cross16

Good points. Chicago is another club i would add to the list that were patient in accumulating assets. I guess to add context to my original point and my criticism of the Flames ownership group. From everything i've seen/read/heard the Flames owners will tolerate 1 bad season but the mandate is to get back into the playoffs the next year. They are not okay with multiple losing seasons in order to accumulate the assets or being patient with it taking upwards of 3 seasons to get back into contention. That, IMO, is on the impatient side of things and can be detrimental to a franchise long term if your goal is to win and win on a consistent basis. I don't think the Flames owner are content to to slow play a rebuild like some of those other clubs i listed did. So this is where you get into a bit of debate of want quantifies a rebuild. Where I will agree is that no ownership group is going to okay the type of rebuild where you have the "however long it takes" attitude and while I have criticism of the Flames owners and do believe they should be more patient, i don't believe that has anything to do with what has led to today. The Flames not finding a number one center during their rebuild has more to do with bad luck and foreseen circumstances than it does anything else.

Well i guess it depends on how you define rebuild but in recent memory alone I can think of Toronto, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Rangers and now the Red Wings that have all either publicly declared themselves in a rebuild or actions speak to a patient rebuild as opposed to wanting to get back into the playoffs every year (as members of the Flames have). In the past Tampa is another franchise to was willing to do a more patient rebuild (ie be more patient and not chase big deals to get into the playoffs the next year)

While likely wind up into a debate on semantics but I would agree I don't think the owners are "satisfied" or are simply in the business of making money. I am with Peeps though that they are just impatient and not willing to see multiple losing seasons and the potential of losing fans. I've said this before, but I think the 04 run had a big impact on Murray Edwards. if you have a good core you can get lucky with the right acquisition (Kipper) you can have a run. They are not willing to pass that up for years of being out of the playoffs and having no chance. My take anyway.

Bump of an old thread but I thought it made more sense that starting a new one. Conroy joined the fan 960 the other day and made some interesting comments in regards to Bennett. A summary: - Drafted Sam as a center but have never had a coach who wanted to play him there. Says it's been frustrating. - Sam had expressed frustration to the club. Said he wanted to play center and he wanted a set role. Conroy agreed that have not done this, they just put him all over the place. - Conroy was a referee for the intra squad games, and commented how you could see it on Sam's face how excited he was to be at center and in a role. - Says they were, obviously, very happy with his playoff in the playoffs. Felt he has some things to improve on the faceoff dot with details but they are anxious to see if he can improve upon them if given the season to do it. Mixed reviews on those comments. Not a good look at the organization handled their highest ever draft pick this way, but positive in the sense that it looks like they really want to give Sam Bennett a shot at center next year. That's exciting.

I put that on Ward personally and another factor for me in this mental strength argument. Ward installed a collapse down, take away the middle of the ice strategy that IMO is a very poor fit with how the roster is constructed. It worked well against a depleted WPG team but it played right into the Stars favor and they exploited it. I will give Ward an out here though. When you take over mid season you do not have an opportunity to truly install your own system, program etc. I don't like how they were playing but I can't put that all on Ward necessarily without speaking to him about it. but I also don't think the Flames were poor defensively against the Stars, nor do i think that was a key reason they lost the series.

I am a strong advocate that whatever you want to do with the coach, this is mostly a player problem. If the plan is to keep the players and think a new coach will fix everything that is wrong IMO. However, i would also disagree that coaching is not an issue here or that Ward is a good option going forward. While I thikn the mental approach/strenght of your group comes from the players I do think the coach has an impact here. Coaches who are strong with in game adjustments and bench management can have an impact on the game and Game 6 is a prime example. Veteran coach in Rick Bowness calls a time out to settle his guys in a calm manor, while Geoff Ward pulls off a panic style move by pulling his goalie. Bowness and the Stars made sublte adjustments to their style and deployment all series where Ward made very little. Ward also kept his a line out for 3 mins at the end of the game. I think all of those things play into the mental strength and approach of your team but while I see flaws in his management it's also not fair to pin it all on him. this has been building for years too. it just makes me not believe he is the guy going forward. However as I've said, and still believe, if you cannot get one of the top guys (or ownership won't pay for them) I don't see value in rolling the dice on another up and comer or anything. So either get a veteran with good experience or keep ward, even though i don't see anything in him other than a slightly below avg NHL head coach.

I'm late on this, on holidays, but this is been something I have been thinking about in the context of firing Treliving. I'll start by saying there are merits to both and I won't take an aggressive "keep Treliving" stance. I like him and would keep him, and with 2 years on his deal I doubt he's going anywhere, but I also understand that some of those who do want him gone have fair points. However, my big question there is how are you going to get better? As you mentioned, and what I would agree is the more fair critique of Treliving, is too many high picks have been dealt. In particular the trades of Hamonic, Elliott and Lazar stand out as all moves that were not great at the time and turned out even worse. Because this club has been very good at drafting under Treliving I think it's fair to expect those picks would right now be adding to the young talent wave of Dube, mang, Andersson, Bennett, Lindholm, Valimaki, and giving the Flames options to improve their team. Instead they are stuck with a core that can't seem to get it done, and limited options for getting better. That being said, I'm to the point where I don't put that all on Treliving. I think what has been made pretty clear by now is the Flames ownership group has a mandate of chasing the cup and being "good" every year. They've never really preached patience and there have been countless times where Flames employees, from Sutter to Feaster to Burke to Treliving, have made public comments about being good every year. When Treliving became the GM he took over a poor roster and a even poorer farm system so really the only way he had to make his team better in short order was to deal picks or sign UFAs. Long story short, if you want to fire Treliving you can but i'm not sure you are going to get a different experience from the next guy. So for me you only fire Treliving for 1 of 2 reasons, 1 - you want someone more respects in league circles or 2 - you want a better talent evaluator. I think the odds of improving over Treliving in those categories is very small.

I did notice this last week. Rumors are Ruzicka is being transferred. I 100% agree it makes sense and Flames should do it with as many prospects as they can.

I'm at the same place with Ward i've been since the end of the season. I do expect he'll be the permanent coach but I don't think it's worth being excited over. I do think Ward got out coached in this series and his mistakes were a factor but at the same time this is a player problem for sure and i'm not going to even hint that I think a new coach or coaching is the biggest issue they have. there are things I like about Ward: He's positive, a good communicator, seems to empower his players, willing to adapt, willing to experiment and i think a real good PP coach. However, what I don't like: Passive defensive system (i'll give him an out here because I don't know if this is opinion driven or personnel driven), I really worry about his accountability with players (we saw the same mistakes repeated again and again), and he is one of the poorest in game NHL coaches i've seen. He appears really over his head when it comes to managing the game and he's made so many critical mistakes (Talbot pull, keeping Bennett-Lindholm out for 3 min at the end of the game) and they add up. He'll probably remain the coach but I think the Flames would be wise to try and find an upgrade. I don't think he's terrible but I also think he's nothing special and probably at best, would be an avg to below avg NHL coach.

I understand people's feelings and arguments that Treliving needs to go, many of them are fair and valid. I'm still a fan and I still believe strongly he should stay in the role because while the playoffs have sucked under his tenure, the overall direction of the organization is very positive. They draft, develop and scout significantly better tan they have in decades, they are attractive to good hockey people, players/free agents, and are well respected in the circles. Your putting a lot of that at risk to change direction with a new GM so unless they have a rock start candidate, and i'm not seeing one, I don't see it as worth the risk. If there was a stellar candidate out there I could maybe get behind it but I don't see one, unless it's Conroy. That's the one person I would consider if behind the scenes he is proving his worth and showing potential than maybe that makes sense but to go external I don't think is the way to go. I think the need a core change but they have to be very cautious how they go about this. The tendency sometimes is to start making trades for the sake of change or trades to 'shake things up" and I think that's a dangerous way to go. The risk I see for the Flames is they have some solid young talent up coming (Tkachuk, Dube, Mang, Bennett, Lindholm, young d core, Valimaki etc) but not a lot of high end talent. So if you trade your high end talent for a shake up, and don't replace it you'll fall out of the playoffs IMO. That may be ok because then it becomes a "well get lottery picks" conversation which i could understand but I honestly believe that the Flames would remain competitive with the talent they have. If they want to move Gaudreau/Monahan etc (and i don't disagree with the reasons why) they have to get it right, or else I see them heading to the most awkward status of all. Not bad enough for lottery picks but not good enough for the playoffs. The place where this organization seems to love to live. Long winded way of me saying that yes you need big changes (anytime you touch your core its a big change) but it's going to be extremely tricky to do it.

I think the fan base has the right to be upset about the pick, it was a questionable ruling for me too. but for how the playoffs worked? ya sorry you can cry me a river on that one. Vegas made quick and easy work of Chicago so I don't really have sympathy for them drawing a bad match-up because it really wasn't. Chicago is not a very good team.

An interesting take and conclusion on the Lucic - Neal swap from an Edmonton writer. https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/did-edmonton-oilers-really-win-the-milan-lucic-for-james-neal-trade-one-year-out-some-sober-second-thought/

Kulak has been solid in Montreal yes. He does play top 4 over there, but it's a bit below avg doing it. But again keep this in mind: Gio Brodie Hanifin Valimaki Kylington Was, and still is, the current LS depth on the Flames. You can't keep everyone and sometimes you need to give players a chance to play elsewhere.

30% of the Oilers cap next year is tied up in buyouts, Lucic, James Neal, Kassian, Russell and Darnell Nurse. Never mind Koskinen at 4.5 million, which is bad, but not as egregious as the others. Good luck with that one Holland... Contrast that with the Flames who have 10% of their cap next tied up in buyouts and Lucic (who I consider to be their only bad deal). Hilarious that Edm media wants to point the finger at McDavid/Drasaitl and ignore that gross incompetence of cap management.

I would not point at McDavid and Draistil as anywhere near the Oilers biggest problems. For sure there are parts of their game they can improve, and I would call Draistl a little overrated ( he is not one of the top 10-15 players in the league IMO) but pointing the finger there I think is wrong, especially in a team game. I think the problem lies here: Nugent-Hopkins, Ryan "A" Neal, James UFA Athanasiou, Andreas Chiasson, Alex A Kassian, Zack UFA Khaira, Jujhar Archibald, Josh UFA Haas, Gaëtan UFA Nygård, Joakim UFA Sheahan, Riley UFA Yamamoto, Kailer Ennis, Tyler UFA Russell, Patrick 4 of those 13 players need to play in their top 6 and 1 of them is an actual top 6 caliber player (Yamamoto who doesn't even have a full season under his belt), and most of those guys would play 4th line on other teams. Nuge would normally qualify but in true Oiler fashion he is put in a poor position and thus doesn't really fit what they need. It is a staggering drop off in talent, especially for a team that has picked in the top 10 in every draft but 1 since 2009 including 5 in the top 5.

Tallon seems to have a good eye for talent but just lacks the management side of the business. Made mistakes in Chicago with RFAs and then gave out some really questionable deals in Florida. That Bobrovsky deal is really going to sting the Panthers for a long time and was a mistake the second it was signed. Although i do find it interesting that the owner oks giving out that but contract and hiring a expensive coach in Quenville and now wants to cut money.

I can’t think of a pro sports franchise in recent memory that has done less with what they’ve been gifted than the Oilers. it’s almost amazing at this point.

I thought the Flames, in terms of their game plan and structure, were well prepared for the Jets style of play. That speaks well to the coaching staff as well as the adjustments they made during the series and to the PP. that being said I also agree that this series didn’t present the challenge you were looking for. Even with Schiefelle and Laine In the lineup the Jets are not a very good team imo with a huge weakness on D. Take those 2 out and the series was right there for the taking. Flames really has no adversity in the series and until they do or play a higher wiling opponent I’m not willing to give them or the staff too much credit. having said that as I’ve said for a while I do think he will be the permanent coach of this team. The players seem to really like him as shown here

I mean I will take it.... But this makes no sense. Pretty questionable ruling from the NHL.

Happy to see we share a similar love affair with Drysdale Cyrdrvr. I think his upside is huge and i'm a bit surprised he's not talked about as a top 4 lock.

Rumor building that Babcock is the front runner for Seattle. That makes sense on a number of levels. Laviolette and Gallant in the mix apparently. https://www.nhltraderumors.me/2020/07/rumor-mike-babcock-to-coach-seattle.html?fbclid=IwAR3z6I723vlTeZ8AjAYbbcpyRifA-3In8Pld21t6aPuZYqAe8e0DpRX-zCw&m=1

Pretty well done all around. Name, color scheme, jerseys and even their intro videos. Pretty impressive launch. I was not a fan of the original expansion plans but both Seattle and Vegas have nailed it. It's been really modern, cool and broken the traditional molds in multiple ways that are breathing new life into the league.

I knew it was coming but it is sad. I too never watched hockey, played a few games though, in there but been there for concerts, shows or presentation and always thought it was a really cool building especially because they did a great job celebrating the history of the building and the city. Was always a cool experience to be there and especially to play games. I will miss it.

the numbers are not great on Hamonic as a Flame there is no question,especially this year. I don’t think it’s quite into “dragging around dead weight” category but Hanifins numbers do look better away from hamonic but it’s also not drastic either. with Hanifin it’s more what I see with my eyes and I just don’t see anything that makes me think a breakout is coming. I still like him and think he’s a slightly above avg top 4 dman so it’s not like this has to be negative. The only rationale I’ve had for putting Hanifin out there is can you capitalize on some hype. If some think there is another gear there they may overpay but if that is not the case then trading him probably isn’t worth it.

I'm not as optimistic they can move Kylington so I think he may actually stick around as a depth or 7th dman. He may be in a deal as a package but on his own I don't see any value given his wavier status next year but I do agree they view him as being passed. Not a bad option to keep him for depth as you won't want Mackey sitting in the pressbox. I don't see Hanifin becoming available unless the deal really blew them away or if it was a top 4 RS dman. I think between them not knowing what they have in Mackey yet, Valimaki coming off a major injury, Gio's age, and the fact that some still think Hanifin could break out, I think they will hold onto him. While it is good to be excited about Mackey I take that comment to refer to his NHL readiness and less about his upside. I think the upside of Mackey is still very much a question and until they know more they won't take that big of a risk on their D by moving Hanifin. I'd like to see Hanifin shopped but I don't suspect it's the way the Flames will go.