2022 Player Grades

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

A team that won the cup at some point went through a rebuild.

Therefore, a rebuild means you win a cup.

Was WAS in a rebuild or did they suck for a long time.

Was Kucherov and Point a rebuild result or a good drafting.

Binnington?

Which was a rebuild MacKinnon or Rantanen or Landeskog or Byram?

 

pretty simple answer.  to all of the above.  

 

Both.

 

I have heard that winning a cup is hard.    So you need everything going your way.   That usually means a rebuild, and a rebuild done right.  Over several years.

 

Go check with Washington, ask them if they'd give their cup back if it meant not sucking a few years prior, and let me know how it goes.

[conundrumed]

12 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

pretty simple answer.  to all of the above.  

 

Both.

 

I have heard that winning a cup is hard.    So you need everything going your way.   That usually means a rebuild, and a rebuild done right.  Over several years.

 

Go check with Washington, ask them if they'd give their cup back if it meant not sucking a few years prior, and let me know how it goes.

You're really simplifying it. It isn't tanking for high picks, it really is getting lucky.

Tampa can't do it without getting Kucherov and Point in later rounds. An excellent return on drouin to shore the D. Guys like Maroon, Coleman, Verhaege etc get them over the hump. Sure you get Stamkos and Hedman as high picks, but everything else helped a lot more.

Just look north, why hasn't that worked. Everyone really seems to over simplify it.

You need a great bottom 6 to win championships. You need a goalie going all-world regardless of name recognition.

This has always been the way. In our '04 run, Yelle was the most important cog imho. A bunch of Dmen that didn't give a Blockchain that they're B & C listers.

A ton has to go right. It's not because you tanked for high picks, that stuff is a microcosm compared to how everything else has to play out.

Keep an eye on the Wings. It isn't the Seider-Raymond show, it's what they're adding that makes them becoming dangerous if they can pull it together.

Sure, it's a rebuild, but it isn't on the backs of high picks, it's more what they can surround them with.

Show me a past cup winner and why they won due to top 10 picks, I'll show you the rest of the roster being equally important.

You don't have to tank, but you definitely need to be savvy and really lucky that it works out.

Yzerman walked back to the D and basically said, sorry everyone, it's going to be awhile.

Having made the playoffs umpteen years in a row and Holland being told that agenda remains by ownership, the team was completely in the Satoshi Nakamototer from terrible contracts.

Really over-simplifying where we're at, because we aren't there right now.

Give it a chance, for the love of god. Is everyone in a big race to be Anaheim?

The priority from my perspective right now is fix the 4th line and bottom pairing. Not the top 6 fwds.

The Cogliano's and Glendenning's of the league on cheap contracts are worth their weight in gold imo.

 

[robrob74]

48 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

You're really simplifying it. It isn't tanking for high picks, it really is getting lucky.

Tampa can't do it without getting Kucherov and Point in later rounds. An excellent return on drouin to shore the D. Guys like Maroon, Coleman, Verhaege etc get them over the hump. Sure you get Stamkos and Hedman as high picks, but everything else helped a lot more.

Just look north, why hasn't that worked. Everyone really seems to over simplify it.

You need a great bottom 6 to win championships. You need a goalie going all-world regardless of name recognition.

This has always been the way. In our '04 run, Yelle was the most important cog imho. A bunch of Dmen that didn't give a Blockchain that they're B & C listers.

A ton has to go right. It's not because you tanked for high picks, that stuff is a microcosm compared to how everything else has to play out.

Keep an eye on the Wings. It isn't the Seider-Raymond show, it's what they're adding that makes them becoming dangerous if they can pull it together.

Sure, it's a rebuild, but it isn't on the backs of high picks, it's more what they can surround them with.

Show me a past cup winner and why they won due to top 10 picks, I'll show you the rest of the roster being equally important.

You don't have to tank, but you definitely need to be savvy and really lucky that it works out.

Yzerman walked back to the D and basically said, sorry everyone, it's going to be awhile.

Having made the playoffs umpteen years in a row and Holland being told that agenda remains by ownership, the team was completely in the Satoshi Nakamototer from terrible contracts.

Really over-simplifying where we're at, because we aren't there right now.

Give it a chance, for the love of god. Is everyone in a big race to be Anaheim?

The priority from my perspective right now is fix the 4th line and bottom pairing. Not the top 6 fwds.

The Cogliano's and Glendenning's of the league on cheap contracts are worth their weight in gold imo.

 

 

that is why I said that drafting away from the top 5 in the draft is just as important. Imagine drafting top 5 in every round. If first overall, 33rd is nearly a first rounder. 
 

We know the draft is a crapshoot, but we aren't saying draft horribly beyond that. That's what teams that languish in rebuilds do, draft horribly beyond and yes, drafted in years that might have been bad top years compared to other drafts. It is why scouting is imperative. 
 

has the flames amateur scouting improved enough? Or has the development gotten better? 
 

I'm not advocating to tank and then not do any of the other stuff. 
 

edmontons problem was they couldn't draft beyond the top picks. It is also possible some first overalls need development time, which could be why Yakupov failed. RNH was a very good player, but they failed to build through depth drafting. The same goes with Hall. They did get Eberle but he's a complimentary scorer. But again, they gave up the wrong players when building. They had Petry etc... 

i don't know who else.

 

Imagine rebuilding in Mangiapane's year? 
I doubt we draft hindsight BPA, but we wouldn't know...

 

we started with Andersson and Kylington, and what would it look like with a top5 pick? Who would the flames top 5 BPA be? Would their picks be clouded by media consensus BPA or have their own? 
 

that also means we would have a higher pick in the second round... Aho? McDavid, Eichel, Marner... Aho, Andersson, Mangiapane... assuming we'd get those extra 2nd rounders etc... those are what ifs but that's one year. I just picked Mangiapane's Year because it's a year we drafted well in later rounds, so an example of why depth drafting is important. 
 

Right now I think of our own drafted players, Backlund could be our openly drafted first rounder.  I think I counted 5 first rounders in our roster now. Hubie was 3rd overall his year, so I guess that's our rebuild/tank.
 

 

[sak22]

Washington won their cup 14 years after bottoming out and moving out the old core of Jagr, Gonchar, Bondra, Lang.  The bottoming out process was about 3 drafts which they got Ovechkin, Backstrom and Alzner, and became a contender in 2009 and won 9 years later.  I don't know how we judge this, Washington is harder to compare to Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA or Colorado, because they did have Ovechkin and Backstrom who were key pieces of the rebuild, but took over a decade and the entire team around them had changed from 2009 to when they won.  Players like Kuznetsov, Carlson and Holtby weren't drafted by the team until they became a playoff team, and other key pieces like Oshie were acquired via trade years later.  I think you could argue almost every team is a product of a rebuild, how would people define the Ducks?  None of their own high picks were part of winning a cup, and was practically a completely different team in 2007 than they were when they lost the cup in 2003, should it be considered a rebuild if you change out 15+ players in a 4 year period even without bottoming out (yes they did draft Bobby Ryan #2, but that was pure luck and Ryan had zero impact on the cup), but the core was drastically shifted in Anaheim with Selanne and Niedermayer who were UFA's and Pronger through trade, you could add Getzlaf and Perry but both those guys were drafted in the playoff team portion of the draft and the year of their cup run.

 

Rebuilds are inevitable, players don't play forever and nowadays many don't want to play in the same city for their entire career.  I just don't get the notion of cheering them on, I can accept losing when it is part of the natural cycle, what I don't get is the notion of we lost a few first and 2nd rounds so lets blow it up, and its funny because the people who called for a 2019 blowup are now using Washington as a basis for a successful rebuild, that was 10 years to make it out of the 2nd round for them.  

[sak22]

Just now, robrob74 said:

 

 

we started with Andersson and Kylington, and what would it look like with a top5 pick? Who would the flames top 5 BPA be? Would their picks be clouded by media consensus BPA or have their own? 

#5 in that year was Noah Hanifin, currently a Flame.

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Washington won their cup 14 years after bottoming out and moving out the old core of Jagr, Gonchar, Bondra, Lang.  The bottoming out process was about 3 drafts which they got Ovechkin, Backstrom and Alzner, and became a contender in 2009 and won 9 years later.  I don't know how we judge this, Washington is harder to compare to Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA or Colorado, because they did have Ovechkin and Backstrom who were key pieces of the rebuild, but took over a decade and the entire team around them had changed from 2009 to when they won.  Players like Kuznetsov, Carlson and Holtby weren't drafted by the team until they became a playoff team, and other key pieces like Oshie were acquired via trade years later.  I think you could argue almost every team is a product of a rebuild, how would people define the Ducks?  None of their own high picks were part of winning a cup, and was practically a completely different team in 2007 than they were when they lost the cup in 2003, should it be considered a rebuild if you change out 15+ players in a 4 year period even without bottoming out (yes they did draft Bobby Ryan #2, but that was pure luck and Ryan had zero impact on the cup), but the core was drastically shifted in Anaheim with Selanne and Niedermayer who were UFA's and Pronger through trade, you could add Getzlaf and Perry but both those guys were drafted in the playoff team portion of the draft and the year of their cup run.

 

Rebuilds are inevitable, players don't play forever and nowadays many don't want to play in the same city for their entire career.  I just don't get the notion of cheering them on, I can accept losing when it is part of the natural cycle, what I don't get is the notion of we lost a few first and 2nd rounds so lets blow it up, and its funny because the people who called for a 2019 blowup are now using Washington as a basis for a successful rebuild, that was 10 years to make it out of the 2nd round for them.  

I get it's about cups. The one thing about Washington for me is being a contender during that time . I get rebuilds don't necessarily win you a cup, but for me, and this will totally kill my argument, but I just want the hope that they can contend. I never felt the flames were a contender the last 5 years. I want a team that can look like a danger to go deep. 
 

looking at the 2016 draft, I can see your comment about how some of the better players ended up in the mid first instead of top 5.

 

to be fair. I really don't think we will be threats to win for the next 10 years and we'd need some serious drafting in the next few drafts to gain the players to get there. So I don't see it happening.

[jjgallow]

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

You're really simplifying it.

 

thank you

 

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

It isn't tanking for high picks, it really is getting lucky.

 

sure it is lol

 

 

6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Give it a chance, for the love of god.

 

I'm sorry lol.  You must have thought the 2011 start date on my profile was my first time here.   This is just the oldest username I have that Bigchief didn't ban