So Where do we go from here? Analysis & Predictions

[rickross]

1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

How do you figure we are short on RW depth especially lower down the lines ? We have currently Ferland, Frolik, Brouwer, Lazar, Hathaway, Versteeg, Hamilton. Where do you see Stafford fitting in ?

Let's keep in mind Stafford can play both wings so he's not just a lock on the RW, besides it's the worst kept secret that the Flames lack NHL ready RW depth throughout the organization.

[rickross]

8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

And if he doesn't make the team are you comfortable with the idea of him playing in the A and taking away ice time from a prospect they are trying to develop?  

 

Sure he brings you NHL experience but why should we value that over a prospect who could have more talent/more impact? You need your prospects to eventually gain NHL experience and you need to dangle the carrot to show them that there is actually something they can work towards. Signing guys like Stafford sends the wrong message especially when they aren't an upgrade over anything you have at the NHL level. 

Yup, I'd be comfortable with him playing in the A. He could provide leadership and a veteran presence. It's just as important to learn how to live and carry yourself as an NHLer, thats a big part of their development, it wouldn't be the end of the world. 

 

You don't value his Nhl experience over a prospects potential but its an added value. If anything it would reinforce how hard it is to make the NHL but moreso how hard it is to STAY in the Nhl. The guy has put up 20 goals in the NHL..there is atleast some skill there, how many 20 goal scorers did we have last year....2?! Not saying he's a lock to go off and start scoring hat tricks but there's still the potential he can put up decent numbers at a cost of $800k.

[MAC331]

56 minutes ago, rickross said:

Let's keep in mind Stafford can play both wings so he's not just a lock on the RW, besides it's the worst kept secret that the Flames lack NHL ready RW depth throughout the organization.

We may lack a top calibre RW but we certainly don't lack depth for the position.

[Flyerfan52]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

Drew Stafford just also really isn't very good. If we can't expect someone form the A to our perform him we are in big trouble. 

1st part I say no.

2nd part I agree.

 

@ 0.8 Stafford will probably be the player that provides the best bang for the buck this season. The Debbies are getting a steal!

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

And if he doesn't make the team are you comfortable with the idea of him playing in the A and taking away ice time from a prospect they are trying to develop?  

 

Sure he brings you NHL experience but why should we value that over a prospect who could have more talent/more impact? I get the NHL experience argument but I think you need to weight the benefit of that experience versus the benefit of giving your prospects NHL experience if needed. For where the Flames are right now I think the benefit of giving their prospects experience would far outweigh having an NHL vet like Stafford. 

 

Not that i'm against signing an NHL vet but at this point if they can't help you in the top 6 there is no point. Flames could use help in the top 6 but when it comes to depth at F or on D they are far better off using their depth at the A than they are signing more vets. 

I don't know. More wins perhaps with a player rather than a prospect that COULD have more impact? In that case the 0.8 for Dtafford is likely a bit less than this maybe so if need be Stafford is waived & @ that price he would be claimed.

[cross16]

37 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I don't know. More wins perhaps with a player rather than a prospect that COULD have more impact? In that case the 0.8 for Dtafford is likely a bit less than this maybe so if need be Stafford is waived & @ that price he would be claimed.

 

Doubt it. Vast majority of players clear waivers as it is and Stafford is signing in August with one of the worst teams in the NHL. That tells you a lot about his value in the league.

 

Either way sounds like some of you think more highly of Stafford than I do. I don't think he can help the Flames and I don't like the idea of signing older/less effective vets for depth when you have young players you can use. 

[Flyerfan52]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Doubt it. Vast majority of players clear waivers as it is and Stafford is signing in August with one of the worst teams in the NHL. That tells you a lot about his value in the league.

 

Either way sounds like some of you think more highly of Stafford than I do. I don't think he can help the Flames and I don't like the idea of signing older/less effective vets for depth when you have young players you can use. 

I don't like that idea either but older does not = less effective. @ a price = to an ELC it should be easy for a young player to wrestle a spot from the vet if the youngster is indeed more effective.

As I've said before, the AHL is the developement league. Any GM worth his salt tries to win in the here & now (unless he's guaranteed a job after a rebuild from the sewer).

[rickross]

3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

We may lack a top calibre RW but we certainly don't lack depth for the position.

I'm referring to natural RWs, we have guys who can play the position sure but we have few natural right shot RWs. Ferland even Frolik aren't natural RW, think only Brouwer and Versteeg shoot right. Lazar already said he prefers the C position so I wouldn't pencil him in solely as a RW. You talk as if we have this plethora of NHL ready RWs, Hathaway and Hamilton haven't even secured full time NHL spots, their no more then 4th liners anyway...should Ferland, Frolik or Brouwer miss time we don't have enough capable RWs that can replace them. Technically we still don't even have a top line RW, Ferland is essentially there by default. 

[travel_dude]

On 8/21/2017 at 8:32 PM, MAC331 said:

I really don't know why everyone is having such a hard time with Brouwer playing 4th line RW with Stajan as a strong secondary checking line. Think about the team and forget the money for one minute.

 

I think one of my suggested lineups had Stajan-Janko-Brouwer.  The only time that money enters my mind about the player is when I look at future costs for other players.

But, perhaps the GM has a different view.   

[rickross]

On 8/21/2017 at 8:32 PM, MAC331 said:

I really don't know why everyone is having such a hard time with Brouwer playing 4th line RW with Stajan as a strong secondary checking line. Think about the team and forget the money for one minute. Why would we not want another checking line to take some of the workload off Backlund's line giving GG possibly some better line matching to our advantage ?

I agree with conundrum that Bennett hasn't been put in the best situations to succeed mainly because he hasn't been a priority. Maybe this is the season he will be a priority. Price and his contract situation are a direct result of what has transpired to date and it will not weigh in his favor, on purpose or not.

I say put him with Tkachuk and let the two grow together just like they have with JG and SM, only then will this team grow and be better. Forget the 3M line, old news.

I'd say the issue with Brouwer on the 4th line is he's being paid top line $'s, thats precious cap space he's occupying so its hard to ignore. Having a $4.5M RW on your 4th line is far from ideal, it almost guarantees he wouldn't get enough ice time to ever live up to his contractual expectations. Brouwer wasn't signed to simply throw his weight around on the 4th line, I rather Hathaway, Hamilton or Lazar take that spot. I get what you're saying about the potential to have 2 effective checking lines but I don't think Brouwer will excel if he's simply relegated to a checking line. He had a bad year, I think he can still turn things around and be the productive player he was brought in to be.

[MAC331]

13 hours ago, rickross said:

I'm referring to natural RWs, we have guys who can play the position sure but we have few natural right shot RWs. Ferland even Frolik aren't natural RW, think only Brouwer and Versteeg shoot right. Lazar already said he prefers the C position so I wouldn't pencil him in solely as a RW. You talk as if we have this plethora of NHL ready RWs, Hathaway and Hamilton haven't even secured full time NHL spots, their no more then 4th liners anyway...should Ferland, Frolik or Brouwer miss time we don't have enough capable RWs that can replace them. Technically we still don't even have a top line RW, Ferland is essentially there by default. 

I believe I started out mentioning the lack of a top skilled RW. Whether players shoot L or R really isn't essential provided they are good at what they do like Frolik. You started this conversation with a comment about depth, currently we have the 4 RW positions covered and likely 4 past these 4 that could step in or the other 4 move up. Covering off injuries is a good time to find out what our depth players have to offer. Who is to say what we have in the AHL is not NHL ready ? You don't know until you see them in NHL action.

[MAC331]

11 hours ago, rickross said:

I'd say the issue with Brouwer on the 4th line is he's being paid top line $'s, thats precious cap space he's occupying so its hard to ignore. Having a $4.5M RW on your 4th line is far from ideal, it almost guarantees he wouldn't get enough ice time to ever live up to his contractual expectations. Brouwer wasn't signed to simply throw his weight around on the 4th line, I rather Hathaway, Hamilton or Lazar take that spot. I get what you're saying about the potential to have 2 effective checking lines but I don't think Brouwer will excel if he's simply relegated to a checking line. He had a bad year, I think he can still turn things around and be the productive player he was brought in to be.

Forget the dollars, tell me where you see him playing and with who ? There are reasons not to have him with JG/SM and other reasons to not have him with Bennett. You talk idealisms while sometimes you don't have ideal situations. I think a line of Versteeg, Jankowski and Brouwer would be ideal however that Stajan name keeps coming up.

[MAC331]

12 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think one of my suggested lineups had Stajan-Janko-Brouwer.  The only time that money enters my mind about the player is when I look at future costs for other players.

But, perhaps the GM has a different view.   

Honestly Brouwer is just another BT mistake signing we will end up living with so put him where he can best serve the team.

[stubblejumper1]

It surprises me that there is any debating the Flames RW situation.  RW is a hole on this team.  

 

There is nobody in the organization who is a true first line RW.  As it currently stands, a left hand shot or a 3rd liner with a RHS will be slotted in as a RW on the first line.  

 

As I see it, the team has three options wrt to RW:

 

1.  Accept that the position is a weak spot and use this season to develope young RWers already in the organization.  Move AHLers up and see what they can do.  This doesn't jibe with the win now direction the team seems to be taking. 

2.  Continue to tread water with the patchwork approach they used the last few years.  This didn't work last year, so I don't see why it would work this year.  I don't think anyone who played RW last year is ready to take a giant leap forward in the goal scoring department. 

3.  Make a trade for a legitimate first line RW.  Not easy to do because first line RW are not easy to come by - teams don't want to give them up and the salary cap makes big trades difficult. 

 

So...I think the team is going to have to accept the fact that RW is a weakness and struggle through this season.  Hopefully another year of growing pains builds something for the following season (or contracts expire next summer and there is more money to trade/buy a first line RW.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MAC331]

5 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said:

It surprises me that there is any debating the Flames RW situation.  RW is a hole on this team.  

 

There is nobody in the organization who is a true first line RW.  As it currently stands, a left hand shot or a 3rd liner with a RHS will be slotted in as a RW on the first line.  

 

As I see it, the team has three options wrt to RW:

 

1.  Accept that the position is a weak spot and use this season to develope young RWers already in the organization.  Move AHLers up and see what they can do.  This doesn't jibe with the win now direction the team seems to be taking. 

2.  Continue to tread water with the patchwork approach they used the last few years.  This didn't work last year, so I don't see why it would work this year.  I don't think anyone who played RW last year is ready to take a giant leap forward in the goal scoring department. 

3.  Make a trade for a legitimate first line RW.  Not easy to do because first line RW are not easy to come by - teams don't want to give them up and the salary cap makes big trades difficult. 

 

So...I think the team is going to have to accept the fact that RW is a weakness and struggle through this season.  Hopefully another year of growing pains builds something for the following season (or contracts expire next summer and there is more money to trade/buy a first line RW.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here again I don't think anyone is disputing that our top RW spot is not ideal and in need of a better solution. BT could bring in Jagr to buy us another season to find out what we have in Lazar, Foo, Pribyl and Poirier all RW possibilities. As far as trades go I think you are correct in stating true RHS-RW are scarce and hard to get. I suggested BT look for possibly another Lazar where maybe a current RHS-C is blocked or under utilized. One I think might be available is Colton Sissons in NAS. Convert him to RW and I think we have a winner.

[AlbertaBoy12]

2 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Here again I don't think anyone is disputing that our top RW spot is not ideal and in need of a better solution. BT could bring in Jagr to buy us another season to find out what we have in Lazar, Foo, Pribyl and Poirier all RW possibilities. As far as trades go I think you are correct in stating true RHS-RW are scarce and hard to get. I suggested BT look for possibly another Lazar where maybe a current RHS-C is blocked or under utilized. One I think might be available is Colton Sissons in NAS. Convert him to RW and I think we have a winner.

Why would colton sissons be available? Also I dont see him being top line RW material, hes a decent hockey player but he doesnt make the 1st line any better.

[Flyerfan52]

Here's an idea for you to rebut. From the Jets Joe Armia has good size, is a RHS RWwith good hands & good wheels. Pretty good 2 way game. He's getting 3rd line minutes but that's because the to 2 RWs are Wheeler & Laine. He's 24 with 1 year @ 0.925 left before RFA (meaning he'll play his butt off). I've seen him get better on the Jets & Moose.

Tough part given the Flames lack of tradable assets & allowing for Jets needs is what to trade. 1 that comes to mind is Valimaki for Armia & the Jets 1st rounder in 2018. The Jets are loaded with prospects @ every thing but LD so can afford the 1st rounder while Calgary is in need of high picks for the coming years.

As I say, a suggestion but it adds a good probably ready RW that could keep up with Gaudreau & a 1st for an asset we haven't seen yet.

Fire away!

[robrob74]

17 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Here's an idea for you to rebut. From the Jets Joe Armia has good size, is a RHS RWwith good hands & good wheels. Pretty good 2 way game. He's getting 3rd line minutes but that's because the to 2 RWs are Wheeler & Laine. He's 24 with 1 year @ 0.925 left before RFA (meaning he'll play his butt off). I've seen him get better on the Jets & Moose.

Tough part given the Flames lack of tradable assets & allowing for Jets needs is what to trade. 1 that comes to mind is Valimaki for Armia & the Jets 1st rounder in 2018. The Jets are loaded with prospects @ every thing but LD so can afford the 1st rounder while Calgary is in need of high picks for the coming years.

As I say, a suggestion but it adds a good probably ready RW that could keep up with Gaudreau & a 1st for an asset we haven't seen yet.

Fire away!

 

I see where you're going with it, but I just can't because I wonder what the ceiling is for Valamaki. Will it be higher than Armia? Top 4 D are worth a lot and in the future, will Valamaki garner more in a trade? 

 

Will Armia make us full contenders?

 

will that 1st rounder develop as quick as Valamaki? 

 

Will the the jets make the playoffs?

[rickross]

18 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Here's an idea for you to rebut. From the Jets Joe Armia has good size, is a RHS RWwith good hands & good wheels. Pretty good 2 way game. He's getting 3rd line minutes but that's because the to 2 RWs are Wheeler & Laine. He's 24 with 1 year @ 0.925 left before RFA (meaning he'll play his butt off). I've seen him get better on the Jets & Moose.

Tough part given the Flames lack of tradable assets & allowing for Jets needs is what to trade. 1 that comes to mind is Valimaki for Armia & the Jets 1st rounder in 2018. The Jets are loaded with prospects @ every thing but LD so can afford the 1st rounder while Calgary is in need of high picks for the coming years.

As I say, a suggestion but it adds a good probably ready RW that could keep up with Gaudreau & a 1st for an asset we haven't seen yet.

Fire away!

I rather we keep Valimaki and offload one of our 2013 1st rounders like Shink for example. I agree with robrob74 as we just don't know what we have in Valimaki yet. I actually don't mind Armia, there's potential there and i'd love to grab a 1st Rd back from the Jets although I doubt Shink would land that type of a return. Perhaps with Detroit running into cap trouble there could be an opportunity to take a RW or top prospect off their hands as they need to shed salary/assets? Talking trades with the Flames right now is getting tough, we all know we have few assets left to trade that don't involve our top players/prospects. 

[rickross]

3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Honestly Brouwer is just another BT mistake signing we will end up living with so put him where he can best serve the team.

So far he's been a disappointment but I'll give him this season to prove himself. I just don't think its smart asset management to bury him on the 4th line, not only does that take a spot from a potential prospect but it's a waste of cap and it almost guarantees Brouwer will never be the productive player he has been in the past. He's probably still best suited for 3rd line duties and some 2nd unit PP, still not ideal for his price tag but he'd atleast have more opportunity to be productive in those roles.

[Flyerfan52]

7 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I see where you're going with it, but I just can't because I wonder what the ceiling is for Valamaki. Will it be higher than Armia? Top 4 D are worth a lot and in the future, will Valamaki garner more in a trade? 

 

Will Armia make us full contenders?

 

will that 1st rounder develop as quick as Valamaki? 

 

Will the the jets make the playoffs?

All good questions & all crossed my mind.

 

I was happy when Vlaimaki fell to the Flames as in the draft thread he was 1 that I was big on. Until the Jets traded pick #13 to LV I thought they'd take him.

 

Armia alone won't make us full contenders, No 1 player can.

Odds are whoever is picked in 2018 will take an extra year to develop unless the Jets really run into problems (or win the lottery) resulting in a very high pick. OTH if the Flames use the pick on a forward they tend to have a shorter adjustment.

 

I figure the Jets will make the playoffs unless they run into injury problems or Mason craps the bed. I counted the pick as in the #20 area for this trade but without we don't pick until the 3rd round in what is being hyped as a better draft.

Basically I have the Flames trading a bit of the future for a bit of now & a bit of future.

 

Given the youth of all assets/assets to be it's 1 of those trades where 5 years from there we'll see who came out ahead.

[Flyerfan52]

15 minutes ago, rickross said:

I rather we keep Valimaki and offload one of our 2013 1st rounders like Shink for example. I agree with robrob74 as we just don't know what we have in Valimaki yet. I actually don't mind Armia, there's potential there and i'd love to grab a 1st Rd back from the Jets although I doubt Shink would land that type of a return. Perhaps with Detroit running into cap trouble there could be an opportunity to take a RW or top prospect off their hands as they need to shed salary/assets? Talking trades with the Flames right now is getting tough, we all know we have few assets left to trade that don't involve our top players/prospects. 

The only 2013 pick with value is Monahan.

 

I thought of Kylington & others but the Jets have low caliber D. They wouldn't even do that straight up.

 

The reason I settled on Valimaki is that like all 1st rounders there is still that aura. Kind of like opening a Christmas present since you don't know what you're getting.

 

You have to give to get so that's about the only trade there I saw.

***************************************************************************************

With Detroit there are Tatar (5.3 x 4) & Nyqvist (4.75 x 2) but the can't take back salary so even if we had the assets we couldn't afford them.

[Flyerfan52]

21 minutes ago, rickross said:

So far he's been a disappointment but I'll give him this season to prove himself. I just don't think its smart asset management to bury him on the 4th line, not only does that take a spot from a potential prospect but it's a waste of cap and it almost guarantees Brouwer will never be the productive player he has been in the past. He's probably still best suited for 3rd line duties and some 2nd unit PP, still not ideal for his price tag but he'd atleast have more opportunity to be productive in those roles.

Options are retain salary to trade him (it's the $s that make him unattractive) , buy him out (but between him & the replacement there's no saving) or bite the bullet & play him on the 4th if he doesn't produce on higher lines.

I hope it becomes moot & he plays like what BT thought he was getting.

[robrob74]

22 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

All good questions & all crossed my mind.

 

I was happy when Vlaimaki fell to the Flames as in the draft thread he was 1 that I was big on. Until the Jets traded pick #13 to LV I thought they'd take him.

 

Armia alone won't make us full contenders, No 1 player can.

Odds are whoever is picked in 2018 will take an extra year to develop unless the Jets really run into problems (or win the lottery) resulting in a very high pick. OTH if the Flames use the pick on a forward they tend to have a shorter adjustment.

 

I figure the Jets will make the playoffs unless they run into injury problems or Mason craps the bed. I counted the pick as in the #20 area for this trade but without we don't pick until the 3rd round in what is being hyped as a better draft.

Basically I have the Flames trading a bit of the future for a bit of now & a bit of future.

 

Given the youth of all assets/assets to be it's 1 of those trades where 5 years from there we'll see who came out ahead.

 

 

It's a tough call. In about 5 years we need to figure out what we have in our players and start to regenerate - re-tool the team. For me, is the #20 worth it as I was quite happy valamaki fell to us as well. But it's pretty much the same place/pick, only a year later. I have a feeling that Valamaki will be a gooder. Maybe I am wrong, I haven't even seen the kid play yet. 

 

As for contender, I just, meant, with all that we have, we have 1 or 2 more additions to put us in that status. For me, it's either Backlund staying as is, with Tkachuk or Bennett taking a huge step. Which means, not this season, but in a year from now. 

 

Good question. I read the part of using Kylington. Are the Jets really high on Armia?

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

The only 2013 pick with value is Monahan.

 

I thought of Kylington & others but the Jets have low caliber D. They wouldn't even do that straight up.

 

The reason I settled on Valimaki is that like all 1st rounders there is still that aura. Kind of like opening a Christmas present since you don't know what you're getting.

 

You have to give to get so that's about the only trade there I saw.

***************************************************************************************

With Detroit there are Tatar (5.3 x 4) & Nyqvist (4.75 x 2) but the can't take back salary so even if we had the assets we couldn't afford them.

 

It's more of a savings bond than a present.  I know its a few years from knowing what the value of the player will be, but I think he may be a top pairing guy by the time Gio starts fading.  I don't give up on that for a guy that could become a good NHL player.  If I'm giving up Juuso,  I want Little back.

 

I think perhaps that ARI would be a better trading partner.  They have prospects and young NHL'ers but not much else.  Maybe they would be interested in Reider for Stajan + a prospect.