Blockbuster: Hamilton Ferland Fox for Hanifin Lindholm

[cross16]

Mike Van Ryan, a Canadian, is the reason the 4 year UFA rule exists.the original "loophole" was that you became a UFA after you left college. So Van Ryan played 2 years college, one year junior and then made himself a UFA. To close the loophole, the NHL made it so that you only get UFA status after 4 years. 

[Pyromancer]

What's the point of drafting a college player starting a 4 year college program then?

[cross16]

7 minutes ago, Pyromancer said:

What's the point of drafting a college player starting a 4 year college program then?

 

The vast majority of them sign contracts when the team offers. 

[JTech780]

4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

The vast majority of them sign contracts when the team offers. 

 

One thing I find interesting is that most college athletes have to declare for the draft in their perspective sports. In football and basketball a player has to declare for the draft and once they do they are no longer eligible to play college sports. In baseball they can be drafted, but they have a couple of weeks to sign with the team that drafted them, if they don't then they go back to college and have to wait for the next draft. The team that drafts them doesn't hold their rights.

[cross16]

On 2019-04-04 at 11:29 PM, JTech780 said:

 

One thing I find interesting is that most college athletes have to declare for the draft in their perspective sports. In football and basketball a player has to declare for the draft and once they do they are no longer eligible to play college sports. In baseball they can be drafted, but they have a couple of weeks to sign with the team that drafted them, if they don't then they go back to college and have to wait for the next draft. The team that drafts them doesn't hold their rights.

 

I think long term this would be the route the NHL would want to go but right now I think having junior hockey as the bigger talent provider makes it impossible in the current format . Would have to be a big overhaul of junior hockey and the draft system which is probably a necessary process but I'm not sure how likely it is or how soon we'll see it. 

 

But it I think it's also worth pointing out that all systems have their flaws and under all formats players/agents manipulate the rules to get what they want. In baseball you have players frequently not sign with teams that draft them, players manipulate information to try and land with certain teams, and you have a system so flawed kyler Murray gave back millions of dollars to the Oakland As to play football instead. In the nfl players and rookies hold out, demand trades, leak information to get drafted by certain teams, and you have Laila Collins of the cowboys who after some news leaked and moved him down draft boards flat out told teams he wouldn't report in order to go undrafted so he could sign with the cowboys. 

 

There are always loopholes. 

[The_People1]

The Hurricanes advance to the second round by beating the defending Cup champs.

 

 

So, who won this trade again?

[jjgallow]

17 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

The Hurricanes advance to the second round by beating the defending Cup champs.

 

 

So, who won this trade again?

 

It's still a tough call but I'm going to say Hurricanes have the edge, and the potential to entirely turn this thing around.

 

Hamilton emerged in a big way.  Especially in the playoffs.  He is a deadly.   

 

If Hamilton keeps this up he will finish the playoffs as the league's most sought-after defenceman.

 

And if that happens, landslide victory for Hurricanes.

 

 

Right now, too close to call.   But ONLY because Lindholm has done so well.   I don't think BT knew that though, I think he just lucked out.

 

Considering that this is really the only "win" I've seen from BT's moves, and it could go down as one of the worst flops if Hamilton keeps this up...

 

It could remove the only arguement for keeping BT imho.

 

p.s...  Lindholm was a nice surprise.     Hamilton, however, was Projected to be one of the top defencemen in the NHL.  Moreso than Hannifin.  
And he's currently on course.    If Hamilton achieves, there is just no excuse.    Why you would let go a player with this projection, size, and playoff dominance.    This looked like a bad trade from the start.  Then Lindholm made it look better.    But at the end of the day it's hard to escape Hamilton's projection.

[redfire11]

Fox could very well now make Carolina a strong consideration.

[phoenix66]

9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

The Hurricanes advance to the second round by beating the defending Cup champs.

 

 

So, who won this trade again?

I would still put Calgary ahead 

Even if Fox does sign there , we knew he wasn't signing here ..so there is no loss there ..he was a tipper that got the trade through

 

Neither Hamilton or Ferland gave Carolina anything we didn't know they could do

Ferland scored goals, showed flash of physical play..got hurt..disappeared .. same way he played here . Somebody will pay him 5+ M this summer .. love the guy , but he's not 5M to me 

 

We knew what Hamilton is .. he logs high minutes , gets points,  will never play physical He is a true#1 .. but there were other reasons he got traded .. he was addition by subtraction in many ways 

 

 Lindholm, excelled ..showed he can be more than he was in Carolina and hes still growing 

 

Hanifin is where Hamilton was at 22.. we forget he's the same age as Kyllington.. this was his first season playing top 4 defensive minutes ..got 30+ points on the 2nd pair. He is way ahead on his development , nowhere near his peak 

 

At this point I look at performance over expectation..  Carolina got what they thought they were getting... We got more than we expected..  for me that puts us in the lead 

[jjgallow]

 

 

50 shots against is not normal.

 

All the responses to that on here saying "yeah we just need a playmaking center", are, regrettably, quite a normal reaction.

 

BT gutted the actual defense.  Somehow, it wasn't fully exposed until the playoffs.   If the issue isn't obvious to people by now then it never will be.

 

 

 

[phoenix66]

41 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

50 shots against is not normal.

 

All the responses to that on here saying "yeah we just need a playmaking center", are, regrettably, quite a normal reaction.

 

BT gutted the actual defense.  Somehow, it wasn't fully exposed until the playoffs.   If the issue isn't obvious to people by now then it never will be.

 

 

 

I would also say that shots can be very misleading ..  this is the 6-2 game, , lots of very low danger shots in there (high danger too ) 

They were shooting from anywhere and everywhere 

 

http://scores.nbcsports.com/nhl/shotchart.asp?gamecode=2019041517&team=17&period=0&home=17&vis=03&show=all&player=000

 

as an addon , I believe we had the 2nd lowest avg shots against per game in the reg season 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

18 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

50 shots against is not normal.

 

All the responses to that on here saying "yeah we just need a playmaking center", are, regrettably, quite a normal reaction.

 

BT gutted the actual defense.  Somehow, it wasn't fully exposed until the playoffs.   If the issue isn't obvious to people by now then it never will be.

 

 

 

So a game with 50+ shots against and a massive difference in offensive zone time falls entirely on the shoulders of the defense? 

 

Since you bring it up how did BT "gut" the defense?

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

So a game with 50+ shots against and a massive difference in offensive zone time falls entirely on the shoulders of the defense? 

 

Since you bring it up how did BT "gut" the defense?

 

yeah you're right a playmaking center totally would have fixed it

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

I would also say that shots can be very misleading ..  this is the 6-2 game, , lots of very low danger shots in there (high danger too ) 

They were shooting from anywhere and everywhere 

 

http://scores.nbcsports.com/nhl/shotchart.asp?gamecode=2019041517&team=17&period=0&home=17&vis=03&show=all&player=000

 

as an addon , I believe we had the 2nd lowest avg shots against per game in the reg season 

 

they were, but that's still a defense thing.    

 

regular season we were great for shots against.   when it didn't matter, we delivered.

[Khrox]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

regular season we were great for shots against.   when it didn't matter, we delivered.

To say regular season doesn't matter isn't exactly true. Without regular season performance we could not be in the playoffs.

I've said this before, and I'll say it now. The initial trade I feel we upgraded forward (Lindholm>Ferland) but downgraded D (Hanifin<Hamilton). At the same time, I feel like Hanifin is where Hamilton was when we got him, though a bit different in style (Hamilton more of a goal-scoring D, Hanifin being more like Brodie in the aspect of being a better passer rather than shooter). This season, Hanifin has developed a fair bit more than he had the last few years, and there is no reason to doubt that he won't continue to grow the next couple years (much like Dougie did with us). Don't get me wrong, I feel like Dougie has more potential to be a #1D, but at the moment, I feel like the difference isn't that much at the moment. 

The biggest issue with our playoffs I feel is two-fold. The amount of playoff rookies (Hanifin, Ryan, Lindholm, Janko, Hathaway, Valimaki, Andersson, with Rittich who never saw minutes, but was also a playoff rookie) and a head coach in his first playoff as head coach (and even assistant coaches in their first NHL playoffs as assistant coaches). No matter how many times people get told that the pressure amps up, and it becomes harder, it's one of those things that if you do not experience yourself, you never truly understand. The second part is a bit more on the coaching (but players as well), and that is failure to adapt to the play. When the zone entry didn't work, instead of adapting, they went with the same strategy over, and over. The players on the ice should have adapted to that, but also, the coaches should have pushed a change their as well.

[jjgallow]

12 hours ago, Khrox said:

To say regular season doesn't matter isn't exactly true. Without regular season performance we could not be in the playoffs.

I've said this before, and I'll say it now. The initial trade I feel we upgraded forward (Lindholm>Ferland) but downgraded D (Hanifin<Hamilton). At the same time, I feel like Hanifin is where Hamilton was when we got him, though a bit different in style (Hamilton more of a goal-scoring D, Hanifin being more like Brodie in the aspect of being a better passer rather than shooter). This season, Hanifin has developed a fair bit more than he had the last few years, and there is no reason to doubt that he won't continue to grow the next couple years (much like Dougie did with us). Don't get me wrong, I feel like Dougie has more potential to be a #1D, but at the moment, I feel like the difference isn't that much at the moment. 

The biggest issue with our playoffs I feel is two-fold. The amount of playoff rookies (Hanifin, Ryan, Lindholm, Janko, Hathaway, Valimaki, Andersson, with Rittich who never saw minutes, but was also a playoff rookie) and a head coach in his first playoff as head coach (and even assistant coaches in their first NHL playoffs as assistant coaches). No matter how many times people get told that the pressure amps up, and it becomes harder, it's one of those things that if you do not experience yourself, you never truly understand. The second part is a bit more on the coaching (but players as well), and that is failure to adapt to the play. When the zone entry didn't work, instead of adapting, they went with the same strategy over, and over. The players on the ice should have adapted to that, but also, the coaches should have pushed a change their as well.

 

We upgraded our regular season forward.   Ferland has the size to compete in the playoffs.  I do like Lindholm.   But, when you have Gaudreau on your team, it's unusual to be downsizing guys.   I get your point though.

 

We're also in agreement that we downgraded defence.  What I can't understand is:

1.  why that's ok

2.  what the point of making the playoffs is if you've built a regular season team

3.  Why you think the difference between a developed prodigy defenceman and an undeveloped prospect with with less scoring touch or defensive ability "isn't that much"

 

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/hurricanes-dougie-hamilton-makes-impact-in-game-6/

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/hurricanes-dougie-hamilton-sets-career-high-in-goals/

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/hurricanes-dougie-hamilton-extends-point-streak-to-five-games/

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

We upgraded our regular season forward.   Ferland has the size to compete in the playoffs.  I do like Lindholm.   But, when you have Gaudreau on your team, it's unusual to be downsizing guys.   I get your point though.

 

We're also in agreement that we downgraded defence.  What I can't understand is:

1.  why that's ok

2.  what the point of making the playoffs is if you've built a regular season team

3.  Why you think the difference between a developed prodigy defenceman and an undeveloped prospect with with less scoring touch or defensive ability "isn't that much"

 

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/hurricanes-dougie-hamilton-makes-impact-in-game-6/

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/hurricanes-dougie-hamilton-sets-career-high-in-goals/

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/hurricanes-dougie-hamilton-extends-point-streak-to-five-games/

Other factors to include are that it has come out since that Hamilton requested a trade .. and that there were issues that made him a bad apple on the team .So it could be said that they made the best of what they had to do 

[JTech780]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

We upgraded our regular season forward.   Ferland has the size to compete in the playoffs.  I do like Lindholm.   But, when you have Gaudreau on your team, it's unusual to be downsizing guys.   I get your point though.

 

We're also in agreement that we downgraded defence.  What I can't understand is:

1.  why that's ok

2.  what the point of making the playoffs is if you've built a regular season team

3.  Why you think the difference between a developed prodigy defenceman and an undeveloped prospect with with less scoring touch or defensive ability "isn't that much"

 

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/hurricanes-dougie-hamilton-makes-impact-in-game-6/

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/hurricanes-dougie-hamilton-sets-career-high-in-goals/

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hockey/news/hurricanes-dougie-hamilton-extends-point-streak-to-five-games/

 

Hamilton is a very good shooter, and his goal totals reflect that, but he is not good defensively. 

 

 

Hanifin also had 33 points this season with little to no PP time, Hamilton had 39 points. This idea that Hamilton is this great player, is a complete work of fiction.

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Hanifin also had 33 points this season with little to no PP time, Hamilton had 39 points. This idea that Hamilton is this great player, is a complete work of fiction.

 

Ovechkin highlight reals are kind of expected, let's be honest.

 

Don't you think there's a reason Hamilton's matched up against him so much?

 

Have you seen Hamilton's plus/minus lately?

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

 

5 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Hamilton is a very good shooter, and his goal totals reflect that, but he is not good defensively. 

 

 

Hanifin also had 33 points this season with little to no PP time, Hamilton had 39 points. This idea that Hamilton is this great player, is a complete work of fiction.

 

3 years younger and 750 000$ less.  Hanafin +18 compared to Hamiltons 0.  I dont  understand his whole disdain for the d-core anyway.

[CalgarySTL]

JJ.... Not sure what to say about your comments re: downgraded defence.  You think Ras, Hanifin, Valimaki, Kyl are worse than Hamilton, Stone, Bartkowski?.....

[JTech780]

56 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Ovechkin highlight reals are kind of expected, let's be honest.

 

Don't you think there's a reason Hamilton's matched up against him so much?

 

Have you seen Hamilton's plus/minus lately?

 

It only becomes an Ovi highlight reel because of how poorly Hamilton played on all 3 of those plays. He wasn't even close to being on the right side of the puck. Sure we could say that it's because it's Ovi, but he played the same way when he was here on a regular basis.

 

I also find it convenient that you are ok with giving Hamilton a pass because it's Ovi, but at the same time are torching the Flames defense while going up against MacKinnon who is a top 3 player in the league, who is on par with the McDavid's and the Crosby's.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

Hamilton is a very good shooter, and his goal totals reflect that, but he is not good defensively. 

 

Actually, Hamilton is pretty good defensively.  On a scale of 1-10 he's somewhere in the 7 to 8 range from a pure shut down perspective.  We can certainly argue if that is good enough defense as a top pairing, yes.

 

If Giordano is a 9-10, and Brodie is a 4-to-6, then Hamilton is "okay". 

 

Where Hamilton has hurt the Flames in the past is after he wins the puck battles, he makes braindead plays with the puck.  Ie. Needless icing, blind passes, passes into a crowd of players, passing to open space to no one in particular, trying to weave two opponents on the breakout, etc.

[JTech780]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Actually, Hamilton is pretty good defensively.  On a scale of 1-10 he's somewhere in the 7 to 8 range from a pure shut down perspective.  We can certainly argue if that is good enough defense as a top pairing, yes.

 

If Giordano is a 9-10, and Brodie is a 4-to-6, then Hamilton is "okay". 

 

Where Hamilton has hurt the Flames in the past is after he wins the puck battles, he makes braindead plays with the puck.  Ie. Needless icing, blind passes, passes into a crowd of players, passing to open space to no one in particular, trying to weave two opponents on the breakout, etc.

 

I would disagree, I would have him much closer to Brodie defensively. Hamilton is quite often on the wrong side of the puck and not where he needs to be defensively. He is also extremely soft loses a lot of puck battles. 

 

I think he is a much better player with the puck than without. 

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

I also find it convenient that you are ok with giving Hamilton a pass because it's Ovi,

 

I find it convenient that you're forgetting to mention how Hamilton and his team, on the whole, shut down Ovi and the Capitals, and are now moving the the 2nd round.   I could post plenty of screenshots of how Mackinnon man-handled our D, you're absolutely right.  I have no idea if you're trying to prove a point there but I can guarantee you it wouldn't help your argument if I posted them.

 

Look this is really simple, we just got smoked.  Particularly on D.   BT gave up D which didn't get smoked, and in fact are on the playoffs leaderboard for plus/minus as Well as goals scored and points.

 

There is no twisting that which doesn't bring you back to the truth.