GDT - Flames @ Golden Knights; 12-December-2023; 8pm MDT; SN all channels

[travel_dude]

Take the point in your pocket and get the extra.

[medatswhoP]

Be nice to win one in this rink.

[medatswhoP]

Poor coverage from Weegar

[travel_dude]

I hate this rink as much as the Honda Centre.

Same ugly fans.

[travel_dude]

Just now, medatswhoP said:

Poor coverage from Weegar

 

Just a weak play at the blueline, with 2 guys within a foot of one another.

If it's not a clean play, you have two free guys waiting to go the other way.

[Thebrewcrew]

Bad teams find ways to was to lose games.

 

Wolf needs to stop that GWG if he wants to steal a job.

[travel_dude]

Between Hanifin's lazy play lately and the lack of a true top pairing and 2 D that were waived without any takers, is it a wonder we can defend?  We are victims of our own mistakes, not the other teams outplaying us.  We stink entirely in some games, but mostly we have individual stinkatude.

[flames for life]

I find that Lind Holm does not look happy.  He plays a solid game, but more often than not, he seems to be the only one on that line giving any effort.  I am also not happy with Mangepane's play.  If he heads to the slot he can be dangerous but he is spending way too much time running along the boards and getting squeezed out or dumped.  Dube needs to go.

[conundrumed]

7 hours ago, flames for life said:

I find that Lind Holm does not look happy.  He plays a solid game, but more often than not, he seems to be the only one on that line giving any effort.  I am also not happy with Mangepane's play.  If he heads to the slot he can be dangerous but he is spending way too much time running along the boards and getting squeezed out or dumped.  Dube needs to go.

Lindholm doesn't really drive the play much and has had every winger that we have. He's a solid 2C, but not a chance that he's a big money 1C. Mangiapane can't be the slot guy on a line with Sharangovich and Lindholm, in that order. Mangiapane's shot is a waffle by comparison. Especially to Sharangovich's, who has the heaviest shot on the entire roster. Yet plays the point on the PP, which would be laughable if it weren't so sad. The entire PP should revolve around feeding Sharangovich one-timers. The PP has a world of issues that won't change without getting a couple of players off of it. Replace Lindholm with Backlund and Huberdeau with either Rosie, Pospisil or almost anyone else. Huberdeau wants to play 80% finesse and 20% blood and guts. The league is the polar opposite, he isn't changing that. I rarely see him skating hard out of the O-zone, hence he's a minus-monster.

[travel_dude]

46 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Lindholm doesn't really drive the play much and has had every winger that we have. He's a solid 2C, but not a chance that he's a big money 1C. Mangiapane can't be the slot guy on a line with Sharangovich and Lindholm, in that order. Mangiapane's shot is a waffle by comparison. Especially to Sharangovich's, who has the heaviest shot on the entire roster. Yet plays the point on the PP, which would be laughable if it weren't so sad. The entire PP should revolve around feeding Sharangovich one-timers. The PP has a world of issues that won't change without getting a couple of players off of it. Replace Lindholm with Backlund and Huberdeau with either Rosie, Pospisil or almost anyone else. Huberdeau wants to play 80% finesse and 20% blood and guts. The league is the polar opposite, he isn't changing that. I rarely see him skating hard out of the O-zone, hence he's a minus-monster.

 

Huberdeau is dragging down a Backlund line.  He's never been that good defensively, yet we are deploying him to be that.  He's not helping Backlund and Coleman run up 80 points, because they are not offense first.  Mangiapane fits them because he battles the boards the same way.  And he knows when to sneak into the slot.  That line used to create offense from transition, now it struggles to get control or gives it right back with sloppy passes to dangerous spots.  If Backlund and Coleman are entering the zone, Huberdeau is last man in.  

 

I suggested moving Zary and Rosie up to the top PP unit, because Huberdeau is too easy to figure out.  He's stagnant on the boards, so any pass (always pass) is going to go back or through layers.  Or they just overload him till he coughs it up.  The league has no idea what Zary is gonna do and Ruzicka is a threat to actually hit the net, when he doesn't make an a great decision on the boards.  He's not heavy on the body, but like Zary, he has a good hockey IQ.

 

As far as 5v5, you might as well move Huberdeau to Lindholm and Govich's line.  Shelter them.  Govich is gonna get passes and he does something with it.  They tried the two together long ago, but Govich was just getting settled.  

 

The D coaching is troubling.  I don't know if it's laziness or only being effective when we are down a goal and they only worry about offense.  I've counted at least 2 goals in the last few games that were a direct result of Hanifin coasting back and being the 3rd man back on a lax zone entry or possession loss.  I've seen the other D skating their guts out to get back, only to see Hanifin coasting.  The details in the D zone are lost.  Covering nobody and not protecting the house.  So in two one goal games, Hanifin has cost us a goal in each.  He's not the only problem, just the one guy that we are able to trade and doesn't want to be here.

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Lindholm doesn't really drive the play much and has had every winger that we have. He's a solid 2C, but not a chance that he's a big money 1C. Mangiapane can't be the slot guy on a line with Sharangovich and Lindholm, in that order. Mangiapane's shot is a waffle by comparison. Especially to Sharangovich's, who has the heaviest shot on the entire roster. Yet plays the point on the PP, which would be laughable if it weren't so sad. The entire PP should revolve around feeding Sharangovich one-timers. The PP has a world of issues that won't change without getting a couple of players off of it. Replace Lindholm with Backlund and Huberdeau with either Rosie, Pospisil or almost anyone else. Huberdeau wants to play 80% finesse and 20% blood and guts. The league is the polar opposite, he isn't changing that. I rarely see him skating hard out of the O-zone, hence he's a minus-monster.

I would feed Lindholm one-timers too. He's killer in that left slot area. I don't understand why they haven't used him there instead of how they use them. 
 

if it were me, I'd be shifting/moving Lindholm and Sharangovich around the zone to set them up for that. If they can have

good movement they can both slide in and whoever is in position when the puck gets there can take the shot. Two years ago Lindholm had about 3-4 goals just from that left slot area as a right shot, and for some reason they never kept with it with any consistency. 

[conundrumed]

In the OT, I can't help but lay the blame on Kadri. Twice in about 15 seconds he turned the puck over by needlessly trying to force the play to Sharangovich. Didn't work the first force, got the puck back and did the exact same thing. Possession is everything in 3-on-3, and he immediately turned the puck over the 2 times he had it. Tunnel vision.

[travel_dude]

19 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

In the OT, I can't help but lay the blame on Kadri. Twice in about 15 seconds he turned the puck over by needlessly trying to force the play to Sharangovich. Didn't work the first force, got the puck back and did the exact same thing. Possession is everything in 3-on-3, and he immediately turned the puck over the 2 times he had it. Tunnel vision.

 

We use F that don't really get this.  Backlund will sometimes just dump it when he needs to get off.  I don't get the entering on the boards under presure.  That never works even on 5v5.  I think he was expecting to draw two guys in and flip it to Govich, but I can't be certain.

 

The problem for me is not that we turned it over in OT and that Kadri was stupid.  He made up for it in the rest of the game.  We were up 1-0, let them tie it up.  2-1 and its then 2-2.  3-2 starting the 3rd and we allow 2.  We continually are going the right way and then forget to play the other end.

 

If you remember last year where Sutter benched Pelletier, it was a similar play with Kadri.

Pelletier got burned coming back, but he didn't start the fire.

[travel_dude]

So Govich's or Rango's new nickname is Sharky?

[DirtyDeeds]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:00 PM, conundrumed said:

Yup. I mean nation wide it's being carried on all SN channels. I took the autofill on the title and forgot to edit team.lol

Then Gyazo decided 10 screen captures were enough for a day so cut me off from adding stats data, which I learned CapFriendly does quite well on their matchup page.

But gyazo got tired of my act...I kind of screwed up by playing around.🤪

https://news.sportsinteraction.com/nhl/matchup/flames-vs-golden-knights-odds-121223-176803

Try a total uninstall and reinstalling Gyazo.  I have not run into the 10 pic limit yet but have had some problems with getting it to capture a screen section. I did pay for gyazo about 3 years ago but they seem to have lost that when transferring it to my new laptop.

[DirtyDeeds]

22 hours ago, taz89 said:

Interesting enough, 3 straight games now the Flames have scored first...don't believe though they have won those.  Maybe it is better to play catch up?

What I don't understand is the Flames can bring it when down 1 or 2 goals going into the 3rd period but they stutter when trying to hold on to a lead going into the 3rd.

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

What I don't understand is the Flames can bring it when down 1 or 2 goals going into the 3rd period but they stutter when trying to hold on to a lead going into the 3rd.

 

The years blend a bit together.  Was last year the one that we won almost every game when leading after two and most when leading after one?  Or was that the year before.  I know last year we for sure lost the majority of games once we trailed.

 

Cross suggests a poorly coached D and terrible goalie (Vladar).  I tend to see more of the former.  What is not obvious is whether it's the D doing weird things or the coach suggesting the box up and leave room for shots.  Huska coached the D last year, so he would be aware.  Perhaps its zone not being understood or executed properly.

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

The years blend a bit together.  Was last year the one that we won almost every game when leading after two and most when leading after one?  Or was that the year before.  I know last year we for sure lost the majority of games once we trailed.

 

Cross suggests a poorly coached D and terrible goalie (Vladar).  I tend to see more of the former.  What is not obvious is whether it's the D doing weird things or the coach suggesting the box up and leave room for shots.  Huska coached the D last year, so he would be aware.  Perhaps its zone not being understood or executed properly.

i think it was the year before we were really goods with the leads.

[conundrumed]

7 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

What I don't understand is the Flames can bring it when down 1 or 2 goals going into the 3rd period but they stutter when trying to hold on to a lead going into the 3rd.

It's because they have to change into playing higher risk play with 1 Dman pinching into the O-zone when they have possession or on the rush. It's kind of one of those things that will go one way or the other, you'll comeback, or they'll score again. G is everything in that situation because you're risking odd man rushes going the other way. I watch Detroit have to do this too often, but it does add a lot of excitement. Our goalies have been great at giving us a chance this year.

Our "normal" structural play is lacking sets of forwards that compliment each other imo. You want a puck carrier/distributor, a hard board player and a finisher/shot threat. Combinations of other play/D-responsible. For me, I think we lack fwds that are really good when the puck is on their stick. Zary is, Backlund next, maybe Sharangovich, but that's about it. Sharangovich wants the puck moving faster, I always see it, but he doesn't have those linemates to accomplish it.

For me, I'd like to see Zary getting some C time while we wait for Pelletier, then make those 3 a line. It'll kind of lack a strong board player, but, say, a line with DeBrincat-Kane on the wings has always lacked that also. They just rely on possession.

It's funny, all the people that complained about trading down in the draft are awfully quiet now due to Zary. They can still harp about Jankowski, but I doubt anyone liked that idea, and it's a distant memory-lesson in how not to hire a GM. That whole Feaster-Weisbrod thing was embarrassing. Laurel and Hardy playing Einstein amongst hundreds, if not thousands, of professionals. That stretched my limits as a Flames fan with extended family/friends in the profession. The laughing-stock era.

How's that for topic-leaping? lol

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

It's because they have to change into playing higher risk play with 1 Dman pinching into the O-zone when they have possession or on the rush. It's kind of one of those things that will go one way or the other, you'll comeback, or they'll score again. G is everything in that situation because you're risking odd man rushes going the other way. I watch Detroit have to do this too often, but it does add a lot of excitement. Our goalies have been great at giving us a chance this year.

Our "normal" structural play is lacking sets of forwards that compliment each other imo. You want a puck carrier/distributor, a hard board player and a finisher/shot threat. Combinations of other play/D-responsible. For me, I think we lack fwds that are really good when the puck is on their stick. Zary is, Backlund next, maybe Sharangovich, but that's about it. Sharangovich wants the puck moving faster, I always see it, but he doesn't have those linemates to accomplish it.

For me, I'd like to see Zary getting some C time while we wait for Pelletier, then make those 3 a line. It'll kind of lack a strong board player, but, say, a line with DeBrincat-Kane on the wings has always lacked that also. They just rely on possession.

It's funny, all the people that complained about trading down in the draft are awfully quiet now due to Zary. They can still harp about Jankowski, but I doubt anyone liked that idea, and it's a distant memory-lesson in how not to hire a GM. That whole Feaster-Weisbrod thing was embarrassing. Laurel and Hardy playing Einstein amongst hundreds, if not thousands, of professionals. That stretched my limits as a Flames fan with extended family/friends in the profession. The laughing-stock era.

How's that for topic-leaping? lol

I am one of those that complained. I like that we took the time to let him develop. It's good to see and glad he is turning heads. 
 

since our scouting is good, let's go trade the vets and draft more of these guys. It's how I want to do things. Draft. So I guess in a sense, we traded down to get more picks so I should have been happy.
 

A lot of my thinking was that I wanted a D. We lack in D, but now see we also needed Zary. Wanted best chance at a #2 or #3 D. I get that most of the time we need to draft in the top 5 -10 for that. 

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, conundrumed said:

It's because they have to change into playing higher risk play with 1 Dman pinching into the O-zone when they have possession or on the rush. It's kind of one of those things that will go one way or the other, you'll comeback, or they'll score again. G is everything in that situation because you're risking odd man rushes going the other way. I watch Detroit have to do this too often, but it does add a lot of excitement. Our goalies have been great at giving us a chance this year.

Our "normal" structural play is lacking sets of forwards that compliment each other imo. You want a puck carrier/distributor, a hard board player and a finisher/shot threat. Combinations of other play/D-responsible. For me, I think we lack fwds that are really good when the puck is on their stick. Zary is, Backlund next, maybe Sharangovich, but that's about it. Sharangovich wants the puck moving faster, I always see it, but he doesn't have those linemates to accomplish it.

For me, I'd like to see Zary getting some C time while we wait for Pelletier, then make those 3 a line. It'll kind of lack a strong board player, but, say, a line with DeBrincat-Kane on the wings has always lacked that also. They just rely on possession.

It's funny, all the people that complained about trading down in the draft are awfully quiet now due to Zary. They can still harp about Jankowski, but I doubt anyone liked that idea, and it's a distant memory-lesson in how not to hire a GM. That whole Feaster-Weisbrod thing was embarrassing. Laurel and Hardy playing Einstein amongst hundreds, if not thousands, of professionals. That stretched my limits as a Flames fan with extended family/friends in the profession. The laughing-stock era.

How's that for topic-leaping? lol

 

Zary was one the most discussed players in our draft range, even before we traded down.

I never had a problem with it.  But anyway, it doesn't matter since we got him now.

 

I think we tried Zary-Lindholm-Sharky but it didn't work out in the coach's mind.

Lindholm would be the problem with that setup.

Zary is not yet faceoff ready.  20% success rate in 19 draws so far.

I know you are not a big Kadri fan, but he makes the most sense for now between the two.

 

Best win/loss rates among players taking more than just a few drafts:

Lindholm

Backlund

Dube

Ruzicka

Kadri

 

To me, the biggest problems are the top and Backlund lines.

Huberdeau sucks as a 2 way player.

Lindholm is not driving play.

Backlund is being forced to compensate for Huberdeau.

Sharky is the only one on that line to shoot effectively.

 

Simplest solution is to bump Mangiapane down to the Backlund line.

I don't have an answer to Lindholm.

 

Thinking out of the box:

Zary-Kadri-Lindholm (strong side draws to Lindholm)

Huberdeau-Ruzicka-Sharangovich

Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman

Greer-Dube-Pospisil

 

I think with Huberdeau, you have to find guys that can anticipate play.

Huberdeau used to be good at placement, but nobody gets what he is doing.

You soften the competition and give them preferred starts.

 

 

[conundrumed]

19 hours ago, robrob74 said:

since our scouting is good

I think this is something that gets too much hairy eyeball, as I believe that our scouting is very good. There will be times of Stromgren and Ronni's of players that fans will not agree with, but it's a part of trying to forecast fresh 18yos. So the parlay between thinking you're watching a finished product (not a positive) vs having the skills and needing further development makes the waters murky.

I'm sad about the Ronni situation because, although he isn't pointing, I definitely saw a play driver that is solid at both ends. When I saw him live, it's a wonder he ended with no points, yet he's the one that creates the O from their D-zone into the O-zone and drives the transitions. Outright exceptional PKer.

Can't look past that heavy allegation though, so that's a deal-breaker unless he's proven unmistakeably innocent.

Another solid draft in '23. I don't love the 2nd or 4th rd picks, but that's why scouts yell at each other.lol