2021 Calgary Flames NHL Draft

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Probably should have said it differently.

The trades you suggest don't work for one of the teams involved.

 

The power is not with Buffalo.

They lose Eichel if they can;t make him happy.

They can't just ask BT to hand over Gaudreau for a pick.

If they want him, they have to pay since we don't need to trade with them.

 

Let me sum it up.

Buffalo needs star power to keep Eichel.

If they lose him, no good going after Gaudreau.

If they keep him by going after Gaudreau, they have to outbid about 15 teams with something other tha Eichel.

 

yeah I understand what you mean, I probably could have worded my response better too lol.

 

The Buffalo situation is far to fluid for us, or even Them, to know what they will need.   I'm going off an assumption that they will in fact trade Eichel.  What this means is that they will essentially have a different core.   Will that core need Gaudreau?  We have no idea.   The other possibility is Seattle, imho there is not a huge difference between the top ...even...5 picks this year.    Again, Seattle, way too early to know what they'll want.   And so on.  After that, yes there's some teams where we could more predictably design a trade if we wanted.

[cross16]

16 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Trues.  And it's vague like, some kids need to improve edgework. Others need top end speed.  Others need to improve acceleration.  Although the link I posted did get more specific.  They say Sillinger has top end speed and agility in the offensively zone but acceleration needs work.  So maybe that comes with adding bulk and general NHL conditioning.

 

That said, I would be concerned about bad skating when the player is small.  Having a lower center of gravity, you want smaller player to display elite edgework and cut backs.  You want that to naturally shine in skating and if not, then that's a problem.

 

Same goes to bigger players who need to get stronger.  If you are 6'-4" in Juniors and you aren't bowling over guys and establishing strength dominance, then that's a concern.

 

Agree, there is so much to it you just can't discount or reject a prospect because someone might think he has skating concerns. Just depends on what it is. 

 

The other flip side is sometimes prospects who can flat out flat in junior don't translate well either. I look at guys like Kylington and Angelo Esposito that were 2 phenomenal skaters in junior but one never made it in the NHL and the other looks like a tweener because while they are incredible skaters they don't have the hockey sense to keep up to their skating ability. 

 

Great skaters flop and sometimes people who are knocked for their skating turn it around. IMO you can't draw conclusions on either. 

[robrob74]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

yeah I understand what you mean, I probably could have worded my response better too lol.

 

The Buffalo situation is far to fluid for us, or even Them, to know what they will need.   I'm going off an assumption that they will in fact trade Eichel.  What this means is that they will essentially have a different core.   Will that core need Gaudreau?  We have no idea.   The other possibility is Seattle, imho there is not a huge difference between the top ...even...5 picks this year.    Again, Seattle, way too early to know what they'll want.   And so on.  After that, yes there's some teams where we could more predictably design a trade if we wanted.

 

from what I’ve heard on the radio here in Van and in Calgary, the Sabres want young. Guys like Tkachuk are too old and the flames best prospects are too low compared to other teams in the mix. Maybe our 1st rounder is too high too.

 

Does Guys like Dube, Zary, Pelletier get it done? 
 

they’re probably going tank mode for next year too, to ensure the get a top 2 pick then. It really makes more sense than getting guys who are older. They’re going to age out before the new core gets of age to make a difference. Maybe not though. But I think that’s the theory going around.

 

I just don’t think the Flames are getting Eichel.

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

from what I’ve heard on the radio here in Van and in Calgary, the Sabres want young. Guys like Tkachuk are too old and the flames best prospects are too low compared to other teams in the mix. Maybe our 1st rounder is too high too.

 

Does Guys like Dube, Zary, Pelletier get it done? 
 

they’re probably going tank mode for next year too, to ensure the get a top 2 pick then. It really makes more sense than getting guys who are older. They’re going to age out before the new core gets of age to make a difference. Maybe not though. But I think that’s the theory going around.

 

I just don’t think the Flames are getting Eichel.

 

 

Well in that case I would agree with @travel_dude that they won't be interested in anything but our picks and we shouldn't be interested in giving those up.   Although Dube, Zary, Pelletier would all be fine imho.  I wouldn't give up Wolf, Valimaki, or Andersson but the rest I would.   It Still makes me wonder if they'll want to do a pick swap because they just don't need Own Power and Dahlin on the same team to be honest.   It flat out doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

Honestly though I'd be fine with any first round pick in this draft higher or lower.    Seattle's pick is just as good, anything higher than our pick I'd be targetting Brandt or Wallstedt, anything lower I'd be targetting Ceulemans, Cossa, Coronato, or one of the other D.

 

I am both excited for and scared for Friday lol

[jjgallow]

 

 

https://ca.yahoo.com/sports/news/nhl-rumors-flames-forward-matthew-tkachuk-may-want-out-of-calgary-191616457.html

 

 

I would be Soooo furious if we traded our way to getting older lol.

 

I'd hoped we'd get to keep Tkachuk and these rumors are probably false but he's certainly not untouchable.

 

What would be a good deal with St. Louis?

 

Not Tarasenko.

 

Two first rounders maybe?    Not sure anyone on their team or prospects is that interesting, except maybe Matt Kessel

[travel_dude]

52 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

https://ca.yahoo.com/sports/news/nhl-rumors-flames-forward-matthew-tkachuk-may-want-out-of-calgary-191616457.html

 

 

I would be Soooo furious if we traded our way to getting older lol.

 

I'd hoped we'd get to keep Tkachuk and these rumors are probably false but he's certainly not untouchable.

 

What would be a good deal with St. Louis?

 

Not Tarasenko.

 

Two first rounders maybe?    Not sure anyone on their team or prospects is that interesting, except maybe Matt Kessel

 

Both the rumors and suggested returns are pipe dreams.

Tank?

Tank and Kyrou?

No thanks.

 

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

I am both excited for and scared for Friday lol

 

Friday?  You mean in July, after the expansion draft?

You sounded like you were going to lose sleep tomorrow night.

[jjgallow]

26 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Both the rumors and suggested returns are pipe dreams.

Tank?

Tank and Kyrou?

No thanks.

 

 

Friday?  You mean in July, after the expansion draft?

You sounded like you were going to lose sleep tomorrow night.

 

What?  another month?   yeah I thought it was friday.

 

yeesh.   that's a lot of time.   I guess I'll just go back to trashing the Oilers for a while

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

What?  another month?   yeah I thought it was friday.

 

yeesh.   that's a lot of time.   I guess I'll just go back to trashing the Oilers for a while

 

You had me going.

Would be odd to draft while the teams are still playing.

Imagine MTL trading Josh Anderson during the playoffs for a 1st.

 

Chill out and enjoy the summer.

The Oilers are always good fodder for us.

Did you know they want to go full time with the reverse retro dark blues?

Blech.

Almost as bad as Dallas' reverse retro.

Well, at least they will get away from puke orange.

Didn't like the Ducks use of it and thought the Oilers Orange Crush was just a hoot.

Poor Hunter will have to dye his fur.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

You had me going.

Would be odd to draft while the teams are still playing.

Imagine MTL trading Josh Anderson during the playoffs for a 1st.

 

Chill out and enjoy the summer.

The Oilers are always good fodder for us.

Did you know they want to go full time with the reverse retro dark blues?

Blech.

Almost as bad as Dallas' reverse retro.

Well, at least they will get away from puke orange.

Didn't like the Ducks use of it and thought the Oilers Orange Crush was just a hoot.

Poor Hunter will have to dye his fur.

 

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

 

Website down.

TG closed.

Infinite mint.

Can't withdraw.

LPs drained.

Dev sell.

Rugged.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Website down.

TG closed.

Infinite mint.

Can't withdraw.

LPs drained.

Dev sell.

Rugged.

 

The Edmonton Titans

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

The Edmonton Titans

 

Whackd

[travel_dude]

On 6/21/2021 at 7:14 PM, jjgallow said:

 

Yes I think the consensus is 4 D should be gone by then, in my mind there are 6-7 that should be.

 

My own opinions aside, those big 4, I think one will drop.   And they all have numbers way beyond anything resembling a low ceiling.

 

We're talking about me saying Ceulemans should be included in the group because he's not that far off form Cale Makar, and these 4 guys being better than him.  Like THAT good.

 

You make a good point about none of these players being quick fixes.  Actually I do think teams will try and play them but that will be a disaster.   

 

At the end of the day though, you are building a pretty strong context for drafting a forward, even using ceilings to justify it and we know this year's forwards mostly have lower ceilings.      The stronger you argue for drafting a forward the more it demonstrates what Many of the teams ahead of us will do, make justifications for drafting a forward such as "oh there's only 2 good D in the top 10" even though 95% of scouts agree there is 4 (and I think that's an under-estimation).  Any of those top 4 have ceilings somewhere between franchise player and Norris winner.

 

So that is why I think one of them will be available.   Also, despite how badly many teams need goaltending, that's never stopped us for never investing in them and I don't think it will stop these teams either.  Goalies almost Always drop rank in the first round and I'd be really surprised if Wallstedt doesn't.

 

Simply put, there is an ubundance of great long term decisions to choose from and a shortage of quick fixes.   So I think teams will scramble to grab those quick fixes like toilet paper in March 2020 because unfortunately humans make these decisions.

 

 

 

An interesting look at Ceulemans:

 

https://flamesnation.ca/2021/06/25/2021-flames-first-round-targets-corson-ceulemans/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

Some of the opinions don't really match the Makar comp.

A very limited viewing in AJHC.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

An interesting look at Ceulemans:

 

https://flamesnation.ca/2021/06/25/2021-flames-first-round-targets-corson-ceulemans/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

Some of the opinions don't really match the Makar comp.

A very limited viewing in AJHC.

 

That was interesting to read, 

 

I must say, there are only a handful of scouts in the world I take seriously and even then with major major misgivings.   An example..yes...Craig Button.
I am...always...a stats guy.   That's because it's steered me straighter than the scouts have.   But in this particular draft year, I think even a scouts guy has to rely more on stats to have a hope.

 

So I would argue some of these opinions do match the Makar camp in the sense that all the scouts mostly got him wrong.

 

The article starts off with Sam McGilligan.    When I read these reports I have a sort of BS filter which bolds things as I go.    McGilligan's report ad a lot of bold.   Such classic helpful observations as:

 

His opening line, I almost stopped here:

"I really wish Corson Ceulemans played in the WHL this year."    is this a scouting report?  what is happening here?

 

"The Regina born right handed defenseman"  Why do scouts not even bother to fact check the second sentence in their reports?   Ceulemans hails From Beaumont Alberta and as far as I can tell has never really lived or played in Regina.   Was he maybe born in Regina and moved to Beaumont right away?  Maybe.  But to just pull this off some data feed with zero context really highlights the kind of scout we're dealing with.  Lazy.

"you’ll notice him firing from the blue line numerous times a game"    thanks Sam.  First time writing on a defenceman?

 

"My opinion on him has changed repeatedly with my viewings."   what viewings?     Sam didn't even wait for the u18 tournament to write this article and he had played like 5 games at time of posting.    He added a stock video into his report from 2019.  Without bending the space-time continuum I don't see a scenario where it is possible for this guy to have seen more of Corson than that stock video.   The only conclusion I can draw is that Ceulemans really wasn't scouted this year, leaving a vacuum for scouts that don't mind pretending to sound like they were there.

 

I don't see any evidence whatsoever that this "scout" has ever visited Alberta, let alone Brooks.    His reports are from all over.    He released his 2021 top 100 player ranking for the draft.    It was, decidedly, incompetent.    On twitter there's a smattering of him switching off between different sports and countries and getting fired from different scouting jobs.    An example of his fine work:

 

Then they move onto "The Win Column"

 

"A product of Regina, Saskatchewan, Ceulemans spent his younger years playing across Western Canada"  No, no, no, no.  What is even happening right now?   He played in Edmonton.   He is a product of Edmonton/Beaumont.  So now we've graduated from lazy and moved into just plain wrong.

 

"Ceuelemans’ defensive game is also good, if not excellent"   In total contradiction the the previously mentioned "Scout"

 

"Scouts simply have not seen enough from him"   Finally, finally, some honesty.    

 

He isn't scouted.   He's just not scouted.    This second article at least doesn't claim to have actually seen him play, rather it is just a synopsis.  And, also written way before the WJC.

 

 

 

Now back to Flames Nation:

 

They correctly put together a few key facts but aren't quite sure what to do with them given the lack of scouting.    

 

For instance, they compare the status of Ceulemans to Makar.

 

And, they note that Ceulemans is comparatively almost a year younger than Makar.   

 

But they don't tie the two together in their conclusion.   That conclusion, by the way, is that Ceulemans' stats do in fact compare very directly to Makar, when you adjust for their ages.   The diffences are actually negligible.   Now, if you don't adjust for age, Makar has the better stats but not by huge amounts.  And speaking of huge, Ceuleman's size is more translatable to the NHL.

 

Is Ceulemans comparable, really, to Makar?    Probably not.     But that's not really the question, nobody's asking of Ceulemans should go first overall this draft.    The question is, where does he rank with the limited available data?

 

IMHO his size, shot, and stats, and WJC performance put him in the top 10.    Should we draft him at 12?  Probably not because we know we can get him lower than that.

[travel_dude]

6 hours ago, jjgallow said:

"A product of Regina, Saskatchewan, Ceulemans spent his younger years playing across Western Canada"  No, no, no, no.  What is even happening right now?   He played in Edmonton.   He is a product of Edmonton/Beaumont.  So now we've graduated from lazy and moved into just plain wrong.

 

 

When people say product of, they usually mean where he was born.

Loubo always referred to Glencross as he product of Kindersley Sask.

So, Ceulemans is in fact a product of Regina, Sask.

I guess Leduc, Edmonton and Brooks are not considered Western Canada?

 

The whole pont of my posting this article link was for perpective.

Some guys like Button fall in love too easily.

A limited showing in the AJHC does not guarantee success.

And ranked all over the map, so I agree that at 12 he is a bit of a reach.

May be one of the best 1st rounder D's this year.

Or could be a Brandon Hickey.

Jusk kidding.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

When people say product of, they usually mean where he was born.

Loubo always referred to Glencross as he product of Kindersley Sask.

So, Ceulemans is in fact a product of Regina, Sask.

I guess Leduc, Edmonton and Brooks are not considered Western Canada?

 

The whole pont of my posting this article link was for perpective.

Some guys like Button fall in love too easily.

A limited showing in the AJHC does not guarantee success.

And ranked all over the map, so I agree that at 12 he is a bit of a reach.

May be one of the best 1st rounder D's this year.

Or could be a Brandon Hickey.

Jusk kidding.

 

Welcome to Leduc, the full Western cross-Canada hockey experience lol.

 

Yeah I don't mean to go too hard on the scouts I guess ultimately he's just not really that well scouted, what I probably should have just said is both those reports were before the WJC and thus of little value.   They kept saying how he should have played in the WHL but he played a level above that and absolutely dominated, just as much as Brandt did.  

 

I think he's the right risks to take because he has the speed, the skill, the size, the RHS.    

 

Lack of exposure, defensive inconsistency keep his rank a bit lower but I don't consider these to be unmanageable risks.

 

I'd like to see the Flames either acquire more picks or upgrade them.  There's going to be great players still available in near the end of the first round, Ceulemens or Coronato or who knows who could be one of them.   It's so wide open this year.

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

I'd like to see the Flames either acquire more picks or upgrade them.  There's going to be great players still available in near the end of the first round, Ceulemens or Coronato or who knows who could be one of them.   It's so wide open this year.

 

We would like to be able to do this every year.

Last year, a pick at 12 and 24 would have netter two NHL players.

Possibly no different this year.

There's the problem, no team is gving them away.

The cap is forcing team to rely more on drafting and adding in FA.

That sounds weird, but the bargains are where teams make hay.

A lot less trades these days.

 

Montreal did better signing Toffoli than they did trading for and signing Anderson.

Foligno was a waste of a 1st for MTL.

Was Savard really worth what Tampa paid for him?

[jjgallow]

20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

We would like to be able to do this every year.

Last year, a pick at 12 and 24 would have netter two NHL players.

Possibly no different this year.

There's the problem, no team is gving them away.

The cap is forcing team to rely more on drafting and adding in FA.

That sounds weird, but the bargains are where teams make hay.

A lot less trades these days.

 

Montreal did better signing Toffoli than they did trading for and signing Anderson.

Foligno was a waste of a 1st for MTL.

Was Savard really worth what Tampa paid for him?

 

Well,

 

Other than, us..lol.

 

It's definitely not 2007 anymore where nearly every pick was traded.    But, first round pick trades do seem to happen every year, and, we Tend to be one of the teams involved, just in the wrong direction.   BTW  I'm not saying it's Always wrong to trade your first.  Surely Pittsburgh won a cup doing it.   But in the same breath it's also why they're a lame duck in Crosby's later years.

 

I'm not denying that there is a price to be paid.   I'd just like to see the bandaid ripped off.   Pay that price.   We're heading into two of the best drafts the NHL has seen since McDavid, and possibly better.  Pay the price, suck it up for a couple years and stock those cupboards.

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well,

 

Other than, us..lol.

 

It's definitely not 2007 anymore where nearly every pick was traded.    But, first round pick trades do seem to happen every year, and, we Tend to be one of the teams involved, just in the wrong direction.   BTW  I'm not saying it's Always wrong to trade your first.  Surely Pittsburgh won a cup doing it.   But in the same breath it's also why they're a lame duck in Crosby's later years.

 

I'm not denying that there is a price to be paid.   I'd just like to see the bandaid ripped off.   Pay that price.   We're heading into two of the best drafts the NHL has seen since McDavid, and possibly better.  Pay the price, suck it up for a couple years and stock those cupboards.

 

I don't track it, but I would suggest that the number of 1st round picks traded after the SCF and before the draft are quite low.

Moving up and down is a different story.

But those mostly are picks for picks. 

Add into that the upcoming expansion draft and it make the time window so short.

[robrob74]

12 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Welcome to Leduc, the full Western cross-Canada hockey experience lol.

 

Yeah I don't mean to go too hard on the scouts I guess ultimately he's just not really that well scouted, what I probably should have just said is both those reports were before the WJC and thus of little value.   They kept saying how he should have played in the WHL but he played a level above that and absolutely dominated, just as much as Brandt did.  

 

I think he's the right risks to take because he has the speed, the skill, the size, the RHS.    

 

Lack of exposure, defensive inconsistency keep his rank a bit lower but I don't consider these to be unmanageable risks.

 

I'd like to see the Flames either acquire more picks or upgrade them.  There's going to be great players still available in near the end of the first round, Ceulemens or Coronato or who knows who could be one of them.   It's so wide open this year.

 

They took a chance on that offensive D man last year who has a non-existent Defensive game. Jeremie Poirier. 
 

Why not take a chance on someone like the one you’re referring to?

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't track it, but I would suggest that the number of 1st round picks traded after the SCF and before the draft are quite low.

Moving up and down is a different story.

But those mostly are picks for picks. 

Add into that the upcoming expansion draft and it make the time window so short.

 We did twice. We were probably the team that has done it most, for Hamilton and Hamonic. 

[travel_dude]

24 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 We did twice. We were probably the team that has done it most, for Hamilton and Hamonic. 

 

Yes, I was actually trying to forget that.

The biggest problem was one of those trades ended up being a lotto pick.  I remember sweating it out.

Oilers traded a 1st for Reinhart.

Apart from us though, can you name 5 other trades in the last 5 years like that?

The only one that comes to mind it JT Miller.

Everything else was TDL stuff.

 

Might be more since 2016, but I can't come up with any.

That was my point though, not many teams do those trade before the draft.

[sak22]

15 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 We did twice. We were probably the team that has done it most, for Hamilton and Hamonic. 

Nope, Hamonic was traded at the 2017 for picks that were undetermined for order.  I believe they are referring to trades for first rounders in the days leading up to the draft when the order is known. 

 

I don't really remember a time when there were a bunch of trades leading up, some years were bigger than others based on the types of players moved, thinking of 2011 when Philly made the big splash trading Carter and Richards, the lead up is usually just intensified by the gossip more years than not there is little significant action at the draft.  I think these days more teams want to see how the draft plays out before shopping their pick, most drafts nowadays the difference between players in the 15-60 range is pretty small.  Teams try to make moves to gain additional picks but I think more big moves are getting pushed to after the draft when teams are less prepared for the next draft.

[robrob74]

14 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Nope, Hamonic was traded at the 2017 for picks that were undetermined for order.  I believe they are referring to trades for first rounders in the days leading up to the draft when the order is known. 

 

I don't really remember a time when there were a bunch of trades leading up, some years were bigger than others based on the types of players moved, thinking of 2011 when Philly made the big splash trading Carter and Richards, the lead up is usually just intensified by the gossip more years than not there is little significant action at the draft.  I think these days more teams want to see how the draft plays out before shopping their pick, most drafts nowadays the difference between players in the 15-60 range is pretty small.  Teams try to make moves to gain additional picks but I think more big moves are getting pushed to after the draft when teams are less prepared for the next draft.

 

I see that. 
 

it is really hard to trade for them at the draft. We maneuvered a bit last year & supposedly got our guy in the end, or they were happy with the opportunity to nab what was left. But those weren’t deals where we gained more 1sts, just depth picks.

[Thebrewcrew]

Less than a month from the draft. Any predictions or hot takes?

 

Here's a few

 

-Eichel is traded at the draft for 2022 picks, instead of 2021. Teams always fall in love with the board the closer we get to the draft and will be hesitant to move 21 picks. 

 

-Dylan Guenther will still be on the board at pick 10, which belongs to Ottawa. Flames fans will be screaming for a trade-up from 12th to 10th, but it doesn't happen and Guenther ends up a Senator.

 

-The Flames will draft Cole Sillinger

 

- Two 1st round goalies. Jesper Wallstedt to Detroit at 6th and Sebastian Cossa to Edmonton at 19th

 

- The Bruins pick will be an American kid that leaves everyone scratching their head. They seldom draft from the CHL, 2017 being the last time they spent a pick on a CHLer. They like their American kids. Sean Behrens or Tyler Boucher, something like that