Geoff Ward, Flames 18 th coach

[cross16]

1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Of all the parts that have been seen as part of the problem ,goaltending, defence, coach, GM, 3-4th lines, core players, really only the GM and core players havent been addressed. Whether or not the changes made were/are the right ones the results aren't what anyone hoped for, so far. This leaves the GM and core players, do you switch out both or one or the other? Changing a GM now wont see results until at least next season, changing the core comes down to hoping you change the right pieces.  

 

The GM is not without blame but for me personally I don't put this all on his feet. I think it's pretty clear this is a core issue and players like Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Hanifin etc just did not take the steps forward the club thought they would. Fair to blame the GM for perhaps building the wrong vision, acquiring the wrong type of player, or maybe he shouldn't' have believed in them but when I think back to where this club was trending 2-3 years ago i thought they'd' be in better shape than this. That' why I don't put this all on the GM, players stopped performing.  Fair arguments both sides I think.

 

I am of the belief that this organization wants to change the core and have been trying, I believe that to be a fact. I think the fact that is has not happened yet is likely 1 of 2 (or maybe both) reasons. 1 they don't want to make futures deals they want hockey deals and 2 they are in a climate that is exceptionally difficult to make trades in. Some of that the club can control some of it, it can't.

 

That's why I think Sutter is here. They can't change the core with trades so brining in a coach with a track record of getting players to change their ways. 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

The GM is not without blame but for me personally I don't put this all on his feet. I think it's pretty clear this is a core issue and players like Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Hanifin etc just did not take the steps forward the club thought they would. Fair to blame the GM for perhaps building the wrong vision, acquiring the wrong type of player, or maybe he shouldn't' have believed in them but when I think back to where this club was trending 2-3 years ago i thought they'd' be in better shape than this. That' why I don't put this all on the GM, players stopped performing.  Fair arguments both sides I think.

 

I am of the belief that this organization wants to change the core and have been trying, I believe that to be a fact. I think the fact that is has not happened yet is likely 1 of 2 (or maybe both) reasons. 1 they don't want to make futures deals they want hockey deals and 2 they are in a climate that is exceptionally difficult to make trades in. Some of that the club can control some of it, it can't.

 

That's why I think Sutter is here. They can't change the core with trades so brining in a coach with a track record of getting players to change their ways. 

Agreed, the issue is that I dont think this is a Sutter style team. Not at its core anyway, but then a Sutter team now may need be very different than a Sutter team form 10 years ago.

[jjgallow]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

I really hate how this keeps being framed as such a binary argument. The coach can suck and the players be a problem too but criticize one or the other and it gets framed as blame or choosing sides. 

 

Ward was a bad coach, no question but the problems always ran deeper than the coach. This is a team that plays when it's easy and won't fight and do the little things it takes to win on a consistent basis. 

 

Sutter will get them playing better, he already has, and I have no doubt they'll win more games coming up here but I question if he can fix that mentality. 

 

 

 

Here's the thing.   It's not just mentality

 

He can't fix that fact that we have an enormous gap in talent on the right-hand side of the ice.

 

He can't make Gaudreau 6'4, and he can't make Gaudreau effective in playoffs.

 

He can't give us first line D or first line centers.

 

I won't touch goaltending, but those three points above are enough on their own.

 

We have some of the best Left Wingers in the league, which is unfortunately the least valuable position in hockey, and we have some good middling depth but nothing elite outside of left wing.

 

None of these things can be fixed by a coach.

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

The GM is not without blame but for me personally I don't put this all on his feet. I think it's pretty clear this is a core issue and players like Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Hanifin etc just did not take the steps forward the club thought they would. Fair to blame the GM for perhaps building the wrong vision, acquiring the wrong type of player, or maybe he shouldn't' have believed in them but when I think back to where this club was trending 2-3 years ago i thought they'd' be in better shape than this. That' why I don't put this all on the GM, players stopped performing.  Fair arguments both sides I think.

 

I am of the belief that this organization wants to change the core and have been trying, I believe that to be a fact. I think the fact that is has not happened yet is likely 1 of 2 (or maybe both) reasons. 1 they don't want to make futures deals they want hockey deals and 2 they are in a climate that is exceptionally difficult to make trades in. Some of that the club can control some of it, it can't.

 

That's why I think Sutter is here. They can't change the core with trades so brining in a coach with a track record of getting players to change their ways. 

 

well, they did say Lindholm was going to be a good player and be someone who’s a 55-65 point guy. That’s good, but is it #1C good or elite? He’s a very good quality player you want on the team. Maybe he’s a touch underpaid but only a bit over what is expected. Is a he a 70-85 point guy? Probably not. He does everything good but you don’t want him to be your best player at this level because it means the rest is just good to really good. 
 

maybe if you had 6 Lindholms in the top 6 that would be very good, of course righty and lefties, but we don’t have that. 
 

Tkachuk is good but isn’t elite either. He’s like everyone else, stoppable when you actually try to stop him. 
 

I think the cat is out of the bag, everyone knows that if you make it hard on this team, the team folds. That means not one player on the team is elite, because if they were elite, they’d get through it. 
 

I think it’s always been that way and it started in the 2nd have of the really good season. Teams started tightening up and Ryan willed us to 1st in the West. 
 

and teams know that our D folds when they’re pressured too. I also think they just sit back and waited for turnovers in the neutral zone, yummy apple turnovers!

[jjgallow]

On 3/23/2021 at 5:49 PM, robrob74 said:

 

well, they did say Lindholm was going to be a good player and be someone who’s a 55-65 point guy. That’s good, but is it #1C good or elite? He’s a very good quality player you want on the team. Maybe he’s a touch underpaid but only a bit over what is expected. Is a he a 70-85 point guy? Probably not. He does everything good but you don’t want him to be your best player at this level because it means the rest is just good to really good. 
 

maybe if you had 6 Lindholms in the top 6 that would be very good, of course righty and lefties, but we don’t have that. 
 

Tkachuk is good but isn’t elite either. He’s like everyone else, stoppable when you actually try to stop him. 
 

I think the cat is out of the bag, everyone knows that if you make it hard on this team, the team folds. That means not one player on the team is elite, because if they were elite, they’d get through it. 
 

I think it’s always been that way and it started in the 2nd have of the really good season. Teams started tightening up and Ryan willed us to 1st in the West. 
 

and teams know that our D folds when they’re pressured too. I also think they just sit back and waited for turnovers in the neutral zone, yummy apple turnovers!

 

It gets into a chicken egg thing that can be hard to dissect.   When a team gets to the point this team is, things fall apart and there are many reasons for the falling apart.

 

I like hard math.

 

We have nobody with a RHS, We have no first line D, we have no top center, and we keep screwing up our goaltending like an insane person bashing their head against a wall.

 

Another simpler way of describing that formula is:  Our team is made up of left wingers.  period.

 

We can try firing coaches and motivation sessions and team building exercises and better nutrition but we ain't going nowhere with only left wingers.

 

The good thing is, if you look at our prospect system...nevermind.

 

 

I personally liked Tkachuk.  He was definitely in a development phase, and nobody's going to be developing any more with the currrent team state.   So it's a bit of a waste and we're going to be selling off assets that actually had value, for a lot less.