to be We currently have 2 NHL QUALITY tenders.both have won more games single handedly for us than they have cost us and its only their first nhl season! Theyre only going to get better.! Unless you can score one of those top 5 guys then youre not going to imorove the system, in fact you'll only ruin whomever is brought in and spawn a "whats wrong with X thread. What needs to happen is this: 1. Lock up Berra minimum one more year to match ramo and let next season determine #1 status 2. Run with Ortio one more year as big guy in abbotsford..love the kid, great future but needs to keep growing into the role. Call him up now permanent and he either rots on the bench or gets in over his head 3. Focus on building the D. Until such time as we are the next St Louis, we have just as good a goaltending duo as any other team. We can make pkayoffs with this pair. When we discuss whether or not we can win a cup with them ill be happy to reevaluate that then.right now its moot. If you seriously believe berra walks for nothing, give your head a shake If what you suggested were sn option (trade for a dependable backup and cut Berra loose) why waste assets? We got one, his name is Joey macdonald
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Sadly it was done with cgi. .. http://www.everyjoe.com/2014/01/28/sports/gif-ilya-ezhov-backflip-goalie-ska-st-petersburg-khl/
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Jmac is the most likely to be moved if there is a deal, but good chance too they want to give roy a few games at the ahl level to evaluate him a bit more. Hes definitely playing great in Alaska, so time to step him up a bit
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He's easily our top prospect. Gillies stock took a beating at the juniors. Not to say he won't bounce back from it, but he was playing with and against world class talent and looked out of place. To be fair, ortio didnt look stellar his first try in the ahl, but just saying he made lots of people say "uh oh" in that tournament. Likely cost himself a pro contract this season. Hell need to pick it up if he wants one next year. Im sure he will get one then though.
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Thank you!! Someone that actually gets it! There is actually nothing wrong with Ramo and Berra. They are adapting quickly to the nhl game and in many games give us a chance to win. San jose could easily have won 6-2 if not for Ramo. We are spoiled in calgary and its unfair to any goaltender we could bring in. We believe its a goalies job to steal lots of wins to be considered "an nhl goalie" A goalies style needs to match the style of the team.in calgarys case, that goalie needs to be an acrobat to handle multi chances, screened shots and quick passes due to the porous defense Kipper came at a time when we were a strong defensive team, he fit our style and got to see every shot, rarely faced a second and it clicked. We have come to believe no wins=bad goaltending, not true, look north for proof of that You could put ramo and /or Berra in Boston, st louis, chicago , detroit or san jose..and they probably win a cup. They have both shown me they are good enough. Furthermore, I would not trade them for Jimmy Howard, Niemi, Halak,Crawford or Rask straight up.....ok maybe Rask. Why? Because every single one of those goalies would be getting lit up here as much if not more than our current 2.and this board would have a new thread called "what's wrong with X" while we debate why this stellar goalie can no longer win games. About the only goalie in this league,I would rather see back there is a healthy Pekka Rinne. Just because hes proven he can steal games for a bad team We should be signing Berra to a 2 year extension. Running with both through end of next season, trading one for prospects and or 2015 draft picks and promoting ortio to back up at that time. Anything wed be willing to give up for a "real" goalie should be going towards D
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I would disagree. Unless he gets a shot at a bona fide all star, theres no goalie out there who would be a game changer over what we have. Agreed, ramo was less than sharp last night..but so was Niemi.he had a bad game, oh well. Until we hit a point where the 5 guys on the ice can compensate for a goalies off night we are just going to have to run with the status quo, because thats a sign right now that we need great goaltending just to be in a game which is totally unrealistic. Like I said earlier, you could have miller and lundqvist back there and I don't think our record would be much different Burke was correct in his recent interview with Eric Francis, his focus is on defense right now.
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There is nothing wrong with our current goaltenders. Sure, berra hasnt been stealing wins, but he certainly hasnt been costing us games either. This is the real, post kipper world. Keep an eye up in edmonton on scrivens.. super stats in La..hes gonna be, im betting, only slightly better than dubnyk and the stats he bribgs in are going to tank. The goalies are making too many 2nd, 3rd, and sometimes 4th saves, being hung out to dry way too often. The reason we cough up games in the 3rd is because our defense is playing minutes beyond their skill level. This is exactly where we miss Jbo. Im not saying berra has been lights out himself, but he certainly can't be taking the blame for losses either. Goaltending is just fine..we need to work on defense next. Somewhere we need a 1-2 that would be 1-2 anywhere, not a basic 3-6 getting 1-2 minutes. Maybe that comes in the draft, maybe free agency or maybe burke swings a deal
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right now our goal tending is the lone bright spot of this current goal drought nightmare. Berra doesn't get run support, no difference between 1-0 or 10-0 . I think if we were wanting to tank, Joey would have already been here
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Gillies showing at the WJC may have just set him back a year...per the Calgary Herald: NO DECISION ON GILLIES — According to Brian Burke, Calgary may not try to sign G Jon Gillies after his splendid sophomore year at Providence. “I know there’s a lot of speculation that he’s going to be asked to turn pro after the season,” the Flames boss told the Providence Journal, “but we have not in fact made any determination yet . . . I met with him (Monday) and told him that.”
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It definitely wasn't his best game.I dont want any one to take this as bashing, as I believe Gillies is the real deal and deserving of all the hype he's received to date, but in this tournament he faced many players he will face in the nhl. most of these players are at the same stage of development, and he looked very human. This is whats wrong with anointing your goalie prospects years ahead of their arrival. Its one thing to dominate your college foes,but you just dont know what you got until they're in your net. I have belief he will progress, likely a case of nerves in his first real taste of world class talent, but he certainly didn't look like the messiah some people paint him as.
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But I though Ramo and Berra were the senior citizens? Wasnt it the big knock that they were past their prime coming to the nhl at such an old age?
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I think brutal is taking it too far. In each goalies case their first ten games contained one, maybe two "bad" games that cost us a chance to win.but both were adequate in some cases stellar. Now that they have settled in its consistent night in night out. Im not thinking a long term #1 starters salary, im thinking more a 2 year bridge. 2.5 is a reasonable 2 year salary. We get him signed to that, now we could dangle Ramo as trade bait to some on hard goalie times.if you don't find it he stays, but it gives you the option. If you pull it off, now you can bring in ortio next year as a proper back up.by the time that 2 year is up, youll know where gillies is at. If berra continues to improve at the rate he has been, somebody gives him 4mill+ after this season.right now you could likely get him for 5mill over 2.thats cheap for your starter.
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What we should be concerned with now, is Berra's Ufa status next season. I believe hes earned himself an extension already. Question now, is how long do you wait and what do you give him. You can be safe in saying he gets at least what Ramo is getting
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What I mean is looking for new goalies is no longer necessary, it would serve no purpose. Both goalies are giving us a chance to win every night. If they start regressing then fine, but as of right now we have our goaltending where it needs to be and they keep getting better. Id be fully comfortable dumping jmac for anything we can get now.
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Yup, totally agree. Its safe to say at this point that our goaltending is no longer a question mark. Solid tending night in night out regardless of who gets the nod. Time to work on the d from all 5 skaters
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Its an evolution of learning. Differenr positions mature at different rates.if you tossed a team of nothing but rookies on the nice, the girwards would get up to speed first..then the dmen..then the goaltender. Hence why a shut down goalie masks bad defense. If you played a chl team against chicago night after night, , theyd score goals, but lose badly. The forwards have an obligation to help the defense, then the defense has an obligation to help the goaltending. Our goalies are now consistently allowing 2 or less goals, and getting better. Goaltending is no longer an issue. I have no issues with running with these 2. The issue now is too many quality scoring chances, and our own offense. I think the issue we have with getting out of our zone, etc.. is inexperience, and fatigue. We have no gas left when teams kick it up gear.we lack a shut down dman ( like a bouwmeester,or a young Robin Regehr) and our forwards need to become essentially like 3 more dmen on the ice, at least until we start scoring more. Those of us who remember the young guns, remember a team that had low scoring, many 1 goal games. Scoring centered around iggy. The problem was we needed to score first to win. We could hold a lead, but we were notorious for getting scored on early and often. We had to basically shut them out to win. Along came kipper whos biggest contribution was getting us out of the first periods. The biggest issue was scoring. After iggys line we had none, but our dgame and work ethic was solid. This team cant hold leads, we do have adequate spread out scoring, but 8ur d gets overworked from forwards not doing their part, and they are basically too young and inexperienced to handle it. They in turn hang the goalies out to dry. The goalies stop most but cant stop them all So..the verdict is, focus needs to be on improving the dmen.in the meantime, all forwards need to be defensive, we cant afford a single minded scoring mentality because we cant compensate (hence why sven is currently in abbotsford).we can open it up, but then we lose 6-5. Part of this is going to come thru development, others need to be moved out
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Since December 1 the flames have the #2 ranked goaltending in the league.most of us on this board have agreed we should wait until after 10-15 starts to start judging them..well here we are and they are both rounding into form. Im still seeing adjustments needed from the European game, e.g.:getting too far from the net at the sides due to the difference in net depth or high shots going in from distance due to the shots and releases from nhl players being faster..but they are both miles ahead of game 1 for both I see it being said we're not making the big saves..but we are. Ramo made some beauties against new York but he didn't make the last one. It could have easily been 6-3 after regulation.he got us to round 7 of the shootout.How many times did killer get us to extra shooters? This year we've been deep 3 times On almost every late goal loss or tie I'll show you a dman that got burned. Russell against Chicago , butler the other night. The biggest issue isn't the goalies. Its dman going past their acceptable minutes and making bonehead plays from being too tired. Its not a coincidence our goaltending seemingly got better with gio back combined with smid eating minutes now. Im pretty sure we could string together 10 straight shutouts and we'd still have people lamenting our "non nhl quality goaltending" 25-27 is typically when a goaltender comes into his prime..to consider that old is ludacris
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Ramo has been solid, but now he has to work on not letting in 30 foot goals.. one cost him a shutout, the one last night gave Carolina a point. but both have come miles since the start of the season .. looking pretty good for the next 50 games
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Go with Berra, but as I mentioned above, shorten the strings. Ramo was starting to fade in his, just as Berra was part way through his last. 3, 4 games then back to Ramo
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At the flames level, that's 4 top nhl quality starts in a row by Berra and Ramo..aside from about 1 min against Colorado. So what have we learned? Lets keep the strings to 4 games max now, and you'll see more consistent development. Once you start getting 4 solid ones you can 7ncrese it and see who can handle the load. Im sure having gio back hasnt hurt either.
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With OKC in 6 games, he's 2-3, with a .888 sv%, 3.42 GAA, not exactly lighting it up for minor league stats., but hes still making the pro adjustment, so not expecting stellar yet either.
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I completely agree both need to get equal playing time..Ramo is not being allowed to work into a groove. But, both have little things they need to improve on. Berra overplays the puck, ramo needs to cover post to post better..etc.all things that will be improved upon as time goes on. If they do another 10-1 split after tonight then we know hartley has nade up his mind on who #1 is. Im not convinced that malarchuk is the right goalie coach. Hes good, dont get me wrong, but the biggest reason for kippers stellar play in calgary, was david marcoux. You can see the start of his decline began when he was let go.
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Calgary has essentially only had 2 in their history (vernon, kipper)..Aside from the hasek years, Detroit made a habit of winning cups with very average goaltending..chicago has won 2 cups with average goaltending. On the flipside, go ask buffalo, new york rangers, and to a lesser degree Vancouver what good having all star goaltending has been. (Or the 2006-2012 flames) My point being..I guarantee you, you put either ramo or berra in chicago, or boston, or heck even pittsburgh..we wouldnt be having this discussion.As long as we have a green defense, and this rebuild is on, you could have Lundqvist or miller back there and I doubt either would have a save% over .900 We have late game breakdowns not just because the goalie isnt slamming the door. But because we have certain dmen playing 20+ minutes who shouldn't be playing over 12 and teams are getting quality scoring chances we werent giving them earlier. We start out in top gear and fade..top teams pace and then switch gears when we do. Its part of the process, like it or not.
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